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I don't often 7pool, but occasionally, it's something I like to do on ZvP or ZvT (random player, silver league), especially on a map like Steppes.
This is my 7pool (which I'm pretty sure is the standard 7pool)
6/10 drone
7/10 pool
6/10 drone
7/10 overlord
When pool finishes, I will have 3 larvae and exactly 155 minerals, make the 6 lings
Next larva is another 2 zerglings
If I don't win (early wall off), I find myself in a position where I'm not exactly behind by a lot. Something I've been trying is an early expand after this, roughly on 18. Because I have 8 lings out, I can easily defend and get that early queen out as well.
This is the only replay I have of it saved, but I've had a few more successful recoveries. I would say to ignore my awful, awful zerg, but you can't. I've gotten better since then though
7pool into Fast Expand, Terrible Macro
Basically I'm trying to refine it into something where I can apply very early pressure, yet not be put behind economically. I made too many lings that game initially. I generally only make 8 and if I don't get through, I immediately drone up and get my queen.
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A better 7 pool build is:
6 drone
7 pool
6 drone
7 drone
8 drone
9 double extractor trick + 3 lings
12 overlord
12 drone
13 queen
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6-pool would be more viable.. you'll get the lings out quicker than 7, giving you time to delay say a barracks or sniping workers/pylons. Also not sure I agree with an overlord at 7, since you will probably not be needing an OL if you do extractor tricks.
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Just honestly mass drone while keeping an eye on the opponent. Keep lings outside his base and drone up hard. If you did enough damage with the 6-7 pool, play it normally except with all the timings distorted. Just scout scout scout and you should be able to macro back into a normal game.
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On February 02 2011 14:09 SergioCQH wrote:
A better 7 pool build is:
6 drone
7 pool
6 drone
7 drone
8 drone
9 double extractor trick + 3 lings
12 overlord
12 drone
13 queen
I have tried that and I probably should switch over to that. The one reason I liked the overlord on 7, is because it allowed me to stream 26 lings into his base before my next overlord. Especially great against a Protoss. Of course, the 26 lings is an all in.
Thanks, I'll probably switch over to that. What's the best next step to that? Fast expand? Or just start droning up?
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6 or 7 pool is pretty much a cheese in my book, because unless you do enough damage, you'll be greatly behind economically, and you would have to just outclass your opponent to beat him. If you do enough damage, then you just play it out normally, as said before, make sure to scout cause he might do some timing attack because he feels behind. I feel 10 pool is the exact same purpose that you're trying to do. 10 pool is definitely viable at the lower levels, and its pretty much the same thing except you have more drones, lings hit when his gate is about ~10 seconds after its done (map dependent)
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I really only do this on Steppes. The next step is to fast expand to the gold base and fast tech to hydras and go with a hydra/ling composition.
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On February 02 2011 14:09 SergioCQH wrote:
A better 7 pool build is:
6 drone
7 pool
6 drone
7 drone
8 drone
9 double extractor trick + 3 lings
12 overlord
12 drone
13 queen
that build sounds genious...
the next step is expand to the gold? fantastic. im speechless, how do you come up with something like this?
you do it only on steppes? nice.
one thing though, why go Hydra Ling after? I don't understand this last part, I could see it happening in some games where you scout and see a starport, but wouldnt ling baneling be A LOT more effective for defending a 4 warpgate? or roaches even? either seem like a way more solid choice (depending on what your opponent does) also if you stay on ling baneling for long enough, woudln't u say getting a spire might be the safest in case they go 1 or 2 base colossus?
sorry if i have so many questions, im noob and really like the build you came up with.
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On February 02 2011 14:46 CatZ.root wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:09 SergioCQH wrote:
A better 7 pool build is:
6 drone
7 pool
6 drone
7 drone
8 drone
9 double extractor trick + 3 lings
12 overlord
12 drone
13 queen that build sounds genious... the next step is expand to the gold? fantastic. im speechless, how do you come up with something like this? you do it only on steppes? nice. one thing though, why go Hydra Ling after? I don't understand this last part, I could see it happening in some games where you scout and see a starport, but wouldnt ling baneling be A LOT more effective for defending a 4 warpgate? or roaches even? either seem like a way more solid choice (depending on what your opponent does) also if you stay on ling baneling for long enough, woudln't u say getting a spire might be the safest in case they go 1 or 2 base colossus? sorry if i have so many questions, im noob and really like the build you came up with.
Be Nice 
In any case, to the OP, the advice given above by Catz is solid.
P.S. First Post!
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7pool on Steppes is a great ZvP opening, it denies any efforts for aggressive play as even the most aggressive protoss play won't hit you before your pool is done. You only have to do, I believe, 400 minerals of damage to be ahead with the build, and if you force a forge and a cannon, there's 300 of those minerals right there. Add in the inevitable couple probe kills and its fine. That said, I might be wrong on that mineral number, it could be higher.
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I prefer 8 pool, slightly delays the pool but even if you do a little damage, you can be on par with your opponent. Its a bit more economic, and a lot less all-in. it still generally gets to the enemy before they have zealots out i think.
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CatZ, I know it's your build. I like to go hydras because it's safer if protoss techs to air. When I do this build, I skip ling speed and tech straight up to lair after expanding to the gold. Usually, protoss responds to the 7 pool by sealing off with a forge and cannon. So kill the scouting probe and toss won't have any idea what you're doing. Core and warpgates will be delayed enough for fast hydras plus lings to hold off a push.
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On February 02 2011 15:47 SergioCQH wrote:
CatZ, I know it's your build. I like to go hydras because it's safer if protoss techs to air. When I do this build, I skip ling speed and tech straight up to lair after expanding to the gold. Usually, protoss responds to the 7 pool by sealing off with a forge and cannon. So kill the scouting probe and toss won't have any idea what you're doing. Core and warpgates will be delayed enough for fast hydras plus lings to hold off a push.
ok, as you long as you know its my build. problem with going hydra too fast is you'll die to a properly executed 4warpgate or even 1 base or 2 base colossus, you need to sac an overlord to decide what you're going for. also A LOT of people dont get a forge to deal with this, its not really nessesary.
dual 10gate is probably the best blind counter to the build, alongside with going straight for the gold with Protoss units, its a good build, your eco won't suffer and you can't really put numbers on map control, I really hate it when people say stuff like "you just need to do 400minerals worth of damage to break even" (no offense to you sir im sure your intentions are good)
builds are builds, there doesnt need to be math on every single step, some builds make 'less sense' when you put math in them. i personally am not worried if i can do 0 damage with this 7 pool. the transition gives me map control and unless blindly countered, it wins almost every game when you make the right desicions, based on scouting information.
anyways, done here, i go watch tv, cyuuu
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CatZ, what would your transition be in answer to a 4gate, or colossus push?
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On February 02 2011 23:32 Metaspace wrote:
CatZ, what would your transition be in answer to a 4gate, or colossus push?
Read his post. He just gave you the answers on that.
Although i love the creativity in how catz plays. I still find that these types of plays are really weak. The thing with this build is that it gives you is controll over the game pace in trade of less eco. If u manage to get ahead than your opponent made a big mistake. If u manage to get even you did rly well, but imo if both players play perfect you should be behind; meaning that this build is simply relying on bad play. Sure, the game is new and ppl still need to find out if zerg should be aggresive in any way at all, but if you cant play a normal solid play then you'll never get real good.
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steppes is a special case; but on other maps I found with an 8 pool you can usually do enough damage to pull even, or way ahead if they do not respond correctly*. the 6 lings get there before the zealot is out, you can usually pick off a building at the wall. I like it because it delays warp tech enough that you can drone like crazy AND survive a 4 gate (you have more drones at the time the 4gate comes compared to a "standard" opening); and it's also easy to hold off zealot heavy followups with banelings (thanks Catz!)
the BO i use is:
8pool
9overlord
9 lings (6 lings)
14queen
16gas
and then drone hard.
* I think the best response i faced with this is a standard zealot-wall but going 2nd gate before cyber (at the wall). you might or might not get in before the first zealot pops but the double gate pumping zealots will not allow you to deal much damage even when you are inside, and his warp tech is not delayed by a lot compared to a forge defense making the 4gate followup stronger.
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I've been doing this in ZvP since the Zealot build-time nerf and I consider it to be safe enough to be my standard opening on every map. There isn't a single map in the current pool that has a rush distance too far, not even cross pos metal. The hardest map to do this properly on is Delta Quadrant just because your Overlord is useless when it comes to scouting.
My prefered follow up is expo into +1 speedlings. I don't have to worry about air as neither phoenix nor void rays are particularly good at killing zerglings, so I will get a few queens and spore crawlers since I already have the evo chamber, and just go kill him because he has no ground army (sometimes he does have enough cannons and sentries to hold me off, so its not ALWAYS possible)
The best response by Protoss seems to be a 2 gate with immediate Zealot pressure ASAP, I'm still not 100% sure how to handle this if I mess up with my lings early on.
I even dubbed it the "Fail Pool" and wrote a liquipedia article on it.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Fail_Pool_Rush_(vs_Protoss)
I have a variation I do in ZvZ that involves a failed spine crawler rush, but would not recommend any 7-pool variation vs Terran. 2 rax + supply depot blind counters this and if you don't do SOME damage you are so far behind it's almost impossible to recover.
edit: I see CatZ hates the "400 min worth of damage" and that is something I came up with in my article.
I can agree with him though that the numbers are secondary to just having a good feel of the situation. Part of that "damage" can be Zealots, a forge, and cannons. So long as he can't actively use those resources to hit you back, you're in the lead without killing a single thing.
another edit:
On February 02 2011 14:09 SergioCQH wrote:
A better 7 pool build is:
6 drone
7 pool
6 drone
7 drone
8 drone
9 double extractor trick + 3 lings
12 overlord
12 drone
13 queen
There is a HUGE difference between my fail pool and this 7-pool.
My version is more economical as you already have your overlord ready for drone pumping and you don't need to waste the time/money on a double extractor trick.
The only advantage the double extractor trick gets you over an 8 overlord is that your 5-6 lings will be with the first 4 instead of slightly after.
Not worth it IMO.
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Your fail pool doesn't give an early queen. That queen is crucial for the mass drone follow up. By droning up from 6 to 9 instead of making an overlord, you stock up enough minerals to begin a queen immediately after the overlord pops. CatZ's build also uses larva much more efficiently by building drones from 6 to 9 and using double extractor trick instead of saving up for an overlord at 8.
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I played with early queen vs early hatch quite a bit and I found the early hatch to be better in pretty much every way possible. It gives you faster creep so you can get a crawler down there sooner. it lets you maynard drones earlier, and you can't really afford the extra larva anyway if you want both the queen and the hatch.
If you were staying on one base and going for a roach follow-up I could see the argument for a queen, but if a hatch is desired at <18 supply, I don't see why you need the queen so early.
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On February 03 2011 00:34 Jermstuddog wrote:I've been doing this in ZvP since the Zealot build-time nerf and I consider it to be safe enough to be my standard opening on every map. There isn't a single map in the current pool that has a rush distance too far, not even cross pos metal. The hardest map to do this properly on is Delta Quadrant just because your Overlord is useless when it comes to scouting. My prefered follow up is expo into +1 speedlings. I don't have to worry about air as neither phoenix nor void rays are particularly good at killing zerglings, so I will get a few queens and spore crawlers since I already have the evo chamber, and just go kill him because he has no ground army (sometimes he does have enough cannons and sentries to hold me off, so its not ALWAYS possible) The best response by Protoss seems to be a 2 gate with immediate Zealot pressure ASAP, I'm still not 100% sure how to handle this if I mess up with my lings early on. I even dubbed it the "Fail Pool" and wrote a liquipedia article on it. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Fail_Pool_Rush_(vs_Protoss)I have a variation I do in ZvZ that involves a failed spine crawler rush, but would not recommend any 7-pool variation vs Terran. 2 rax + supply depot blind counters this and if you don't do SOME damage you are so far behind it's almost impossible to recover. edit: I see CatZ hates the "400 min worth of damage" and that is something I came up with in my article. I can agree with him though that the numbers are secondary to just having a good feel of the situation. Part of that "damage" can be Zealots, a forge, and cannons. So long as he can't actively use those resources to hit you back, you're in the lead without killing a single thing. another edit: Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:09 SergioCQH wrote:
A better 7 pool build is:
6 drone
7 pool
6 drone
7 drone
8 drone
9 double extractor trick + 3 lings
12 overlord
12 drone
13 queen There is a HUGE difference between my fail pool and this 7-pool. My version is more economical as you already have your overlord ready for drone pumping and you don't need to waste the time/money on a double extractor trick. The only advantage the double extractor trick gets you over an 8 overlord is that your 5-6 lings will be with the first 4 instead of slightly after. Not worth it IMO.
mistaken, with double extractor trick, you have 9 drones mining AND 6 zerglings at the speed of a 7 pool, also the timing is perfect as you get an overlord right after your lings and a really fast queen. you also don't waste any larva. you don't need the overlord to 'pump drones right away' because you can't afford to, but as soon as the overlord pops out, you have enough to start making drones ONE BY ONE. (when i say u can't make drones i mean me, I mean YOU can but that's because u have no queen until later)
theorycraft is a wonderful thing, I can see you put a lot of time and effort in working on this build using sick math and writing skills and I admire you for that, yes there is a HUGE difference between your 'fail pool' (cute name) and my 7 pool. mine beats world class players all the time
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I've seen CatZ go 7pool to gold expo and ling baneling and crush a toss warpgate army. Blings morphed for however many zelots they have and lings for the stalkers. Was great. CatZ is made of awesome.
I love going a 7pool on toss for the reason of map control. It's great. And sometimes they just dont wall off and you can snipe the pylon that powers the gateways and it's a free win. Not allin in my books as I have a next step to expo and drone like crazy as toss is stuck in their base. Keep speedling pressure on them expanding and delay it as long as possible while I'm hopefully taking a quick 3rd. Works on my friend every time on 2player maps that have med/short rush distances.
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On February 03 2011 07:31 CatZ.root wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 00:34 Jermstuddog wrote:I've been doing this in ZvP since the Zealot build-time nerf and I consider it to be safe enough to be my standard opening on every map. There isn't a single map in the current pool that has a rush distance too far, not even cross pos metal. The hardest map to do this properly on is Delta Quadrant just because your Overlord is useless when it comes to scouting. My prefered follow up is expo into +1 speedlings. I don't have to worry about air as neither phoenix nor void rays are particularly good at killing zerglings, so I will get a few queens and spore crawlers since I already have the evo chamber, and just go kill him because he has no ground army (sometimes he does have enough cannons and sentries to hold me off, so its not ALWAYS possible) The best response by Protoss seems to be a 2 gate with immediate Zealot pressure ASAP, I'm still not 100% sure how to handle this if I mess up with my lings early on. I even dubbed it the "Fail Pool" and wrote a liquipedia article on it. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Fail_Pool_Rush_(vs_Protoss)I have a variation I do in ZvZ that involves a failed spine crawler rush, but would not recommend any 7-pool variation vs Terran. 2 rax + supply depot blind counters this and if you don't do SOME damage you are so far behind it's almost impossible to recover. edit: I see CatZ hates the "400 min worth of damage" and that is something I came up with in my article. I can agree with him though that the numbers are secondary to just having a good feel of the situation. Part of that "damage" can be Zealots, a forge, and cannons. So long as he can't actively use those resources to hit you back, you're in the lead without killing a single thing. another edit: On February 02 2011 14:09 SergioCQH wrote:
A better 7 pool build is:
6 drone
7 pool
6 drone
7 drone
8 drone
9 double extractor trick + 3 lings
12 overlord
12 drone
13 queen There is a HUGE difference between my fail pool and this 7-pool. My version is more economical as you already have your overlord ready for drone pumping and you don't need to waste the time/money on a double extractor trick. The only advantage the double extractor trick gets you over an 8 overlord is that your 5-6 lings will be with the first 4 instead of slightly after. Not worth it IMO. mistaken, with double extractor trick, you have 9 drones mining AND 6 zerglings at the speed of a 7 pool, also the timing is perfect as you get an overlord right after your lings and a really fast queen. you also don't waste any larva. you don't need the overlord to 'pump drones right away' because you can't afford to, but as soon as the overlord pops out, you have enough to start making drones ONE BY ONE. (when i say u can't make drones i mean me, I mean YOU can but that's because u have no queen until later) theorycraft is a wonderful thing, I can see you put a lot of time and effort in working on this build using sick math and writing skills and I admire you for that, yes there is a HUGE difference between your 'fail pool' (cute name) and my 7 pool. mine beats world class players all the time
A lot of sting in that response CatZ, kinda hurts.
I don't much appreciate the insinuation of "theorycraft and sick math skills". I arrived at my conclusion much the same way you did yours, by refining the build over and over against the best competition I can find.
None-the-less, I will go ahead and re-evaluate my analysis of the follow-up options to see if I had missed something before, because I, much like you, believe the build to be completely viable and am trying to do my part to open eyes on how to take control of the early game with Zerg aggression, sorry I don't have the backing of a pro team...
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On February 03 2011 23:44 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 07:31 CatZ.root wrote:On February 03 2011 00:34 Jermstuddog wrote:I've been doing this in ZvP since the Zealot build-time nerf and I consider it to be safe enough to be my standard opening on every map. There isn't a single map in the current pool that has a rush distance too far, not even cross pos metal. The hardest map to do this properly on is Delta Quadrant just because your Overlord is useless when it comes to scouting. My prefered follow up is expo into +1 speedlings. I don't have to worry about air as neither phoenix nor void rays are particularly good at killing zerglings, so I will get a few queens and spore crawlers since I already have the evo chamber, and just go kill him because he has no ground army (sometimes he does have enough cannons and sentries to hold me off, so its not ALWAYS possible) The best response by Protoss seems to be a 2 gate with immediate Zealot pressure ASAP, I'm still not 100% sure how to handle this if I mess up with my lings early on. I even dubbed it the "Fail Pool" and wrote a liquipedia article on it. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Fail_Pool_Rush_(vs_Protoss)I have a variation I do in ZvZ that involves a failed spine crawler rush, but would not recommend any 7-pool variation vs Terran. 2 rax + supply depot blind counters this and if you don't do SOME damage you are so far behind it's almost impossible to recover. edit: I see CatZ hates the "400 min worth of damage" and that is something I came up with in my article. I can agree with him though that the numbers are secondary to just having a good feel of the situation. Part of that "damage" can be Zealots, a forge, and cannons. So long as he can't actively use those resources to hit you back, you're in the lead without killing a single thing. another edit: On February 02 2011 14:09 SergioCQH wrote:
A better 7 pool build is:
6 drone
7 pool
6 drone
7 drone
8 drone
9 double extractor trick + 3 lings
12 overlord
12 drone
13 queen There is a HUGE difference between my fail pool and this 7-pool. My version is more economical as you already have your overlord ready for drone pumping and you don't need to waste the time/money on a double extractor trick. The only advantage the double extractor trick gets you over an 8 overlord is that your 5-6 lings will be with the first 4 instead of slightly after. Not worth it IMO. mistaken, with double extractor trick, you have 9 drones mining AND 6 zerglings at the speed of a 7 pool, also the timing is perfect as you get an overlord right after your lings and a really fast queen. you also don't waste any larva. you don't need the overlord to 'pump drones right away' because you can't afford to, but as soon as the overlord pops out, you have enough to start making drones ONE BY ONE. (when i say u can't make drones i mean me, I mean YOU can but that's because u have no queen until later) theorycraft is a wonderful thing, I can see you put a lot of time and effort in working on this build using sick math and writing skills and I admire you for that, yes there is a HUGE difference between your 'fail pool' (cute name) and my 7 pool. mine beats world class players all the time A lot of sting in that response CatZ, kinda hurts. I don't much appreciate the insinuation of "theorycraft and sick math skills". I arrived at my conclusion much the same way you did yours, by refining the build over and over against the best competition I can find. None-the-less, I will go ahead and re-evaluate my analysis of the follow-up options to see if I had missed something before, because I, much like you, believe the build to be completely viable and am trying to do my part to open eyes on how to take control of the early game with Zerg aggression, sorry I don't have the backing of a pro team...
oh no.
"There is a HUGE difference between my fail pool and this 7-pool.
My version is more economical as you already have your overlord ready for drone pumping and you don't need to waste the time/money on a double extractor trick.
The only advantage the double extractor trick gets you over an 8 overlord is that your 5-6 lings will be with the first 4 instead of slightly after.
Not worth it IMO."
you're the one who points out there's a HUGE difference economically speaking. so I am just trying to point you in the right direction, different builds work differently in different situations, I am not saying your 'fail 7-pool' build is bad or anything like that. while you are saying the only advantage my build would have is that your 5th and 6th lings will be with the first 4 instead of slightly after, which is also false, so it makes me think you havent even tried the build?
your 5th and 6th lings are slightly behind your first four depending on what positions you spawn, on the bottom left of steppes it will almost make no difference, while on the top right they'll be slightly behind, this is because of the travel distance of the initial drones, as well as the larva placement the game uses by default.
your version is NOT more economical. you start 'drone pumping' with 1 less drone, altough you WILL have more income in the short run if you put it to the test, you will suffer in the next couple of minutes because you have no queen. and IF you make a queen (and you should) you'll be behind economically. with my 7 pool, you get 9 drones mining, 6 lings harrasssing off of 1 overlord, a couple of seconds after you can make an overlord and RIGHT when the overlord finishes you get 150 for a queen, and never sit on 3 larva to pump mass drones.
what this means is: you are guaranteed to be able to make more drones going into the midgame because you always have enough $ to spend all of your larva incluiding the larva that the queen that you don't have until 20 supply or so gives you. the double extractor trick, barely loses you any time or money, so again, there is no 'sting' intended here, you're the one saying your build is better/more economical than mine and pointing out 'HUGE' differences. for the most part I dislike commenting on the strategy forums for this same reason, I don't like arguing with people here, if i want to talk strategy or efficiency of a build I usually go to a teammate or a friend I consider insightful / good at the game, but given that i was my 7 pool that you were talkin down to, i felt like i had to explain you a few things, hope you understand, no 'sting' or 'hurt' intended, just for the future be more sensitive / careful when talking about someone else's idea or promoting yours, you can easily offend people, much like you were offended by my first reply.
p.s: you said 'sorry i don't have the backing of a pro team' : i don't use my team as test subjects, I use the ladder and then once my build is ready i'll play them / talk to them to see how it really measures up. sure its a nice thing to have, but why aren't you in a pro team then? if you havent been noticed, build your own, that's what I did, 'pro team' didn't magically appear out of no where, i recruited every single one of my team's members.
this is my last response on the thread, if you want to discuss anything else you're more than welcome to send me a PM, cyu
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Treat CatZ points of view as if he was a random dude as the strategy speaks for itself. Just because CatZ is on ROOT doesn't mean his buildorder on a 7pool is any stronger lol. My little sister could do it.
Put the two strats up against eachother and see which one does better for the outcome you want. To me, the build order that has fastest lings out to harrass and ability to gain as much econ as possible after by using larvae the most efficient and making use of a queen will be best. I haven't done the math on the fail pool and the double extractor trick, but from what is said above. Overall the double extractor trick seems better. But I can't say 100% for sure as I said before. Haven't played the numbers game yet. I'm curious now  Someone put these two badboys side by side to see the advantages of both build orders  [I'd do it but I'm at work]
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I will put them to the test and report the results here, hopefully I have time tonight. I have no problem being proven wrong, and from the way CatZ describes things, I apparently missed something in my timing/numbers when I came up with my version of the build.
To CatZ, I really appreciate the responses and input. Pros posting in the strategy forum are few and far between these days, and having insight from such notable, high-level players is way better than a random joe like me. Please don't take my posts as cocky and ignorant, your time is not being wasted with noobs who don't listen. I will put in the work to validate the discussion.
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As a 2700 masters zerg,i 7pool alot. its pool on 7, then drone to 9.
double extractor trick 3 sets of lings, make an overlord --> queen --> expo or whatever.
It's really strong for sure, forces the protoss to be defensive with forge/cannons (only do it against protoss)
It's weakness is stargate for sure, you can't get hydras in time & you dont have money for alot of queens in my experience. But hey, i expand to the gold mostly, if you don't do that, i'm sure you can defend anything with it.
(i don't need to kill anything with this, i just force him to wall himself in, or punish him with the lings)
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On February 04 2011 07:23 VoiceOfDecember wrote:
Treat CatZ points of view as if he was a random dude as the strategy speaks for itself. Just because CatZ is on ROOT doesn't mean his buildorder on a 7pool is any stronger lol. My little sister could do it.
Wow BM... You might find yourself to be successful if you treat CatZ's point of view as one that comes from a progamer that knows what he is talking about. You actually had a top200 post here in the strategy forums that is full of silver league build orders and are telling people to react to him as if he knows nothing? Let's preach respect for those who are more credible than others.
Together we can achieve more.
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On February 03 2011 23:44 Jermstuddog wrote:
I don't much appreciate the insinuation of "theorycraft and sick math skills". I arrived at my conclusion much the same way you did yours, by refining the build over and over against the best competition I can find.
I'll take any bet you want that the best competition you can find doesn't compare in the slightest way to the best competition Catz can find.
...
From other economic experimentation I have done, I know that the speed at which you get a queen matters.
A LOT.
If Catz says he gets a queen significantly faster than you (and there's no reason to assume that he's incorrect about that, since you haven't countered that assertion), then without some demonstration of significant economic superiority in other areas (and the cost of an extractor trick is pretty negligible, so don't expect to be making up the difference there), your build is simply going to be inferior, end of story.
Think about it this way: 11 pool 18 hatch compares quite well economically with HATCH-FIRST builds, simply because of the earlier queen. That's how much the queen matters.
***EDIT***
I just took a look at your "Fail Pool" liquipedia entry, to get a look at some replays to see just how much you're delaying the queen.
So I look for replays in the article, and what do I see? A cast of Root Gaming vs Fnatic, showcasing Catz and his superior 7 pool with the early queen.
Kinda weird to claim one start is superior to another, but then leave only displays of the "inferior" build as video evidence, don't you think?
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Well, anyways I like to use early pools (7pool to be exact) in ZvZ. Im random and I don´t play ladder enough to contribute anything major(chances for ZvZ are quite slim as rdm player).
I feel in ZvZ it gives you huge advantages against hatch first builds and throws most enemies off their game. I only used it in ZvZ so far, because Z can´t defend very cost effective i.e. with a wall-in very early in the game.
Ideal defence would, I think, be a slightly slower pool than the aggressor.
Genuinely didn´t know Catz had a much better version of the thing I do. Will definitely try his version out.
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On February 04 2011 09:42 Skrag wrote:
I just took a look at your "Fail Pool" liquipedia entry, to get a look at some replays to see just how much you're delaying the queen.
So I look for replays in the article, and what do I see? A cast of Root Gaming vs Fnatic, showcasing Catz and his superior 7 pool with the early queen.
Kinda weird to claim one start is superior to another, but then leave only displays of the "inferior" build as video evidence, don't you think?
That was also removed from the article in a recent update, but hasn't been pushed to the stable version. I noticed the difference and figured that whole issue out.
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On February 04 2011 10:19 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 09:42 Skrag wrote:
I just took a look at your "Fail Pool" liquipedia entry, to get a look at some replays to see just how much you're delaying the queen.
So I look for replays in the article, and what do I see? A cast of Root Gaming vs Fnatic, showcasing Catz and his superior 7 pool with the early queen.
Kinda weird to claim one start is superior to another, but then leave only displays of the "inferior" build as video evidence, don't you think? That was also removed from the article in a recent update, but hasn't been pushed to the stable version. I noticed the difference and figured that whole issue out.
So when do you get a queen? I don't see a mention of it anywhere in the first 18 supply, no replays at all, and if you're waiting even that long, there's absolutely no way your version is economically superior as you claim, and in fact fails at its primary stated goal, which is to appear to your opponent as an all-in "but transition quickly into an econ heavy game".
There is really no such thing as an "econ heavy game" without a queen, because queens are better than hatcheries, for half the cost.
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Ok, testing is done.
I can tell you before I even look at the numbers CatZ build is more economical than mine.
As soon as I set down to test them, I noted that he only makes 6 lings compared to my 8. His is exclusively used on 2-player maps like steppes, where a scouting drone is not needed, where as I am willing to do mine on ANY map and ALWAYS send a scouting drone for potential building blocks even if its not needed.
So fundamentally, his build is better economically, the question is then: "How much better? and is it worth it?" I would also like to take this time to point out that the numbers only tell part of the story, and CatZ would agree with me on this point. It is much more important to react to whatever your opponent is doing and plan accordingly, so take the test results with a grain of salt.
Using Steppes, where CatZ would recommend taking a gold as the expo because "there's no reason not to" I suicided all lings made into my easy computer opponents base, then proceeded with my typical follow-up which is mass +1 speedlings and paused the game at 6 minutes.
CatZ Pool
2825 minerals spent on economy
25 drones, with 4 more almost done
spawn larva 1/2 way done
218 minerals and 88 gas banked
20 minerals and 4 gas on the way back
4 overlords
1 queen
1 larva
expo hatch 88% done (would finish at 6:12)
Fail Pool
2425 spent on economy
19 drones, with 1 almost done and 3 more just started
spawn larva not currently up
236 minerals and 32 gas banked
12 minerals and 4 gas on the way back
3 overlords
1 queen
2 larva
expo hatch is completely done (finished at 5:19)
Key Differences
CatZ Advantages
6 more Drones
an Overlord
294 minerals
56 gas
1/2 a Spawn Larva
Fail Advantages
expo hatch is complete 54 seconds sooner
1 larva
Now we already said the numbers don't tell the whole story, and we have a run into a lot of small issues when trying to interpret these numbers anyway.
I would say it's safe to say that my build has the potential to do more damage than CatZ's version due to the scouting drone and 2 extra lings. Neither build intends to win the game right then and there, but more probes dead = less drones needed for an economic advantage. Can you put this into numbers? ... Not really... The amount of probes you kill depends entirely on how your opponent chooses to defend and how successful that defense is. The entire point of the build is that there is no GOOD option for Protoss to defend a 7 pool, they all have drawbacks.
Some of those defenses can leave their probes completely untouched while crippling their army production capabilities. Other defenses can leave their army production facilities perfectly intact while they throw away 6-8 probes in the choke point while they wait for their Zealots, sometimes when they get those Zealots, they keep them in their choke, other times, they blindly attack into your base, still other variations will leave them with no losses, but a currently useless forge and cannon, sometimes you break through their defense and kill more probes than you set out to. All of these variances lead to very different follow ups, in the case of my build, sometimes I have 8 Zerglings left, sometimes I have 0, this changes when you want to build your overlords, queen, hatchery, and extractor.
Going back to the questions of "How much better? and is it worth it?"
My final input on it is: umm... I'm not sure... I am happy to concede that I was flat out wrong. His build is just better economically, but is the earlier queen and 6 more drones worth more than the earlier hatch and stronger pressure?
I guess that's up to the user.
P.S
for the record, in this particular trial, my queen is built on 15 supply.
obligatory replays:
Fail Pool
http://www.nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=106
Catz Pool
http://www.nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=105
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^ Looking at the above post the CatZ build is clearly superior, I don't really see what you are even arguing? And how do you deal more dmg in comparison to CatZ's build? Makes no sense.
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It's very possible that it won't deal more damage, it all depends on how your opponent reacts, but simple math would say that a possible hero drone blocking a pylon and 2 extra lings COULD kill an extra probe or two.
As far as it being superior, it very well could be but I'm not sure if 6 drones is better than 55 seconds of 2 base mining... I guess assuming the drone advantage sticks then it is better all-around.
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6 drones (which is actually closer to 10-11 based on "almost done" vs "just started" and spawn larva being halfway done) is worth a *lot*, and I also don't see where you're getting a 6 mineral advantage for your build vs catz. To me it looks like you're about 400 minerals behind, not 6 ahead.
Which, if true, is hardly a good trade for the ability to have 2 extra lings out, and a slightly faster hatch that you're not going to be able to use to full potential anyway, because you're so far behind on minerals.
To think about it another way, right at that particular point in time, catz is mining a full 25% more minerals than you are, and that is a gap that you will most likely *never* be able to close completely, and in fact, that advantage alone probably builds on itself for the rest of the game.
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On February 04 2011 12:10 Skrag wrote:
6 drones (which is actually closer to 10-11 based on "almost done" vs "just started" and spawn larva being halfway done, is worth a *lot*, and I also don't see where you're getting a 6 mineral advantage for your build vs catz. To me it looks like you're about 400 minerals behind, not 6 ahead.
Which, if true, is hardly a good trade for the ability to have 2 extra lings out, and a slightly faster hatch that you're not going to be able to use to full potential anyway, because you're so far behind on minerals.
To think about it another way, right at that particular point in time, catz is mining a full 25% more minerals than you are, and that is a gap that you will most likely *never* be able to close completely, and in fact, that advantage alone probably builds on itself for the rest of the game.
minerals MINED it is behind, I am giving you current numbers at the 6 minute mark which has my banked minerals 6 above his.
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On February 04 2011 12:10 Jermstuddog wrote:
It's very possible that it won't deal more damage, it all depends on how your opponent reacts, but simple math would say that a possible hero drone blocking a pylon and 2 extra lings COULD kill an extra probe or two.
As far as it being superior, it very well could be but I'm not sure if 6 drones is better than 55 seconds of 2 base mining... I guess assuming the drone advantage sticks then it is better all-around.
There is zero advantage to having X drones mining 2 bases instead of 1 unless X is greater than 16 (2 per patch mines exactly as efficiently as one), and even then, the difference is pretty small. Certainly not anything that would be worth 400 minerals and 10-11 drones.
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On February 04 2011 12:11 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 12:10 Skrag wrote:
6 drones (which is actually closer to 10-11 based on "almost done" vs "just started" and spawn larva being halfway done, is worth a *lot*, and I also don't see where you're getting a 6 mineral advantage for your build vs catz. To me it looks like you're about 400 minerals behind, not 6 ahead.
Which, if true, is hardly a good trade for the ability to have 2 extra lings out, and a slightly faster hatch that you're not going to be able to use to full potential anyway, because you're so far behind on minerals.
To think about it another way, right at that particular point in time, catz is mining a full 25% more minerals than you are, and that is a gap that you will most likely *never* be able to close completely, and in fact, that advantage alone probably builds on itself for the rest of the game. minerals MINED it is behind, I am giving you current numbers at the 6 minute mark which has my banked minerals 6 above his.
Which is a completely irrelevant number, and very misleading of you to even state.
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On February 04 2011 12:12 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 12:11 Jermstuddog wrote:On February 04 2011 12:10 Skrag wrote:
6 drones (which is actually closer to 10-11 based on "almost done" vs "just started" and spawn larva being halfway done, is worth a *lot*, and I also don't see where you're getting a 6 mineral advantage for your build vs catz. To me it looks like you're about 400 minerals behind, not 6 ahead.
Which, if true, is hardly a good trade for the ability to have 2 extra lings out, and a slightly faster hatch that you're not going to be able to use to full potential anyway, because you're so far behind on minerals.
To think about it another way, right at that particular point in time, catz is mining a full 25% more minerals than you are, and that is a gap that you will most likely *never* be able to close completely, and in fact, that advantage alone probably builds on itself for the rest of the game. minerals MINED it is behind, I am giving you current numbers at the 6 minute mark which has my banked minerals 6 above his. Which is a completely irrelevant number, and very misleading of you to even state.
Reworded then. It's not my intent to mislead or justify those differences, just to state them for your interpretation.
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Besides some hot blood in between, I like the analysis (and the discussion of the topic in general).
It gave me interesting insights into the finer details of 7pool.
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So, here's my final input for the thread.
I did some playing around with the timings and changing around the details in real games.
--I can say without a doubt that queen first is just hands down better than hatch first.
The money feels the same until about the 8 minute mark, where I just find that I have hundreds of extra minerals. I was stopping too early in my test here. Always follow a 7 pool with a queen immediately.
--Another thing I played with was double extractor trick on 9 vs 8 OV. This one is kinda funky...
The 8 OV actually gets you an extra drone while the double extractor gets you extra money due to that 9th drone. After factoring in the cost of the drone, the double extractor is still ahead by about 80 minerals, that drone does a LOT of mining in his time. Still this CAN be used if you want a bigger rush.
The double extractor trick is limited to 6 lings, there's really no way to get more lings out of it, with an 8 OV you could have 8 or 10. I'm still not sure which version I prefer.
--Finally, I decided to find out how much my hero drone costs me.
I'm keeping him I think, he's won me too many games right then and there. Sending a drone to scout while your lings spawn on a map like steppes of war will cost you another 100 minerals. To me, personally, this is totally worth it, even if my drone does nothing but poke up their ramp and head back home because there's nothing for him to do there, the simple potential that my drone could block that 1 pylon P hasn't put down to finish his wall is enough for me to spend that drone every game.
Overall, I'm going to have to rewrite my Fail Pool BO, but I'm not sure exactly how I want to do it yet... Testing this out was a pretty good task to show me the inefficiencies of my specific choices, and will make my build even stronger.
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It´s always nice to see new things learned :D
I personally am of the opinion that sending more than 6 quick lings is turning a 7pool into an allin. You do more damage with 6 lings the earlier they arrive, that´s the whole point of this strategy. I don´t see the significance of sending more lings as opposed to making drones while attacking.
The only reason I can think of is if you´re able to outright kill your opponent if you churn out more lings.
You would at least need to do much much more damage with 8-10 lings than with 6 lings, as
you are 1-2 drones behind the 6 ling variant.
Hero drone is hero though. Scouting + guaranteeing damage with the 6 ling task force just sounds more awesome than blindly doing the build.
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EPT
