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On June 26 2013 21:33 HBmaKro wrote:
After years of playing Masters Terran, I've decided to switch to Zerg. Can anyone recommend good, basic/beginner Zerg builds for me?
You picked a very odd time to switch...
Anyway, here are some basic builds. I would say that the most "standard" opener is 14pool 15hatch. I don't know how basic you want this, because I'm definitely not masters league, but here it is.
ZvZ
A lot of options here. 6-9pool cheese, 10pool bane all-in, 14pool 15 hatch, 15hatch before pool. You probably want to mine at least 100 gas for ling speed or a new build is to skip ling speed and go right into lair and speed roaches, and then hit a +1 timing. In the mid-lategame you can go mutas or not go mutas, you can go 1/1 lings or you can go mass roach. With mass roach you may want to add infestors, hydras, or banelings, depending on what your opponent does.
ZvT
I pretty much always go 15hatch first. Terrans have been putting bunkers in my natural lately but it's never been a problem with hatch first. Then you want a roach warren around 6 minutes and you can either roach/bane all-in or get double evo and melee upgrades, make mutas and/or take a third.
ZvP
14pool into 15hatch is safe in case of cannon rushes. Though you can usually just take your third instead of your natural if you get blocked going hatch first. Then the basic build paths against protoss are either roach/hydra, swarmhost corruptor, or upgraded lings and tech into ultra. Mutas can be hard for them to deal with too.
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i have a ZERG question.
i noticed at the Homestorycup at the TLO vs Hyun 3rd place match,
they both were about 52-54 drones on 4 hatch 200 supply. is it common in ZvZ not to have many drones when maxed? like 75 or something in ZvT or ZvP. and if so, what is the reason behind it to have 20 less drones?
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United States193 Posts
On June 27 2013 11:47 ypslala wrote:
i have a ZERG question.
i noticed at the Homestorycup at the TLO vs Hyun 3rd place match,
they both were about 52-54 drones on 4 hatch 200 supply. is it common in ZvZ not to have many drones when maxed? like 75 or something in ZvT or ZvP. and if so, what is the reason behind it to have 20 less drones?
Yes, very common. Every drone costs supply, and every supply used on a drone is a supply not used on your main army. Once you are maxed out as Zerg and starting to build a bank of minerals, gas, and larvae, having the same income as in the mid-game is simply not necessary. Having a bank like that is only useful for the remax, the extra 20-30 drones of income are only making your bank larger and harder to spend completely on the remax, so the supply is better spent on a little extra army.
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I am a low masters terran. When I send my MMM out, I usually send out 1 marines, stimmed ahead of my army. This allows me to prepare for anything that might be ahead - be it tanks, banelings, etc.
What is the exact keystrokes that you guys use.
Right now, I am very inefficient at it. I stim one marines, send it out on move command (opposed to A move). Wait till the marine is out of the screen (otherwise, it gets selected when I control click marines). Control click a marines and a maurader. Rebind to hotkey.
This seems very inefficient. Any other way to do it?
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When destroying upgrade buildings, does it cancel all previously tech? So if you kill of a tech building do you need to the tech over again?
+ Show Spoiler +Sorry for grammar, English not native langue plus I'm drunk.
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On June 28 2013 01:22 Marchinko wrote:When destroying upgrade buildings, does it cancel all previously tech? So if you kill of a tech building do you need to the tech over again? + Show Spoiler +Sorry for grammar, English not native langue plus I'm drunk.
Here are examples of how it works. If you kill a spire, the Zerg an no longer make mutalisks until the spire is rebuilt. If you kill a lair but not the spire, the Zerg can still make mutalisks because the spire is still there. Lastly, If you kill a spawning pool and zergling speed was already researched, the zerglings will still have the speed upgrade even though they can't build zerglings.
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On June 28 2013 01:33 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 01:22 Marchinko wrote:When destroying upgrade buildings, does it cancel all previously tech? So if you kill of a tech building do you need to the tech over again? + Show Spoiler +Sorry for grammar, English not native langue plus I'm drunk. Here are examples of how it works. If you kill a spire, the Zerg an no longer make mutalisks until the spire is rebuilt. If you kill a lair but not the spire, the Zerg can still make mutalisks because the spire is still there. Lastly, If you kill a spawning pool and zergling speed was already researched, the zerglings will still have the speed upgrade even though they can't build zerglings.
That answers my question. Upgrades stay. Thanks...
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I've been playing a fair bit of 2v2, as P&T, and we were stumped by T&Z going mass reapers to contain, only to expand behind it. Anytime we'd try to move out, they'd either force our army back to defend, or eventually combine the reapers with lings to crush the push.
What's the correct response? I have no problems dealing with reapers in 1v1, but not when there's a zerg macroing behind them.
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ayo, just got sc2 about a week ago and i'm still learning the game and stuff. i've got a question for terran that'll probably sound stupid but..
when am i supposed to expand?
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You can do a 1 base all in which means you build an army right away. You don't expand and just build units. When you have enough around the 30-50 supply mark, you go and attack.
The safer and more common thing to do is to expand pretty much right away. You make a marine or 2 and a bunker. Then, expand right away. The bunker should be good enough to hold back the enemy. But, you constantly scout them to see if you should be making more men or defenses.
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On June 28 2013 03:19 perspicaciousinnate wrote:
You can do a 1 base all in which means you build an army right away. You don't expand and just build units. When you have enough around the 30-50 supply mark, you go and attack.
The safer and more common thing to do is to expand pretty much right away. You make a marine or 2 and a bunker. Then, expand right away. The bunker should be good enough to hold back the enemy. But, you constantly scout them to see if you should be making more men or defenses.
thanks a lot
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my understanding of mineral saturation is:
-each worker you add to a base with 15 or fewer workers already on it adds a normal amount of income
-each worker you add to a base with 16-23 workers already on it adds less income
considering this, in a PvX where you're on 2 bases and will be for the near future, is there any reason NOT to go up to 24 (or at least continue probing until you expand) on each base? the idea being that even if those workers are adding less income, they are still adding income, and if/when you go up to 3 base you'll have those extra probes instantly available to transfer. the reason i say PvX specifically is because terran gets mules and drones cost larvae, so protoss seems like it would benefit most from having that "pre-saturation"
the only reason i can think of is that pro builds are so precise and delicate that they don't want to risk having fewer units in an engagement/slowing down their tech to be greedy, especially in PvP. but probes are so cheap, have their own production and add exponential economy, so it seems like it could be worth it. i'm just speculating though and don't know the math
question 2: i occasionally see pro protoss using prismatic alignment on non-armored units. what gives? i find it hard to believe pros don't know how it works, but unless i'm the one who doesn't know how it works it's not actually doing anything. explanation??
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Is it any good for a Zerg to invest in Burrow for the first 100 gas instead of ling speed to mitigate damage done by Hellions? When the Hellions come into the mineral line, the drones can just burrow and Terran would need to use a scan if he really wants to kill some drones.
Some ways the Terran could counter that but is it better with the drones burrowed or unburrowed:
1. He could self target his Hellions but the number of drones killed wouldn't be made known to him, and the number would vary depending on how the drones were burrowed.
2. Alternatively, he could target the Hatchery while moving the Hellions across the mineral patches so he could get the drones.
By not relying on lings, Zerg could just expand much quickly and use the larvae that should be spent on lings for drones. I understand that this can only work if Terran isn't going for any reaper play because you would need speed to deal with reapers.
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On June 28 2013 05:49 Waise wrote:
my understanding of mineral saturation is:
-each worker you add to a base with 15 or fewer workers already on it adds a normal amount of income
-each worker you add to a base with 16-23 workers already on it adds less income
considering this, in a PvX where you're on 2 bases and will be for the near future, is there any reason NOT to go up to 24 (or at least continue probing until you expand) on each base? the idea being that even if those workers are adding less income, they are still adding income, and if/when you go up to 3 base you'll have those extra probes instantly available to transfer. the reason i say PvX specifically is because terran gets mules and drones cost larvae, so protoss seems like it would benefit most from having that "pre-saturation"
the only reason i can think of is that pro builds are so precise and delicate that they don't want to risk having fewer units in an engagement/slowing down their tech to be greedy, especially in PvP. but probes are so cheap, have their own production and add exponential economy, so it seems like it could be worth it. i'm just speculating though and don't know the math
question 2: i occasionally see pro protoss using prismatic alignment on non-armored units. what gives? i find it hard to believe pros don't know how it works, but unless i'm the one who doesn't know how it works it's not actually doing anything. explanation??
I suggest you read this page on mining resources.
You are right, the first 16 workers mine approximately 40 resources/min each, and the workers 17 to 24 mine 20 resources/min each.
Thus, a worker made after 16 "replaces" itself after a bit more than 3 minutes (because you have to factor 1/8 of a pylon, which is 12.5 minerals).
So, if you know that there won't be any aggression of any kind during the next 3 minutes, feel free to saturate. Unfortunately, you often have to deal with agression, and skipping that probe can get you that forge for a +1 timing 15 seconds earlier. Or that twilight council and charge. Or...
But, more often than not, you are right, you should always try to saturate your mineral lines. To be more specific, it is very important that you put 16 probes per mineral line, without any interruption, except mocore, but you can skip probes if necessary when going to 24 probes. One of the best reason to skip probes being stockpiling 400 minerals for a nexus =)
Regarding prismatic alignment, you are wrong, muscle memory is deeply engrained. There is no reason to use it against hydra/queen composition, but (bad) pros still do it.
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On June 28 2013 03:00 Khonorum wrote:
ayo, just got sc2 about a week ago and i'm still learning the game and stuff. i've got a question for terran that'll probably sound stupid but..
when am i supposed to expand?
Early.
There is probably a million things you need to learn, but having good macro is core to SC2. Here are some suggestions
TvZ : 1 Rax FE. Very very standard, can branch out in any direction. The simplest one also. You get to expand at 16 food
TvT : I suggest ForGG's build
12 Barracks
15 Geyser
16 Orbital Command
Pump 2 Marines out of Rax -> Reactor
20 Command Center
21 Factory
Pump out 4 additional marines from reactor Barracks
29 Starport
Switch barracks with factory (6 marines will be out on the field)
Produce 2 hellions + one marine from barracks (no add-on on that yet)
Second geyser
The “7 minute Push out” has: 8 marines, 4-6 hellions, 1 medivac
TvP : Unfortunately, 1 Rax FE is not safe anymore because of proxy oracles.
You can do a very small variation to ForGG's build. Make a second geyser after you put down the factory, and replace hellion by widow mines. Do the same push, with 4 widow mines instead of 4 hellions
Here you go, there are your 3 fast expand builds! Good luck and have fun!
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On June 23 2013 07:29 MSN wrote:
How many builds per race a good solid player from diamond/master know ? Like around 10 per race or much more ?
I don't know for you guys, but I am diamond/master, and I know between 1 and 2 builds per matchup. Well, I play random, which doesn't help.
However, I have a vague intuition of around 5 to 10 builds per matchup. For example, I feel entirely comfortable only with ForGG's mech opener. But on ladder, I mix in :
- marine tank
- hellbat drops
- 1 rax FE
- cloaked banshees
- proxy marauders (never works)
- 2 rax reapers (rarely works)
By "I don't feel comfortable" it just means that I know roughly the build, but I can probably be 15 seconds late compared to someone who really knows it well at 8:00. Which is a lot for pro players, but acceptable at my level
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what's with the new trend of terran players rallying to their supply depots now? Any particular reason?
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how do I play versus A.I where I don't have lag?
basically when I'm uploading a video it's laggy when I create a custom game and play against a bot but back then in WoL, you had a tab for versus A.I where you don't have lag and it felt like LAN
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When is it appropriate to build double engineering bays and when is it not?
Given that my build is reactionary and does not necessarily open the same everytime...
How do I calculate which I can afford, single or double upgrades, within my build?
Thanks everyone.
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On June 28 2013 15:07 fezvez wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 03:00 Khonorum wrote:
ayo, just got sc2 about a week ago and i'm still learning the game and stuff. i've got a question for terran that'll probably sound stupid but..
when am i supposed to expand? Early. There is probably a million things you need to learn, but having good macro is core to SC2. Here are some suggestions TvZ : 1 Rax FE. Very very standard, can branch out in any direction. The simplest one also. You get to expand at 16 foodTvT : I suggest ForGG's build12 Barracks 15 Geyser 16 Orbital Command Pump 2 Marines out of Rax -> Reactor 20 Command Center21 Factory Pump out 4 additional marines from reactor Barracks 29 Starport Switch barracks with factory (6 marines will be out on the field) Produce 2 hellions + one marine from barracks (no add-on on that yet) Second geyser The “7 minute Push out” has: 8 marines, 4-6 hellions, 1 medivac TvP : Unfortunately, 1 Rax FE is not safe anymore because of proxy oracles. You can do a very small variation to ForGG's build. Make a second geyser after you put down the factory, and replace hellion by widow mines. Do the same push, with 4 widow mines instead of 4 hellions Here you go, there are your 3 fast expand builds! Good luck and have fun!
thanks for those resources dude
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EPT
