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On May 04 2011 20:21 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:11 Keilah wrote:
Q: you have tanks and a handful of other units vs a zerg with ultras and infestors. You are moving forward and see the ultras moving in to attack. The rear tanks are in siege mode, the front ones are in tank mode.
Do you:
-Siege up the front line tanks ASAP?
-Leave them in tank mode?
Seems to me like sieging is ineffective as you waste so much firing time, and the splash hardly does anything vs ultras anyways. Also, by not sieging you can spread a bit to negate ultra splash + fungals, and getting neural parasite on the forward tanks won't hurt as much.
Or am I missing something? Pull them back and siege while your bio is up front engaging. If there are banelings, then siege right away, run your bio back and and focus down banelings and then micro your bio to kill the ultras. Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:23 bankai wrote:On May 03 2011 23:47 Synystyr wrote:On May 03 2011 09:35 bankai wrote:I have some questions that I thought would be common but having trouble finding answers on TL, can someone help me with this: 1) PvT: Assuming Terran does a 1rax/2rax expand, what is the difference in responding as Protoss with 1 Gate FE and 2 Gate Robo (expand on 36ish supply)? I like to use 2 Gate Robo because it feels safer (im only gold player so just wanna get good at one build) but not sure how much of an economy lead I am giving FE terrans. 2) PvT: What should be my response to 3rax build, 4rax all-in, or 2 base 6rax all-in?? Should I just match Terran's barracks count with Gateways (e.g. if they 3rax, then i get 3 gates)?? 3) PvP: If I know my opponent is teching to Colossus, is there a better counter unit composition wise than just getting more COlossus than him?? I tried Immortal dropping but this is quite hard - do voidrays work well?? Or will they get shot down by a mixed gateway army of zealots/stalkers?? Thanks TL  1. The difference between a 1 Gate FE and a 2 Gate Robo is safety. If you know a Terran is expanding, how safe do you really need to be? A 2 Rax expand can pressure if Terran went Stim or Shells, but you should have enough units at that point to handle it. 2 Gate Robo will keep you completely safe against anything an expanding Terran can do to you at that point in the game, but you may suffer a small economic deficit because of it. It shouldn't be game breaking however and it is more about how confident you are in defending early game. 2. Sentries sentries sentries! Good forcefields from the high ground will always make defending large bio pushes much easier. If you scout heavy Marauders, get Void Rays with Zealot support if possible. This composition eats Bio really, really well. At this point in the game, you will have already committed to either a 1 base push or expanded. Sentries are better for defending an expo, while Void Ray/Zealot is good if you are just sitting on 3 Gates with no tech/expand. 3. You need to keep Colossus numbers low if possible. Blink Stalkers are great in sniping Colossi down and will work in a pinch situation. However, if you know way ahead of time that Colossi are coming, Stargate play will shut this down. Phoenix harass will help you get an econ lead and chronoed VRs will melt Colossi extremely quickly so long as you micro well. Wow what an honor to be answered by both Anihc and Synystyr! As a follow up questions to the above: 1) If 1 Gate FE vs 2 Gate Robo openers are about safety, as a newbie gold player, is it better to just use 2 Gate Robo for all openers if I am not THAT far behind a 1 rax expand?? At least until I get a grip on scouting and defending early game then I can try out 1 Gate FE? 2) I think I am fine with FF defense if I 1 base against a 3 rax or 4 rax build. My problem is more those MM pushes around the 8-9min mark when I have already expanded and so dont have a ramp. In this case, what should my unit composition be and how do I micro?? FF behind all of the marines/marauders? 3) So use blink stalkers if I need a 'rush' defense against mass colossus (and therefore, if I scout a Robo Bay then I should throw down a TC?), or if i know in advance use phoenix/voids?? Is the best way to micro the voids to just fly around the back of the Colossus? Extra questions too  4) In PvZ, how do you stop an infestor/speedling attack?? My gateways get owned and my Colossus get controlled! 5) In LiquidTyler's double forge build, he goes 3 Gate Robo, expand, then double forge. Is the 3rd gate before the nexus only because you suspect heavy bio play coming (e.g. 3rax or 4 rax)? Or is it because you need to mass lots of Gateway units to take full advantage of forge upgrades?? 1. Yes, 2 Gate Robo is a solid standard opener that you should definitely learn. You'll learn a lot about defending with only a few units, having better scouting with constant Observer movement and getting a decent expansion timing down. A very good build to learn to help with your game mechanics. Practice practice practice! Then learn 1 Gate FE 2. Your FFs should split the army in half and make a slight convex so that the split forces have to travel farther to get back in the front. Your zealots should be right up front slicing up the front split Bio. If you scout MM, Colossi and Chargelots with a HT lategame should be your goal. 3. If you really can, try and keep up with Colossi production. They really are the best PvP unit so if you can get them out first or think you can catch up quickly, go that route. Otherwise, Blink is good in a pinch situation and Stargates will hard counter Robo builds very well until the mid-lategame. Keep your Voids floating over your army and poke in and out with them to draw stalkers into your zealots. 4. I'm a Terran player  Feedback is probably a must to help deal with Infestors. Splitting your forces helps as well as having a good concave. 5. The upgrades are meant for a Gateway heavy army. It's much like teching twice since you have Robo and upgrades. This means you need the 3rd Gateway to make sure you have enough army production to defend while you are weakest (during the upgrades researching and not having tech units).
Awesome, thanks for the feedback Synstyr, def helps from the Terran point of view!
I think all your answers make sense and I will keep in mind. ONE more question to follow up Q5 above:
- People been saying that the double forge build is meant only against macro terrans. Im not quite sure what this means, and what situations I should go ahead with this build. Sooo....how do you scout a 'macro terran'?? Is it a 1 rax or 2 rax build? Do I have to wait and see if they put down a CC before I consider them macro and not 1-basing?? Or should I just consider that if they havent expanded by the time I scout with my observer (around 6mins) then they are 1 basing? What if they are just bad and do not expand? What about those who 3rax and expand but still can put significant pressure?
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I'm currently having issues with knowing when to engage and from what angle would be optimal. If I look back at certain replays I'm like 40 supply ahead in army and I tend to back-out of fights that I could've easily won.
How do you know when you will win specific fights? Do you check their supplies, does it come with experience or am I completely overlooking it?
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On May 05 2011 09:48 Kaiwa wrote:
I'm currently having issues with knowing when to engage and from what angle would be optimal. If I look back at certain replays I'm like 40 supply ahead in army and I tend to back-out of fights that I could've easily won.
How do you know when you will win specific fights? Do you check their supplies, does it come with experience or am I completely overlooking it?
I suggest reading section [7] of this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=208343
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Why do workers not receive weapon upgrades?
I find it really limits my strategic options to do a 12 drone rush at the 10 min mark.
(but seriously, is there a good reason not to have workers get weapon upgrades?)
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[quote2. Your FFs should split the army in half and make a slight convex so that the split forces have to travel farther to get back in the front. Your zealots should be right up front slicing up the front split Bio. If you scout MM, Colossi and Chargelots with a HT lategame should be your goal.][/quote]
Do you mean concave, synyster? meaning the the two ends of the curve are nearer to you?
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When you see an early third from zerg. ( Around the 7-8 minute mark). as a protoss, what should i do?
Cuase usually the zerg has a huge roach army that i would not be able to break
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On May 05 2011 06:50 sleigh bells wrote:
I usually go for a third base when I notice I have the money to, and decide to get a CC instead of more rax or something depending on how the game is going. Is that correct? I always FE so I never cut a production cycle or anything or else I'd just die, so I don't really know about proper expansion timings past the FE which is planned beforehand.
The concept of taking a third base is completely different from an FE and often it is not something most people prepare for in a build. When to take your third is mostly situational. If you have a very sturdy defense at home and your opponent is playing passively, you can take a quick third. Likewise, if you do a 2 base timing push, you can also expand behind your attack.
The main thing to worry about is defending it. It's not the easiest expansion to defend so you want to make sure you are able to do that or else hide it somewhere/deny scouting.
On May 05 2011 08:49 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 20:21 Synystyr wrote:On May 04 2011 13:11 Keilah wrote:
Q: you have tanks and a handful of other units vs a zerg with ultras and infestors. You are moving forward and see the ultras moving in to attack. The rear tanks are in siege mode, the front ones are in tank mode.
Do you:
-Siege up the front line tanks ASAP?
-Leave them in tank mode?
Seems to me like sieging is ineffective as you waste so much firing time, and the splash hardly does anything vs ultras anyways. Also, by not sieging you can spread a bit to negate ultra splash + fungals, and getting neural parasite on the forward tanks won't hurt as much.
Or am I missing something? Pull them back and siege while your bio is up front engaging. If there are banelings, then siege right away, run your bio back and and focus down banelings and then micro your bio to kill the ultras. On May 04 2011 13:23 bankai wrote:On May 03 2011 23:47 Synystyr wrote:On May 03 2011 09:35 bankai wrote:I have some questions that I thought would be common but having trouble finding answers on TL, can someone help me with this: 1) PvT: Assuming Terran does a 1rax/2rax expand, what is the difference in responding as Protoss with 1 Gate FE and 2 Gate Robo (expand on 36ish supply)? I like to use 2 Gate Robo because it feels safer (im only gold player so just wanna get good at one build) but not sure how much of an economy lead I am giving FE terrans. 2) PvT: What should be my response to 3rax build, 4rax all-in, or 2 base 6rax all-in?? Should I just match Terran's barracks count with Gateways (e.g. if they 3rax, then i get 3 gates)?? 3) PvP: If I know my opponent is teching to Colossus, is there a better counter unit composition wise than just getting more COlossus than him?? I tried Immortal dropping but this is quite hard - do voidrays work well?? Or will they get shot down by a mixed gateway army of zealots/stalkers?? Thanks TL 1. The difference between a 1 Gate FE and a 2 Gate Robo is safety. If you know a Terran is expanding, how safe do you really need to be? A 2 Rax expand can pressure if Terran went Stim or Shells, but you should have enough units at that point to handle it. 2 Gate Robo will keep you completely safe against anything an expanding Terran can do to you at that point in the game, but you may suffer a small economic deficit because of it. It shouldn't be game breaking however and it is more about how confident you are in defending early game. 2. Sentries sentries sentries! Good forcefields from the high ground will always make defending large bio pushes much easier. If you scout heavy Marauders, get Void Rays with Zealot support if possible. This composition eats Bio really, really well. At this point in the game, you will have already committed to either a 1 base push or expanded. Sentries are better for defending an expo, while Void Ray/Zealot is good if you are just sitting on 3 Gates with no tech/expand. 3. You need to keep Colossus numbers low if possible. Blink Stalkers are great in sniping Colossi down and will work in a pinch situation. However, if you know way ahead of time that Colossi are coming, Stargate play will shut this down. Phoenix harass will help you get an econ lead and chronoed VRs will melt Colossi extremely quickly so long as you micro well. Wow what an honor to be answered by both Anihc and Synystyr! As a follow up questions to the above: 1) If 1 Gate FE vs 2 Gate Robo openers are about safety, as a newbie gold player, is it better to just use 2 Gate Robo for all openers if I am not THAT far behind a 1 rax expand?? At least until I get a grip on scouting and defending early game then I can try out 1 Gate FE? 2) I think I am fine with FF defense if I 1 base against a 3 rax or 4 rax build. My problem is more those MM pushes around the 8-9min mark when I have already expanded and so dont have a ramp. In this case, what should my unit composition be and how do I micro?? FF behind all of the marines/marauders? 3) So use blink stalkers if I need a 'rush' defense against mass colossus (and therefore, if I scout a Robo Bay then I should throw down a TC?), or if i know in advance use phoenix/voids?? Is the best way to micro the voids to just fly around the back of the Colossus? Extra questions too 4) In PvZ, how do you stop an infestor/speedling attack?? My gateways get owned and my Colossus get controlled! 5) In LiquidTyler's double forge build, he goes 3 Gate Robo, expand, then double forge. Is the 3rd gate before the nexus only because you suspect heavy bio play coming (e.g. 3rax or 4 rax)? Or is it because you need to mass lots of Gateway units to take full advantage of forge upgrades?? 1. Yes, 2 Gate Robo is a solid standard opener that you should definitely learn. You'll learn a lot about defending with only a few units, having better scouting with constant Observer movement and getting a decent expansion timing down. A very good build to learn to help with your game mechanics. Practice practice practice! Then learn 1 Gate FE 2. Your FFs should split the army in half and make a slight convex so that the split forces have to travel farther to get back in the front. Your zealots should be right up front slicing up the front split Bio. If you scout MM, Colossi and Chargelots with a HT lategame should be your goal. 3. If you really can, try and keep up with Colossi production. They really are the best PvP unit so if you can get them out first or think you can catch up quickly, go that route. Otherwise, Blink is good in a pinch situation and Stargates will hard counter Robo builds very well until the mid-lategame. Keep your Voids floating over your army and poke in and out with them to draw stalkers into your zealots. 4. I'm a Terran player Feedback is probably a must to help deal with Infestors. Splitting your forces helps as well as having a good concave. 5. The upgrades are meant for a Gateway heavy army. It's much like teching twice since you have Robo and upgrades. This means you need the 3rd Gateway to make sure you have enough army production to defend while you are weakest (during the upgrades researching and not having tech units). Awesome, thanks for the feedback Synstyr, def helps from the Terran point of view! I think all your answers make sense and I will keep in mind. ONE more question to follow up Q5 above: - People been saying that the double forge build is meant only against macro terrans. Im not quite sure what this means, and what situations I should go ahead with this build. Sooo....how do you scout a 'macro terran'?? Is it a 1 rax or 2 rax build? Do I have to wait and see if they put down a CC before I consider them macro and not 1-basing?? Or should I just consider that if they havent expanded by the time I scout with my observer (around 6mins) then they are 1 basing? What if they are just bad and do not expand? What about those who 3rax and expand but still can put significant pressure?
The reason the double forge build is used solely against macro Terrans is because two upgrade levels still take quite a while to finish, regardless of Chronoboosting. A 1 base timing push would hit before the upgrades finished and would be game deciding, rendering the upgrades useless at that time. You need a long term game for those upgrades to really stand out.
1 or 2 Rax builds are generally expansion builds. 3 Rax is a 1 base timing push that needs to do damage. Sure, they can expand behind the attack but without significant damage done, they are behind because you will probably already have an expansion up. Your observer should be able to tell you everything you need to know. If you can't find an expansion and see either a lot of tech, units or barracks, it's safe to say a 1 base attack is on the way.
On May 05 2011 15:16 johanngrunt wrote:
Why do workers not receive weapon upgrades?
I find it really limits my strategic options to do a 12 drone rush at the 10 min mark.
(but seriously, is there a good reason not to have workers get weapon upgrades?)
Workers would fall under the melee category for upgrades and Terran doesn't have melee upgrades to research. It wouldn't be fair otherwise. Workers aren't meant to be part of your army anyways.
On May 05 2011 16:33 Quochobao wrote:Show nested quote +. Your FFs should split the army in half and make a slight convex so that the split forces have to travel farther to get back in the front. Your zealots should be right up front slicing up the front split Bio. If you scout MM, Colossi and Chargelots with a HT lategame should be your goal. Do you mean concave, synyster? meaning the the two ends of the curve are nearer to you?
No, a convex where the two ends of the curve are away from you. This would make it so that the bio behind the forcefields would have to travel a slightly longer distance around the forcefields in order to shoot their targets.
On May 05 2011 16:39 Crysus wrote:
When you see an early third from zerg. ( Around the 7-8 minute mark). as a protoss, what should i do?
Cuase usually the zerg has a huge roach army that i would not be able to break
Actually no. Since he took such a fast third, he is most likely droning up heavily and is instead relying on static defense to hold off any pushes around that time. You would do well to poke at the 3rd from an angle that would be hard to be flanked from. Keep a proxy pylon in the area and try your best to take it down. Otherwise, just macro up and play a standard game. Zerg wants to stay 1 base ahead of you as it is, so it's nothing too drastic.
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How do I fire several EMPs from ghosts at the same time/in quick succession? Does this change if I have 1 ghost selected vs several? Is it select, E, shift, click, click, click, or shift, E, click etc? Thanks
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What is the button or hotkey combo that allows you to select all the units of that type on the screen?
Like the function of double clicking but with a button combo.
I'm losing a lot of time trying to aim my double clicks on tiny units 
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On May 05 2011 16:39 Crysus wrote:
When you see an early third from zerg. ( Around the 7-8 minute mark). as a protoss, what should i do?
Cuase usually the zerg has a huge roach army that i would not be able to break
This is not exactly a simple question, because it is very situational and there are many different possible answers.
I'm going to assume you did a FFE or something, because if you did 3 gate expand then you should just be able to go kill it. If not, then something else is wrong, such as you're not using force fields correctly.
If the early third is a response to your FFE, then you can either do what Synystr suggested which was to just play a standard macro game and get your own 3rd a bit earlier than usual, or you can try to go kill it.
The best ways I've found to kill that quick 3rd from the Zerg is first, to not panic. You don't need to kill it immediately, since it will actually take the Zerg awhile before he can make enough drones to even benefit from 3 bases. But you do need to put on some early pressure so that the Zerg can't pump pure drones. Then follow it up with a mid game attack. For example, what has worked for me (all of these are off of nexus first builds):
2 gate zealot -> 6 warpgate attack (chrono on warpgate)
stargate -> 6 warpgate attack (chrono on stargate)
4-5 warpgate attack -> 2-3 colossus timing attack (chrono on warpgate, start robo and colossus tech as soon as core goes up)
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On May 05 2011 23:25 fraGGer wrote:
How do I fire several EMPs from ghosts at the same time/in quick succession? Does this change if I have 1 ghost selected vs several? Is it select, E, shift, click, click, click, or shift, E, click etc? Thanks
Shift-clicking an ability queues up the closest unit from your selection not already doing something to do that ability. So if you select your ghosts, hit E, then shift-click N different locations, then the N closest ghosts will emp those locations. If you click more locations than you have ghosts, then the extra emp clicks are queued up on your ghosts instead.
(And you only need to hold down shift when you click the target for the ability. You do not need to hold down shift when you press the ability hotkey itself.)
On May 05 2011 23:38 legatus legionis wrote:What is the button or hotkey combo that allows you to select all the units of that type on the screen? Like the function of double clicking but with a button combo. I'm losing a lot of time trying to aim my double clicks on tiny units
Ctrl-clicking a unit on the main screen selects all units of that type that are visible (+ a little extra off screen as well).
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Who wins?
A 3-3 marine or a 0-0 marine with a medivac.
What should the 3-3 marine target?
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On May 06 2011 01:10 bobwhiz wrote:
Who wins?
A 3-3 marine or a 0-0 marine with a medivac.
What should the 3-3 marine target?
There are unit testers out that you can try this on. Just do a simple custom game search and voila.
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On May 06 2011 01:10 bobwhiz wrote:
Who wins?
A 3-3 marine or a 0-0 marine with a medivac.
What should the 3-3 marine target?
Not sure of the practical relevance of this, but I tested it out for fun and...
A 3-3 marine can't out-dps the medivac quick enough so it loses straight-up to a 0-0 marine, even if the 3-3 marine also has combat shield.
A 3-3 marine with stim can out-dps the medivac so it wins over the 0-0 marine.
A 3-3 marine with stim vs. a 0-0 marine with stim and a medivac is close, but the 3-3 marine with stim comes out a hair ahead each time.
In the cases where the 3-3 marine can't kill the 0-0 marine, it might as well target the medivac so that it gets some lasting damage out there. Otherwise targeting the medivac is not worth it because it has much more hp (and armor) than the marine.
(p.s., the best unit tester out there for this kind of business is "Unit Tester Online")
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What's the best ratio for an mmm ball?
Something like 8 marines 2 marauders 1 medivac?
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On May 06 2011 01:24 Kambing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:10 bobwhiz wrote:
Who wins?
A 3-3 marine or a 0-0 marine with a medivac.
What should the 3-3 marine target? Not sure of the practical relevance of this, but I tested it out for fun and...
Thanks for doing the testing, I appreciate it.
The relevance comes in handy for mid-late game TvT and drops where one Terran has focussed on upgrading mech, and the other on upgrading bio. I often see Terrans get bottlenecked on gas and ending up having to get lots of Marines. With solid upgrading I wanted to see how multi-pronged drops would fare in the late game against unupgraded units. I also wanted to see how defending drops would go.
The upgrades are crucial, it turns out for a good defense. The moment there are 8 0-0 marines, the medivac is only healing one at a time. Therefore unupgraded marines late game are roughly useless unless they go undefended.
The theory is interesting, at least.
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On May 06 2011 01:42 Stinson wrote:
What's the best ratio for an mmm ball?
Something like 8 marines 2 marauders 1 medivac?
It depends on your opponents composition and race.
Against zerg, I tend to favor Marauders.
Against Terran, I tend to favor Marines.
Against Protoss I tend to be roughly neutral, with an edge to marauders.
Against Mass Roach- All marauders. =P
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On May 06 2011 01:47 bobwhiz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:42 Stinson wrote:
What's the best ratio for an mmm ball?
Something like 8 marines 2 marauders 1 medivac? It depends on your opponents composition and race. Against zerg, I tend to favor Marauders. Against Terran, I tend to favor Marines. Against Protoss I tend to be roughly neutral, with an edge to marauders. Against Mass Roach- All marauders. =P
You're gonna want Marines when Mutas come, though.
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On May 06 2011 02:10 bobwhiz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:47 bobwhiz wrote:On May 06 2011 01:42 Stinson wrote:
What's the best ratio for an mmm ball?
Something like 8 marines 2 marauders 1 medivac? It depends on your opponents composition and race. Against zerg, I tend to favor Marauders. Against Terran, I tend to favor Marines. Against Protoss I tend to be roughly neutral, with an edge to marauders. Against Mass Roach- All marauders. =P You're gonna want Marines when Mutas come, though.
against standard ling/bling/muta, the only point of marauders really is to absorb baneling hits. marauders are terrible against lings.
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As zerg , i generally go mass ling + Roaches and about 5 infestors vs toss and terran with 3 base. For some reason at abt 20 mins I have a huge stock of gold but my gas seems to be close to 0 ..so I cant tech up to ultras or blords..am i missing something here?
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EPT
