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On January 28 2011 07:47 Alphasquad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 03:01 1Eris1 wrote:On January 27 2011 01:23 pwnasaurus wrote:
Personally, I find muta/ling to be a completely shit strategy against anyone good. If the toss does a good timing push right as your mutas pop, it's basically complete auto lose. You have to defend with your first wave of mutas, you lose everything, then just get overwhelmed. I haven't gone muta/ling in like 2 months because it just doesn't work against a good toss.
That's not even mentioning the new pheonix buff.
~2.5k master zerg here. This. Roac/hydra/corrupter into BL is generally safer, more solid, and just more adabtable overall judging from the recent development this composition fails hard against colossus/void unless you are able to catch protoss with like 200 to 150 supply
Based on the amount of money they'll be dumping into an army as expensive as that, it's very likely you will actually be able to get that kind of supply advantage.
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I fail miserably whenever I try muta/ling in masters but that may just be the result of shitty micro and superior competition.
I'm not a fan of roach/hydra either. Hydras are slow, gas heavy, delay my spire and hive tech, and have low HP. Going hydra's instead of mass roach also allows your opponent to get his collosi count too high when you want him to be pumping immortals. So... for AA I'll add spores/queens as needed. Roach/ling (lings are a must to tank immortal shots and prevent stalkers from retreating) into roach/brood lord is the only comp I can beat toss with these days.
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On January 27 2011 01:52 orcslayermac wrote:
I disagree. As a +2500 Diamond Zerg player, I almost exclusively play muta ling vs protoss (on larger maps), especially when I see a stargate. A few pre-emptive spore crawlers negate most harassment and once the protoss player sees he cannot kill any of my overlords, queens, or drones, the phoenix production usually stops. Even if it does not, I like to juke phoenix micro and often win the phoenix battles.
How? I have my mutas fly away and when the phoenixes follow, I immediately double back and snipe one or two. When the phoenixes start flying away, I fly away. Unless the toss has perfect micro, I usually end up killing every last phoenix. Getting +1 and +2 attack on mutas asap really helps too. Some of my favorite moments vs toss are when my muta micro beats another player's phoenix micro. ^_^
As the game progresses, however, I find that I must deal significant damage to the protoss economy, and mass upgraded blink stalker / colossus can really hurt. This is usually late game after I am at least at 4 bases. At this point, I add Ultralisks and sometimes roaches. If the protoss player is getting all cutsey with blink stalkers, a few fungal growths work wonders, and you'll already have your infestor pit on your way to your hive.
TL;DR My Mutalisks > Phoenixes
You know, I may only be a fairly middle quality plat player, and I've played a few customs against high diamond zergs...I almost always open gate/forge/phoenix/expand, if I see even ONE muta I've already won, there is nothing a zerg can do once I get >3 phoenix on the field if they wasted the resources on a spire. Constant scouting with phoenix also keeps the muta number in check, phoenix kill mutas so fast that even with spores/queens I can usually snipe the mutas without losing a single phoenix, and then transitioning into 2base 5gate/stargate play supercedes anything else a zerg can do with muta.
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The issue I think is that now with the buff to phoenixes in the last patch the protoss have an easy direct counter against your mutas. The protoss now have the means of shutting down probably your most important unit in the muta/ling army with their phoenixes. This brings it down to lings v warpgate/robo, which does not really cut it. With the roach/hydra/corruptor there is no 1 unit a protoss can create to shut down an entire facet of your attack, making the combo more effective. I think muta/ling works if you have a sure advantage over the player due to some occurrence in the early game but if you are on even grounds or behind the roach/hydra/corruptor is the best.
Also with the current meta game, due to the patch, I believe most protoss now have an earlier warpgate against zerg because it is a good harassment/scout unit to pick off queens and ovis. So even if you surprise them with mutas it might not be hard for them to counter after your initial muta push.
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On January 26 2011 16:15 Yonkid wrote:
Early voids are completely useless against Zerg - Queen counters ~2 easily and if you see him getting a stargate he'll probably be getting phoenixes out.
You use both, voids and phoenix. You Gravitation beam his queens, let your voids charge one one, and then take out another. Voids are useful because they can punish the expo once the queens are out of the way. Not to mention you can CB out phoenix and get cross map with them to GB any other queens that pop.
You pretty much need 3 queens to defend this, or spores, and as P, if you're wasting drones on spores that early in the game, then I've succeeded. I can retreat then and pick off your scouting overlords. Queens cost 3 drones, so that extra queen is costing you drones as well. Also, you need the 3 queens by the time my air arrives at your base. I GB one and focus it down, and then focus the other. By this time, I already have my next void or phoenix building or on the way. By this point, you probably don't have the AA needed.
Granted, part of this is hiding this so it can't be scouted until its too late so that hydras aren't on the board yet. But its pretty hard to stop since Z early game AA isn't so good.
Also was thinking when doing this, you could wall off with a zealot and 2 sentries (one to FF if needed and the other to hallucinate), and 2 buildings. Instead of warp gate tech, you could get hallucination instead and bring an additional void as a meatshield since Z doesn't get Overseers
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 14:47 Zephan wrote:
Well, as a protoss player, when I see mutaling, I usually tech up to blink stalkers, colossus, and zealots. The blink stalkers are more for crisis control against the mutas, while the colossus/zealots will roast your lings. I've found this quite effective and so I'd say muta ling isn't actually that great of a strat unless you control very well, picking off units at the right places, killing stray colossus, etc etc
I found roach/hydra/ corruptor a much, MUCH harder composition to deal with. Hydras are a very nice dps dealer against gateway units, roaches tank shots, while corruptors can kill colossus quite quickly, especially before they get like 7-8 colossus. After you've killed their colossus, your roach hydra composition can usually beat their ground army.
The corruptors can also serve as a very nice late game transition. Brood lords really, really mess up protoss in almost every single way. I honestly can't find a way to beat brood lords, especially if they have hydras to support them.
My sources? Personally getting owned by roach/hydra/colossus while using stalker/zealot/colossus and beating mutaling quite easily
Oh, final note, I find that Mutas kill buildings quite slowly, so I have decided to say "f it" and just 1a into their base and killings most of their stuff before retreating some of my stalkers.
Edit: as the 2500 diamond protoss said, a very well executed mutaling is extremely scary because they can use their mutas and basically do free damage to you and you can't do very much against it. I just believe that it's easier and still effective to do a roach/hydra/corruptor mix.
Watch some of MrBitter's practice sessions with 88iNcontrol. 88iNcontrol uses voidrays and a seemingly unit composition to destroy Zerg with Broodlords. I really feel that keeping your colossus from dying, even if it means sacrificing your gateway units to an equal/slightly lesser supply of zerg units, it paramount. This is because if you keep your 3-5 colossus, you can simply remax with voidrays/zealots/stalkers and cut off colossus production, doing so utter destroys EVERY zerg unit comp is micro'd correctly. Or you could play like oGsSKS and just sit on 2-3 bases and make that perfect army from the get go.
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On January 27 2011 01:23 pwnasaurus wrote:
Personally, I find muta/ling to be a completely shit strategy against anyone good. If the toss does a good timing push right as your mutas pop, it's basically complete auto lose. You have to defend with your first wave of mutas, you lose everything, then just get overwhelmed. I haven't gone muta/ling in like 2 months because it just doesn't work against a good toss.
That's not even mentioning the new pheonix buff.
~2.5k master zerg here.
I agree with this pretty much. Mutaling was a good strategy before, but Protoss know how to respond to it now. There's a push you can do as a Protoss with 5 or 6 gateways that hits just before your mutalisks pop and it's very hard to hold. If the Protoss suspects mutalisk, they can add gateways, mass up, and time it to hit right as your spire finishes. You'll have no reinforcements, and it will be up to lings and spine crawlers to hold off a big army. You'll most definitely have to defend with your mutalisk, and meanwhile the Protoss can macro back at home and just add some cannons - it's a bad situation for Zergs.
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if the opponent opens with some sort of robo build, muta ling is better. if they go stargate then you have to go roach hydra. if they stay on gateways only you just need mass roach with burrow ups
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In my experience, muta-ling can be demolished by a well timed protoss all-in, so roach hydra is necessary to just survive, unless you can get 4 bases up quickly(this is not possible against most all-ins). You'll likely need to replace your army 2-4x against the allin. Roach/hydra is always safer against any protoss play, because of muta-/ling vulnerabilities. This all depends on toss build order, whether or not he fast expands, or just 1-base allin. Also map is a big factor as some maps allow good muta harassment on a 1-base. A 1-base toss can typically easily hold off muta-ling, because it nullifies the maneuverability advantage zerg gets.
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Precisely my thoughts. Mutaling is a way to punish a poor build that expands too early to pressure and too late to threaten.
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If i decide to play Mutaling, i would only do it vs non FE'ing toss players, and on certain maps like LT, where you can defend easily.
Otherwise you are better off with Ling/Roach into Roach/Hydra/Corruptor.
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EPT
