On January 27 2011 01:23 pwnasaurus wrote: Personally, I find muta/ling to be a completely shit strategy against anyone good. If the toss does a good timing push right as your mutas pop, it's basically complete auto lose. You have to defend with your first wave of mutas, you lose everything, then just get overwhelmed. I haven't gone muta/ling in like 2 months because it just doesn't work against a good toss.
That's not even mentioning the new pheonix buff.
~2.5k master zerg here.
This. Roac/hydra/corrupter into BL is generally safer, more solid, and just more adabtable overall
if you trust your micro to be that much better than your opponents, then sure. But if they are micro'ign their phoenix's, you WILL lose every muta and they will lose nothing. The mechanics give the advantage to the phoenix's w/ superior range and speed.
That isn't realistic for any human level of control, and this also assumes that the protoss player is focusing on this battle at the exact second that the mutas double back. Yes, phoenixes are a great choice against mutalisks, but you can't just say 'hellions can kite roaches indefinitely, so your roaches will all get taken out without the terran taking a single point of damage.'
On January 26 2011 15:07 Smigi wrote: Muta/Ling is no longer viable IF the protoss goes stargate, which most should be doing now a days because its very effective.
As more and more protoss figure out the strength of Stargate opennings, mutalisks will almost never be seen anymore.
I disagree. As a +2500 Diamond Zerg player, I almost exclusively play muta ling vs protoss (on larger maps), especially when I see a stargate. A few pre-emptive spore crawlers negate most harassment and once the protoss player sees he cannot kill any of my overlords, queens, or drones, the phoenix production usually stops. Even if it does not, I like to juke phoenix micro and often win the phoenix battles.
How? I have my mutas fly away and when the phoenixes follow, I immediately double back and snipe one or two. When the phoenixes start flying away, I fly away. Unless the toss has perfect micro, I usually end up killing every last phoenix. Getting +1 and +2 attack on mutas asap really helps too. Some of my favorite moments vs toss are when my muta micro beats another player's phoenix micro. ^_^
As the game progresses, however, I find that I must deal significant damage to the protoss economy, and mass upgraded blink stalker / colossus can really hurt. This is usually late game after I am at least at 4 bases. At this point, I add Ultralisks and sometimes roaches. If the protoss player is getting all cutsey with blink stalkers, a few fungal growths work wonders, and you'll already have your infestor pit on your way to your hive.
TL;DR My Mutalisks > Phoenixes
While I don't agree that Muta micro guarantees this, I do think that the degree phoenixes counter mutas is often greatly overexaggerated. Muta's have a superior acceleration to Phoenixes. Thus the muta's can make their classic turns on a dime, but the phoenixes have to make curve in order to make a change in direction, allowing the mutas to take potshot on them. Though, i don't think this breaks the counter either. When I use phoenixes, i tend to have my main army behind them in order to do the same to the mutas.
Course, back on topic. few people seem to realize, having a few corrupters versus phoenixes with your mutas effectively protects heavy damage to your mutas. if the phoenix ever gets in range, they'll get hit by the corrupters. In short, as a toss, I still fear MutaLing more then other zerg strats. What's even better, is that it can easily and quickly transition to Roach Hydra at any time.
IMO, muta openings are very strong if you can get there comfortably and P doesn't open phoenixes. If you scout a robo, P will want at least 1 unit from the robo before he attacks, so if you feel like you can get your spire complete before that attack, go mutas 100%. If you see mass gateway, play it safe with roaches. If you see twilight, it's blink or DTs. For blink stalkers, hydras are the best choice, but roaches or muta/ling works fine too if you have enough.
As the most popular opening for protoss, right now, is stargate harass into robo and expand, most suggestions don't make much sense
Currently as zerg, i go for a roach heavy army first, and then add on mutalisks as they take down voidrays quite easily, and with 3 or less colossi you can targetfire those down quit quickly with mutas. If he makes a lot of pheonix, then add corruptors and only fight in battles where protoss wont run away.
You obviously want a lot of queens in the start if he is harassing you with voidrays/pheonix, those also help out in the battle later on. This is what works the best for me right now in zvp at a 2950 master level.
Hydras just melt away instantly to colossi or high templars, I don't find them much use except for timing pushes if the protoss fails a 4gate and wants to transition into something else.
I feel the decision is primarily map and position dependent. In my opinion the question should be asked, how important is mobility here? For example on maps where zerg is forced to take a 3rd far away from their main then mobility is very useful for defense. Certainly, any map positions where you find yourself close by air but far by ground is ideal for muta harass such as scrap, 12/3, 6/9 positions on LT etc. The biggest strength of mutas against P is punishing a P for moving out while still being able to return for defense! If it's a map where that seems possible, it's a good option to go muta.
I dont think mutas are viable in ZvP anymore. Phoenix, Blink stalkers, Stalker sentry, HTs or archons counter them. If you go mutas you are too vulnerable for early attacks like 6 gates pressure and even if a toss doesnt open with stargate tech he can throw down one or two stargates an chrono boost out phoenix so fast you wont be able to do enough damage to pay for the mutas
On January 27 2011 01:23 pwnasaurus wrote: Personally, I find muta/ling to be a completely shit strategy against anyone good. If the toss does a good timing push right as your mutas pop, it's basically complete auto lose. You have to defend with your first wave of mutas, you lose everything, then just get overwhelmed. I haven't gone muta/ling in like 2 months because it just doesn't work against a good toss.
That's not even mentioning the new pheonix buff.
~2.5k master zerg here.
This. Roac/hydra/corrupter into BL is generally safer, more solid, and just more adabtable overall
judging from the recent development this composition fails hard against colossus/void unless you are able to catch protoss with like 200 to 150 supply
I won this game, even though I had horrible macro. I barely survived both pushes, and I feel that I have a decent grasp on the issues pertaining to macro in this game that contributed to those situations (although feel free to offer criticisms/advice related to that if you want).
My question is, when I scout my opponent in ZvP, I feel very confident about knowing what he is doing and when he is doing it based on worker scout + ramp information + later OL sacs.
That said, I don't have a firm understanding of when I should say "hey, roach/hydra would be better in this case" or "muta/ling would be the better choice vs this build."
In this replay, I chose muta/ling, and I'm not sure it was the better decision, even though it worked in my favor in this game against this opponent.
Would roach/hydra have been the better choice here? What information should I base my decision on? How do I factor the following in:
- Tech - Opener - First gateway units - Map positions - General build order - ?????
Thanks for any insight. It's the worst feeling in the world to know exactly what my opponent is doing and not have an informed decision.
edit: also, I watched the MrBitters coaching sessions with incontrol and machine, and they both advocate different playstyles seemingly independent of what the protoss is doing. This confuses me more than anything. I feel like given what I see the protoss doing, one build should be superior for some time X during the game.
The fact that zerg players feel like they need to choose between two builds total vs. the multi-faceted protoss army is kind of a problem with the players and not the race. Posts like this are indicative. I recommend checking out games from Lalush, I see him using alot of rare tactics/unit comps as zerg and he does quite well with them. Hes one of the first zergs I see incorporate infestors into his first 200 food army and make room for broodlords and stuff reasonably early. I wish zergs would break away from choosing between muta/ling and roach/hydra and start incorporating more complex mixes, like FD did to overcome zerg weakness in season 1 for instance. You get this fat economy as zerg and then dont use it because youre maxed out on tier 2 against a tier 3 deathball. Your race does more than muta/ling and roach/hydra believe it or not and very view players are experimenting. It seems like those that are experimenting, like Idra and Ret, are experimenting with efficient openings and early defenses... I would like to see some good zerg players really try out some unit mixes or timings that make zerg less predictable.
Incontrol was saying on that JP with friends VoD that Machine's big issue is hes very predictable and always plays a macro game. I feel that 90% of the zergs i face on ladder are very predictable so beating them basically feels like beating the 4 gate or something from the ZvP perspective... you know its coming, you throw down the appropriate defenses like a couple spines and cut some drones and you cruise to victory. Maybe try being unpredictable? I know personally when I see even a small amount of roaches, or scout the warren, mutas are the last thing on my mind... Ive seen some top players start with roaches and make a nice transition to mutas... Is it the utmost efficient build out there? Maybe not, but since zergs basically stay on low gas counts when they arent going mutas i feel some experimentation is in order... Some of the ZvP's ive lost over the last month have felt this way... they open like ling with a handful of roaches and ill scout pretty diligently, maybe even see a spire... but then i engage and break even with a roach army or even retreat with sentry and a huge fucking muta ball comes and crushes me while im sitting there with 2 immortals that could have been an expansion with cannons or something more useful. Its always a WTF moment like, how could they possible have all that stuff AND roaches. I personally don't think Roach/Muta is out of the question but you will need to find an effective way of safely getting there without being obvious.
TLDR: i hate posts that ask these black and white questions with so many unexplored grey areas. Zergs at least around ~2600 masters attack with armies that are predictable and easy to respond to because weve seen them all 100 times before. There are very specific responses already aware of.. .show me something new
Roach hydra is a must, consider that you can get a spawning pool on the way anyhow. Roach/ling/hydra is a very potent combination, able to take down most robo/gateway combinations before templar and colossi.
Roaches are also a great way to defend those early gate pushes and 4gates- getting queens along the way covers the 2gate/2star base (however, smart 2g2s players get a phoenix AND a voidray to deal the most damage to the queens.) Spire can also be obtained along the way if it goes on to 3base games- so either way, a roach/hydra OPENER is best, turning into a macro game where you ADAPT to your opponent's playstyle, because adapting is a must.
On a side note, as toss, I rarely see roach hydra anymore, unless I'm going heavy VR. otherwise, the zerg almost always goes mass roach nowadays, with obvious transitions in the lategame. This seems to do pretty well, as roaches seem to have few weaknesses, save for immortals and VR's, and are easily mass produced, as well as much better at harassing. Pretty much all replays I have vs Zerg show similar strats, with the exception of ling rushes, which usually follows into Roach Corrupter when I add Collosi, then Roach Brood Lord as a late game transition.
I've also been watching several zerg streams, and they all seem to be doing the same thing, but for some reason noone seems to mention it in any threads or topics... is that because people consider the possibility of hydras for use as AA part of the "roach hydra" mix, or that people don't realize it's going on?
I think muta/ling isn't so bad against robo. mutas constantly pressures your opponet while you can expand. When i go muta/ling, i literally spend all my gas before my third base (except speedling upgrade) on mutalisks. Increased amounts of mutas can snipe down pylons, zealot groups that could prove a problem to your zerglings and ofc, worker raids. Using this distraction, you can expand, quickly grab your third and fourth while the P is turtled up with his main and natural. When you go muta heavy, you will have lots of mineral surplus. You can dump all of this in speedlings. If the P responds with mass stalkers, your speedlings will make quick work of them. If they go stargate-->phoenix, then make additional queens at your bases+1-2 spore crawlers. With your superior macro, you can easily transit to Roach/hydra, or just Muta, Hydra, zerglings. However that combo wouldnt fare so will against mass chargelots, but its highly possible that the P wont go zealots in response to early mutalisks attacks. Going phoenix disables the option of transition to colossi. Even if they went colossi, you have corruptor access via muta/ling spire tech. If you can out macro your opponent by large amounts of mutas, you can out macro him.
I haven't been going muta-ling in ZvP for a while, but I feel like it can still be viable in some situations. Seems like if you can get to a situation where your opponent cannot 6-gate you and cannot double-stargate you, you could go muta-ling. I'm not so sure about going for muta-ling after seeing a forge FE. Is the 6-gate timing off a forge FE as fast as a off a 3-warpgate expand?
Protoss has basically 4 tech options: only gateways, gateways + robos, gateways + stargates, gateways + templar/blink. Muta-ling is strong against a 2-base gateways + robo composition, but will lose to only gateways (6 gate) and gateway + stargate. Gateway + templar isn't really viable (nobody does it off 2 base), and gateways + blink is pretty much the same as just gates. So, in order to create a situation in which you can muta-ling, you need your opponent to go for a gateway + robo composition, or be able to hold an all gate with just spines and lings, which is really, really risky. You could trick your opponent into getting a robo if you show a hydra den or a roach warren (which could look like some sort of wierd hydra build or roach-burrow). I'm gonna watch some games and check out the timing.
Edit: check out this game, to see a hold against a 6-gate push. Sen does it on LT, barely, losing all of his drones at his nat, with some mistakes by Socke (his stalkers were shooting at overlords for a long time, not killing the remaining spines/lings). I think forcing/tricking a robo is really the only way to viably go muta-ling. What's better to try and force a robo, hydra den or roach warren? Will a protoss player believe that you're going 2-base hydra? If he does, will it convince him to go for collosi, or will he stick with his 6-gate? If he sees the roach warren, will he go for fast obs/immortals?
On January 28 2011 07:54 Jayrod wrote: TLDR: i hate posts that ask these black and white questions with so many unexplored grey areas. Zergs at least around ~2600 masters attack with armies that are predictable and easy to respond to because weve seen them all 100 times before. There are very specific responses already aware of.. .show me something new
It's really not black and white at all. This is a bare-bones game-strategy question. Obviously any game strategy is to be highly adaptable. If he goes 1gate 4stargate or something kooky, it's not like I won't respond to that.
What you've generalized this to is akin to saying "Terran is so predictable.. it's either mech or bioball..." I mean... it's just not a real argument.
You need core units in an army composition, and the question here is which dominant unit composition is generally more advantageous and why.
I think there have been several great posts helping elucidate which is better in which situations.
On January 31 2011 18:44 Lobotomist wrote: I haven't been going muta-ling in ZvP for a while, but I feel like it can still be viable in some situations. Seems like if you can get to a situation where your opponent cannot 6-gate you and cannot double-stargate you, you could go muta-ling. I'm not so sure about going for muta-ling after seeing a forge FE. Is the 6-gate timing off a forge FE as fast as a off a 3-warpgate expand?
Protoss has basically 4 tech options: only gateways, gateways + robos, gateways + stargates, gateways + templar/blink. Muta-ling is strong against a 2-base gateways + robo composition, but will lose to only gateways (6 gate) and gateway + stargate. Gateway + templar isn't really viable (nobody does it off 2 base), and gateways + blink is pretty much the same as just gates. So, in order to create a situation in which you can muta-ling, you need your opponent to go for a gateway + robo composition, or be able to hold an all gate with just spines and lings, which is really, really risky. You could trick your opponent into getting a robo if you show a hydra den or a roach warren (which could look like some sort of wierd hydra build or roach-burrow). I'm gonna watch some games and check out the timing.
Edit: check out this game, to see a hold against a 6-gate push. Sen does it on LT, barely, losing all of his drones at his nat, with some mistakes by Socke (his stalkers were shooting at overlords for a long time, not killing the remaining spines/lings). I think forcing/tricking a robo is really the only way to viably go muta-ling. What's better to try and force a robo, hydra den or roach warren? Will a protoss player believe that you're going 2-base hydra? If he does, will it convince him to go for collosi, or will he stick with his 6-gate? If he sees the roach warren, will he go for fast obs/immortals?
This is a pretty well-thought-out post and i like the logic train here.
Perhaps if I decide to go muta/ling again, I'll at least open with roach. Lately I've been defending 6gate with only spines/lings and a handful of muta, but it seems like roach in general would just be a stronger opening, especially if my protoss opponent stays on the ground.
As a gold zerg player I feel the best combo against a protoss that doesn’t cheese and does a standard gate, or robo/gate opening is the roach/hydra/corruptor. The roaches are good against most gate units, and do fairly well as a tanking unit against colossi, while the hydra does a good job of killing immortals/air units, and then the corruptors destroy colossi and can be eventually teched into the brood force counter ultra end game zerg. I think the roaches give you a good opportunity to hit them early mid game with lair tech roaches if you they are going heavy gate, and if you are on the defense nothing is better than roaches + speed on creep with some spines with a few queens. The hydras help you shut down most gateway/immortal pushes and defend against void/phoenix. Then once you get corruptors you pretty much have no need to worry about air/colossi and the rest should fall into place. Also since roach/hydra use same upgrades it makes life a lot easier. Only way I see toss defeating a roach/hydra/corruptor is if the zerg messes up by not upgrading, no detection, bad scouting or the toss has you outnumbered by a significant amount. The muta/ling/bane can be shut down by any normal toss army backed with High Templar or Phoenix. To me Lings/muta/bane is so easily countered by HTs it is ridiculous and the phoenix now with the cheaper cost and reduced build time allows for toss to counter mutas easier than ever. I always like muta/ling verse terran, roach/hydra/corruptor v toss, and roach/muta against zerg as my staples unless I want to try some cheese or weird strat to mix things up.
The fact that zerg players feel like they need to choose between two builds total vs. the multi-faceted protoss army is kind of a problem with the players and not the race. Posts like this are indicative. I recommend checking out games from Lalush, I see him using alot of rare tactics/unit comps as zerg and he does quite well with them. Hes one of the first zergs I see incorporate infestors into his first 200 food army and make room for broodlords and stuff reasonably early. I wish zergs would break away from choosing between muta/ling and roach/hydra and start incorporating more complex mixes, like FD did to overcome zerg weakness in season 1 for instance. You get this fat economy as zerg and then dont use it because youre maxed out on tier 2 against a tier 3 deathball. Your race does more than muta/ling and roach/hydra believe it or not and very view players are experimenting. It seems like those that are experimenting, like Idra and Ret, are experimenting with efficient openings and early defenses... I would like to see some good zerg players really try out some unit mixes or timings that make zerg less predictable.
[post continues]
I'm not really following this line of thought. If you're going to invest in mutas, you will find that you can't do anything at all against Protoss with only a few except kill probes in the event he forgot cannons. Protoss units have a lot more HP, and warp gates allow him to reinforce any area with a few stalkers without having to cross the map. You need to get enough to be able to kill small groups of stalkers without taking losses, and that doesn't leave you with enough gas to do much else. FD's style of play with fewer mutas was against Terran, because you only need a few mutas to kill medivacs and cut off Terran reinforcements as they cross the map.
As for leaving supply for your tier 3 army, top Zergs tend to just trade armies as they hit 200 food before their opponent, then remax with those units, rather than sitting at less than 200 food for the long period it takes to morph a hive and greater spire. Earlier Infestors are not a bad idea by any means though if they will be useful, but that's not to say pros should be grabbing them every time either.
EPT
