I won this game, even though I had horrible macro. I barely survived both pushes, and I feel that I have a decent grasp on the issues pertaining to macro in this game that contributed to those situations (although feel free to offer criticisms/advice related to that if you want).
My question is, when I scout my opponent in ZvP, I feel very confident about knowing what he is doing and when he is doing it based on worker scout + ramp information + later OL sacs.
That said, I don't have a firm understanding of when I should say "hey, roach/hydra would be better in this case" or "muta/ling would be the better choice vs this build."
In this replay, I chose muta/ling, and I'm not sure it was the better decision, even though it worked in my favor in this game against this opponent.
Would roach/hydra have been the better choice here? What information should I base my decision on? How do I factor the following in:
- Tech - Opener - First gateway units - Map positions - General build order - ?????
Thanks for any insight. It's the worst feeling in the world to know exactly what my opponent is doing and not have an informed decision.
edit: also, I watched the MrBitters coaching sessions with incontrol and machine, and they both advocate different playstyles seemingly independent of what the protoss is doing. This confuses me more than anything. I feel like given what I see the protoss doing, one build should be superior for some time X during the game.
As a Protoss player, whenever I see a zerg properly execute a mutaling (not lose any mutas at all, constant harass), it's probably one of the most stressful parts of playing P. Especially if I open robo, which many P players still do, I have to scramble to get a twilight council out or a stargate. From a diamond protoss perspective (2500 diamond here), properly executed mutaling is one of the scariest things a zerg can do to me.
On January 26 2011 14:39 darkevilxe wrote: As a Protoss player, whenever I see a zerg properly execute a mutaling (not lose any mutas at all, constant harass), it's probably one of the most stressful parts of playing P. Especially if I open robo, which many P players still do, I have to scramble to get a twilight council out or a stargate. From a diamond protoss perspective (2500 diamond here), properly executed mutaling is one of the scariest things a zerg can do to me.
So for you, if you go robo and he goes muta/ling, then that's bad news for you.
It seems like from what I've been discussing iwth friends, the key is really just looking for whether it's robo or stargate that determines the tech path for z. Does that sound reasonable?
Well, as a protoss player, when I see mutaling, I usually tech up to blink stalkers, colossus, and zealots. The blink stalkers are more for crisis control against the mutas, while the colossus/zealots will roast your lings. I've found this quite effective and so I'd say muta ling isn't actually that great of a strat unless you control very well, picking off units at the right places, killing stray colossus, etc etc
I found roach/hydra/ corruptor a much, MUCH harder composition to deal with. Hydras are a very nice dps dealer against gateway units, roaches tank shots, while corruptors can kill colossus quite quickly, especially before they get like 7-8 colossus. After you've killed their colossus, your roach hydra composition can usually beat their ground army.
The corruptors can also serve as a very nice late game transition. Brood lords really, really mess up protoss in almost every single way. I honestly can't find a way to beat brood lords, especially if they have hydras to support them.
My sources? Personally getting owned by roach/hydra/colossus while using stalker/zealot/colossus and beating mutaling quite easily
Oh, final note, I find that Mutas kill buildings quite slowly, so I have decided to say "f it" and just 1a into their base and killings most of their stuff before retreating some of my stalkers.
Edit: as the 2500 diamond protoss said, a very well executed mutaling is extremely scary because they can use their mutas and basically do free damage to you and you can't do very much against it. I just believe that it's easier and still effective to do a roach/hydra/corruptor mix.
I feel, as a Protoss player, that Zerg can generally pick either in any situation and be fairly successful. I don't think Robo or Stargate is really a good decision making signal, as Protoss wants both eventually, and thus doesn't lose a whole lot by switching. Also, I know that I, personally, often just don't pick a tech until Zerg does (other than maybe making a Council; using Hallucination to scout), because my Gateway units will come out on top of pure Zergling or Zergling plus noncommitted Roach. I think that it really comes down to pressure; if you're on a small map like Steppes, or if he's playing very aggressively, favoring Roach/Hydra is probably better, because it does better versus pressure. Meanwhile, if he's more passive, or if the map is like cross positions on Shakuras, Muta/Ling is probably preferable, because it has incredible mobility and is strong when left unpressured. However, if you are generally much more comfortable with one than the other, you can probably choose to favor it in all but the most extreme situations, as both are typically effective.
Muta/Ling is no longer viable IF the protoss goes stargate, which most should be doing now a days because its very effective.
As more and more protoss figure out the strength of Stargate opennings, mutalisks will almost never be seen anymore.
If the protoss player still isn't openning stargate (which I don't know why), Muta+Ling is not a bad composition for multi pronged attacks and devasting harassment.
Roach/Hydra/Corrupter is pretty much the composition in the mid game as of late. Stargate opennings force the zerg to be defensive, forfiet map control, and the possibility of picking off a few overlords/drones is a nice bonus. This is what forces hydralisks, in order to gain back some map control. The protoss player should almost always transition into collusi at this point. Which then forces corrupters.
Protoss players are beginning to get smarter. They understand how fragile, weak, slow, and expensive the hydralisk is, so forcing it is almost always a good thing.
So the answer to your question is if the protoss for some reason isn't going stargate, then Muta/Ling is not a bad mid-game composition. If the protoss is going for a stargate openning then Roach/Hydra and eventually corrupters.
I'm 2700 Master Zerg and I'm having alot of trouble dealing with stargate opennings that go into the macro game.
Ive noticed after you scout that the toss player is goin stargate, i like to get some corroptors out for defence at first and then get some muta out, once u chased of the pheonix u can bring ur muta and corroptors to his base and use muta to take out probes and corroptors to defend them. While using up my minerals in zerglings and expanding, if hes going blink heavy gateway units youll need roach to defend early on most times with hydra being ur next switch, just get corroptors out before he starts attacking with colloses. Most of the time its best to find your own style on how u like to play the matchup, most of the times youll find your decision making will make your enemy do a certain thing. If u go heavy roach he most likely will go heavy imortal, so you can time tech switches agianst them. think about wat units u replenish your army with, one of the best things about zerg, if u want a completly different composition its not hard to do
On January 26 2011 15:07 Smigi wrote: Muta/Ling is no longer viable IF the protoss goes stargate, which most should be doing now a days because its very effective.
As more and more protoss figure out the strength of Stargate opennings, mutalisks will almost never be seen anymore.
If the protoss player still isn't openning stargate (which I don't know why), Muta+Ling is not a bad composition for multi pronged attacks and devasting harassment.
Roach/Hydra/Corrupter is pretty much the composition in the mid game as of late. Stargate opennings force the zerg to be defensive, forfiet map control, and the possibility of picking off a few overlords/drones is a nice bonus. This is what forces hydralisks, in order to gain back some map control. The protoss player should almost always transition into collusi at this point. Which then forces corrupters.
Protoss players are beginning to get smarter. They understand how fragile, weak, slow, and expensive the hydralisk is, so forcing it is almost always a good thing.
So the answer to your question is if the protoss for some reason isn't going stargate, then Muta/Ling is not a bad mid-game composition. If the protoss is going for a stargate openning then Roach/Hydra and eventually corrupters.
I'm 2700 Master Zerg and I'm having alot of trouble dealing with stargate opennings that go into the macro game.
care to elborate by what you mean with stargate openings? phoenixs or voids mostly?
I go muta ling, when my mutas pop out I get roaches and baneling nest. I morph about 20 banelings and get roaches, when protoss pushes, baneling drops and he stares at his 0 army and says "wtf".
But in all seriousness, muta/ling is risky and harder to do, but I love it and wouldn't go any other way. Also, if the protoss preemptively just blindly throws down 2-3 cannons per base and has stalkers, just go roach, no point in blowing that much on mutas without getting any harass.
Early voids are completely useless against Zerg - Queen counters ~2 easily and if you see him getting a stargate he'll probably be getting phoenixes out.
Unless you're great at mutalisk harass or play plat or lower leagues I'd go roach/hydra corruptor. Muta ling is deflected quite easily with proper cannon and stalker usage.
My opinion: Robo=muta/ling Stargate: favor roach/hydra, but corrupters might help out if you really, really want mutas Council tech: tough call...roach/hydra is great against heavy WG play, but it's hard to maneuver hydras against storm if they go HT
Personally, I find muta/ling to be a completely shit strategy against anyone good. If the toss does a good timing push right as your mutas pop, it's basically complete auto lose. You have to defend with your first wave of mutas, you lose everything, then just get overwhelmed. I haven't gone muta/ling in like 2 months because it just doesn't work against a good toss.
I would suggest doing roach/hydra/ling, which is a very stable mid-game composition in my opinion, and makes the transition into corrupter/brood lord a bit more fluid.
Muta/ling isn't that viable anymore but occasionally it can work.
The biggest factor to deciding it what to play is the map layout / positioning.
If the map is big, has a short air distance and most importantly a easy to defend choke it favors muta/ling. The reverse favors roach hydra obviously. Muta/ling is very dependant on spine crawlers to hold various timings and to be able to get muta's (which suck in battle's till they get massed). Therefore you need a large ground distance and a good choke, cross position LT and shakuras are the best muta/ling maps basically. Having far away expansions is also really important as muta/ling is an economy strat, you expo while keeping them afraid to mvoe out with muta/ling.
That is obviously the most crucial point but opposing strategies can also matter. Stargate openings are quite good against spire openings so if they go stargate you don't really want muta's. Though you can still use the spire later on usually as most P follow up air play by colossi.
Basically Z is best off going roach/hydra always UNLESS the map favors muta/ling AND you see them not going stargate. For example just sac a ovie just about when your lair tech is finishing, which is about the time P usually decides there next move (supposing they have expanded). If they 6 gate you go roach, if they got stargate you go hydra/roach and if they got robo you go muta.
Also I think it's worth mentioning that roach don't really need hydra with them. Pure roach is generally more effective then roach/hydra, it is just weaker against air. Toss can't ever really suprise you with air though as you got queens to hold of low numbers of air so you can often just wait with hydra den till you see a stargate, the hydra den builds fast anyway. Otherwise it is just better to go pure roach instead of straight up hydra/roach. The most common mistake I see zerg making agianst P, even at top level, is to go with hydra AND roach too fast. It is much better to save the cost of the hydra den for a bit and get the upgrades or an extra expansion faster. Every building costs a drone for zerg so delaying a building has a huge benefit, something people tend to forget...
On January 26 2011 15:07 Smigi wrote: Muta/Ling is no longer viable IF the protoss goes stargate, which most should be doing now a days because its very effective.
As more and more protoss figure out the strength of Stargate opennings, mutalisks will almost never be seen anymore.
I disagree. As a +2500 Diamond Zerg player, I almost exclusively play muta ling vs protoss (on larger maps), especially when I see a stargate. A few pre-emptive spore crawlers negate most harassment and once the protoss player sees he cannot kill any of my overlords, queens, or drones, the phoenix production usually stops. Even if it does not, I like to juke phoenix micro and often win the phoenix battles.
How? I have my mutas fly away and when the phoenixes follow, I immediately double back and snipe one or two. When the phoenixes start flying away, I fly away. Unless the toss has perfect micro, I usually end up killing every last phoenix. Getting +1 and +2 attack on mutas asap really helps too. Some of my favorite moments vs toss are when my muta micro beats another player's phoenix micro. ^_^
As the game progresses, however, I find that I must deal significant damage to the protoss economy, and mass upgraded blink stalker / colossus can really hurt. This is usually late game after I am at least at 4 bases. At this point, I add Ultralisks and sometimes roaches. If the protoss player is getting all cutsey with blink stalkers, a few fungal growths work wonders, and you'll already have your infestor pit on your way to your hive.
Robo/Council-Muta/ling (might wanna add some blings) Stargate/4 gate-Roach/Hydra If he's expanding early and dropping down cannons, go roach hydra. He wont be prepared for your push
I think some maps, roach/hydra just isn't smart compared to muta/ling. Chokes not only make your spinecrawler defense better in mutaling, but act against roach hydra quite badly when forcefields are involved. Lost Temple is particularly bad for roach hydra I often think; all those chokes in the middle and outside the naturals, as well as those cliffs everywhere for collosi to be able to kite easily....
Lost Temple, close positions Shakuras (with the small choke and rocks seperating your mains), and close air meta, all probably favour mutaling.
if you trust your micro to be that much better than your opponents, then sure. But if they are micro'ign their phoenix's, you WILL lose every muta and they will lose nothing. The mechanics give the advantage to the phoenix's w/ superior range and speed.
cross position on lt makes mutas extremely powerful. scrap station protoss pretty much expects muta (and these days almost never see it because of phoenix change).
On January 27 2011 01:23 pwnasaurus wrote: Personally, I find muta/ling to be a completely shit strategy against anyone good. If the toss does a good timing push right as your mutas pop, it's basically complete auto lose. You have to defend with your first wave of mutas, you lose everything, then just get overwhelmed. I haven't gone muta/ling in like 2 months because it just doesn't work against a good toss.
That's not even mentioning the new pheonix buff.
~2.5k master zerg here.
This. Roac/hydra/corrupter into BL is generally safer, more solid, and just more adabtable overall
if you trust your micro to be that much better than your opponents, then sure. But if they are micro'ign their phoenix's, you WILL lose every muta and they will lose nothing. The mechanics give the advantage to the phoenix's w/ superior range and speed.
That isn't realistic for any human level of control, and this also assumes that the protoss player is focusing on this battle at the exact second that the mutas double back. Yes, phoenixes are a great choice against mutalisks, but you can't just say 'hellions can kite roaches indefinitely, so your roaches will all get taken out without the terran taking a single point of damage.'
On January 26 2011 15:07 Smigi wrote: Muta/Ling is no longer viable IF the protoss goes stargate, which most should be doing now a days because its very effective.
As more and more protoss figure out the strength of Stargate opennings, mutalisks will almost never be seen anymore.
I disagree. As a +2500 Diamond Zerg player, I almost exclusively play muta ling vs protoss (on larger maps), especially when I see a stargate. A few pre-emptive spore crawlers negate most harassment and once the protoss player sees he cannot kill any of my overlords, queens, or drones, the phoenix production usually stops. Even if it does not, I like to juke phoenix micro and often win the phoenix battles.
How? I have my mutas fly away and when the phoenixes follow, I immediately double back and snipe one or two. When the phoenixes start flying away, I fly away. Unless the toss has perfect micro, I usually end up killing every last phoenix. Getting +1 and +2 attack on mutas asap really helps too. Some of my favorite moments vs toss are when my muta micro beats another player's phoenix micro. ^_^
As the game progresses, however, I find that I must deal significant damage to the protoss economy, and mass upgraded blink stalker / colossus can really hurt. This is usually late game after I am at least at 4 bases. At this point, I add Ultralisks and sometimes roaches. If the protoss player is getting all cutsey with blink stalkers, a few fungal growths work wonders, and you'll already have your infestor pit on your way to your hive.
TL;DR My Mutalisks > Phoenixes
While I don't agree that Muta micro guarantees this, I do think that the degree phoenixes counter mutas is often greatly overexaggerated. Muta's have a superior acceleration to Phoenixes. Thus the muta's can make their classic turns on a dime, but the phoenixes have to make curve in order to make a change in direction, allowing the mutas to take potshot on them. Though, i don't think this breaks the counter either. When I use phoenixes, i tend to have my main army behind them in order to do the same to the mutas.
Course, back on topic. few people seem to realize, having a few corrupters versus phoenixes with your mutas effectively protects heavy damage to your mutas. if the phoenix ever gets in range, they'll get hit by the corrupters. In short, as a toss, I still fear MutaLing more then other zerg strats. What's even better, is that it can easily and quickly transition to Roach Hydra at any time.
IMO, muta openings are very strong if you can get there comfortably and P doesn't open phoenixes. If you scout a robo, P will want at least 1 unit from the robo before he attacks, so if you feel like you can get your spire complete before that attack, go mutas 100%. If you see mass gateway, play it safe with roaches. If you see twilight, it's blink or DTs. For blink stalkers, hydras are the best choice, but roaches or muta/ling works fine too if you have enough.
As the most popular opening for protoss, right now, is stargate harass into robo and expand, most suggestions don't make much sense
Currently as zerg, i go for a roach heavy army first, and then add on mutalisks as they take down voidrays quite easily, and with 3 or less colossi you can targetfire those down quit quickly with mutas. If he makes a lot of pheonix, then add corruptors and only fight in battles where protoss wont run away.
You obviously want a lot of queens in the start if he is harassing you with voidrays/pheonix, those also help out in the battle later on. This is what works the best for me right now in zvp at a 2950 master level.
Hydras just melt away instantly to colossi or high templars, I don't find them much use except for timing pushes if the protoss fails a 4gate and wants to transition into something else.
I feel the decision is primarily map and position dependent. In my opinion the question should be asked, how important is mobility here? For example on maps where zerg is forced to take a 3rd far away from their main then mobility is very useful for defense. Certainly, any map positions where you find yourself close by air but far by ground is ideal for muta harass such as scrap, 12/3, 6/9 positions on LT etc. The biggest strength of mutas against P is punishing a P for moving out while still being able to return for defense! If it's a map where that seems possible, it's a good option to go muta.
I dont think mutas are viable in ZvP anymore. Phoenix, Blink stalkers, Stalker sentry, HTs or archons counter them. If you go mutas you are too vulnerable for early attacks like 6 gates pressure and even if a toss doesnt open with stargate tech he can throw down one or two stargates an chrono boost out phoenix so fast you wont be able to do enough damage to pay for the mutas
On January 27 2011 01:23 pwnasaurus wrote: Personally, I find muta/ling to be a completely shit strategy against anyone good. If the toss does a good timing push right as your mutas pop, it's basically complete auto lose. You have to defend with your first wave of mutas, you lose everything, then just get overwhelmed. I haven't gone muta/ling in like 2 months because it just doesn't work against a good toss.
That's not even mentioning the new pheonix buff.
~2.5k master zerg here.
This. Roac/hydra/corrupter into BL is generally safer, more solid, and just more adabtable overall
judging from the recent development this composition fails hard against colossus/void unless you are able to catch protoss with like 200 to 150 supply
I won this game, even though I had horrible macro. I barely survived both pushes, and I feel that I have a decent grasp on the issues pertaining to macro in this game that contributed to those situations (although feel free to offer criticisms/advice related to that if you want).
My question is, when I scout my opponent in ZvP, I feel very confident about knowing what he is doing and when he is doing it based on worker scout + ramp information + later OL sacs.
That said, I don't have a firm understanding of when I should say "hey, roach/hydra would be better in this case" or "muta/ling would be the better choice vs this build."
In this replay, I chose muta/ling, and I'm not sure it was the better decision, even though it worked in my favor in this game against this opponent.
Would roach/hydra have been the better choice here? What information should I base my decision on? How do I factor the following in:
- Tech - Opener - First gateway units - Map positions - General build order - ?????
Thanks for any insight. It's the worst feeling in the world to know exactly what my opponent is doing and not have an informed decision.
edit: also, I watched the MrBitters coaching sessions with incontrol and machine, and they both advocate different playstyles seemingly independent of what the protoss is doing. This confuses me more than anything. I feel like given what I see the protoss doing, one build should be superior for some time X during the game.
The fact that zerg players feel like they need to choose between two builds total vs. the multi-faceted protoss army is kind of a problem with the players and not the race. Posts like this are indicative. I recommend checking out games from Lalush, I see him using alot of rare tactics/unit comps as zerg and he does quite well with them. Hes one of the first zergs I see incorporate infestors into his first 200 food army and make room for broodlords and stuff reasonably early. I wish zergs would break away from choosing between muta/ling and roach/hydra and start incorporating more complex mixes, like FD did to overcome zerg weakness in season 1 for instance. You get this fat economy as zerg and then dont use it because youre maxed out on tier 2 against a tier 3 deathball. Your race does more than muta/ling and roach/hydra believe it or not and very view players are experimenting. It seems like those that are experimenting, like Idra and Ret, are experimenting with efficient openings and early defenses... I would like to see some good zerg players really try out some unit mixes or timings that make zerg less predictable.
Incontrol was saying on that JP with friends VoD that Machine's big issue is hes very predictable and always plays a macro game. I feel that 90% of the zergs i face on ladder are very predictable so beating them basically feels like beating the 4 gate or something from the ZvP perspective... you know its coming, you throw down the appropriate defenses like a couple spines and cut some drones and you cruise to victory. Maybe try being unpredictable? I know personally when I see even a small amount of roaches, or scout the warren, mutas are the last thing on my mind... Ive seen some top players start with roaches and make a nice transition to mutas... Is it the utmost efficient build out there? Maybe not, but since zergs basically stay on low gas counts when they arent going mutas i feel some experimentation is in order... Some of the ZvP's ive lost over the last month have felt this way... they open like ling with a handful of roaches and ill scout pretty diligently, maybe even see a spire... but then i engage and break even with a roach army or even retreat with sentry and a huge fucking muta ball comes and crushes me while im sitting there with 2 immortals that could have been an expansion with cannons or something more useful. Its always a WTF moment like, how could they possible have all that stuff AND roaches. I personally don't think Roach/Muta is out of the question but you will need to find an effective way of safely getting there without being obvious.
TLDR: i hate posts that ask these black and white questions with so many unexplored grey areas. Zergs at least around ~2600 masters attack with armies that are predictable and easy to respond to because weve seen them all 100 times before. There are very specific responses already aware of.. .show me something new
Roach hydra is a must, consider that you can get a spawning pool on the way anyhow. Roach/ling/hydra is a very potent combination, able to take down most robo/gateway combinations before templar and colossi.
Roaches are also a great way to defend those early gate pushes and 4gates- getting queens along the way covers the 2gate/2star base (however, smart 2g2s players get a phoenix AND a voidray to deal the most damage to the queens.) Spire can also be obtained along the way if it goes on to 3base games- so either way, a roach/hydra OPENER is best, turning into a macro game where you ADAPT to your opponent's playstyle, because adapting is a must.
On a side note, as toss, I rarely see roach hydra anymore, unless I'm going heavy VR. otherwise, the zerg almost always goes mass roach nowadays, with obvious transitions in the lategame. This seems to do pretty well, as roaches seem to have few weaknesses, save for immortals and VR's, and are easily mass produced, as well as much better at harassing. Pretty much all replays I have vs Zerg show similar strats, with the exception of ling rushes, which usually follows into Roach Corrupter when I add Collosi, then Roach Brood Lord as a late game transition.
I've also been watching several zerg streams, and they all seem to be doing the same thing, but for some reason noone seems to mention it in any threads or topics... is that because people consider the possibility of hydras for use as AA part of the "roach hydra" mix, or that people don't realize it's going on?
I think muta/ling isn't so bad against robo. mutas constantly pressures your opponet while you can expand. When i go muta/ling, i literally spend all my gas before my third base (except speedling upgrade) on mutalisks. Increased amounts of mutas can snipe down pylons, zealot groups that could prove a problem to your zerglings and ofc, worker raids. Using this distraction, you can expand, quickly grab your third and fourth while the P is turtled up with his main and natural. When you go muta heavy, you will have lots of mineral surplus. You can dump all of this in speedlings. If the P responds with mass stalkers, your speedlings will make quick work of them. If they go stargate-->phoenix, then make additional queens at your bases+1-2 spore crawlers. With your superior macro, you can easily transit to Roach/hydra, or just Muta, Hydra, zerglings. However that combo wouldnt fare so will against mass chargelots, but its highly possible that the P wont go zealots in response to early mutalisks attacks. Going phoenix disables the option of transition to colossi. Even if they went colossi, you have corruptor access via muta/ling spire tech. If you can out macro your opponent by large amounts of mutas, you can out macro him.
I haven't been going muta-ling in ZvP for a while, but I feel like it can still be viable in some situations. Seems like if you can get to a situation where your opponent cannot 6-gate you and cannot double-stargate you, you could go muta-ling. I'm not so sure about going for muta-ling after seeing a forge FE. Is the 6-gate timing off a forge FE as fast as a off a 3-warpgate expand?
Protoss has basically 4 tech options: only gateways, gateways + robos, gateways + stargates, gateways + templar/blink. Muta-ling is strong against a 2-base gateways + robo composition, but will lose to only gateways (6 gate) and gateway + stargate. Gateway + templar isn't really viable (nobody does it off 2 base), and gateways + blink is pretty much the same as just gates. So, in order to create a situation in which you can muta-ling, you need your opponent to go for a gateway + robo composition, or be able to hold an all gate with just spines and lings, which is really, really risky. You could trick your opponent into getting a robo if you show a hydra den or a roach warren (which could look like some sort of wierd hydra build or roach-burrow). I'm gonna watch some games and check out the timing.
Edit: check out this game, to see a hold against a 6-gate push. Sen does it on LT, barely, losing all of his drones at his nat, with some mistakes by Socke (his stalkers were shooting at overlords for a long time, not killing the remaining spines/lings). I think forcing/tricking a robo is really the only way to viably go muta-ling. What's better to try and force a robo, hydra den or roach warren? Will a protoss player believe that you're going 2-base hydra? If he does, will it convince him to go for collosi, or will he stick with his 6-gate? If he sees the roach warren, will he go for fast obs/immortals?
On January 28 2011 07:54 Jayrod wrote: TLDR: i hate posts that ask these black and white questions with so many unexplored grey areas. Zergs at least around ~2600 masters attack with armies that are predictable and easy to respond to because weve seen them all 100 times before. There are very specific responses already aware of.. .show me something new
It's really not black and white at all. This is a bare-bones game-strategy question. Obviously any game strategy is to be highly adaptable. If he goes 1gate 4stargate or something kooky, it's not like I won't respond to that.
What you've generalized this to is akin to saying "Terran is so predictable.. it's either mech or bioball..." I mean... it's just not a real argument.
You need core units in an army composition, and the question here is which dominant unit composition is generally more advantageous and why.
I think there have been several great posts helping elucidate which is better in which situations.
On January 31 2011 18:44 Lobotomist wrote: I haven't been going muta-ling in ZvP for a while, but I feel like it can still be viable in some situations. Seems like if you can get to a situation where your opponent cannot 6-gate you and cannot double-stargate you, you could go muta-ling. I'm not so sure about going for muta-ling after seeing a forge FE. Is the 6-gate timing off a forge FE as fast as a off a 3-warpgate expand?
Protoss has basically 4 tech options: only gateways, gateways + robos, gateways + stargates, gateways + templar/blink. Muta-ling is strong against a 2-base gateways + robo composition, but will lose to only gateways (6 gate) and gateway + stargate. Gateway + templar isn't really viable (nobody does it off 2 base), and gateways + blink is pretty much the same as just gates. So, in order to create a situation in which you can muta-ling, you need your opponent to go for a gateway + robo composition, or be able to hold an all gate with just spines and lings, which is really, really risky. You could trick your opponent into getting a robo if you show a hydra den or a roach warren (which could look like some sort of wierd hydra build or roach-burrow). I'm gonna watch some games and check out the timing.
Edit: check out this game, to see a hold against a 6-gate push. Sen does it on LT, barely, losing all of his drones at his nat, with some mistakes by Socke (his stalkers were shooting at overlords for a long time, not killing the remaining spines/lings). I think forcing/tricking a robo is really the only way to viably go muta-ling. What's better to try and force a robo, hydra den or roach warren? Will a protoss player believe that you're going 2-base hydra? If he does, will it convince him to go for collosi, or will he stick with his 6-gate? If he sees the roach warren, will he go for fast obs/immortals?
This is a pretty well-thought-out post and i like the logic train here.
Perhaps if I decide to go muta/ling again, I'll at least open with roach. Lately I've been defending 6gate with only spines/lings and a handful of muta, but it seems like roach in general would just be a stronger opening, especially if my protoss opponent stays on the ground.
As a gold zerg player I feel the best combo against a protoss that doesn’t cheese and does a standard gate, or robo/gate opening is the roach/hydra/corruptor. The roaches are good against most gate units, and do fairly well as a tanking unit against colossi, while the hydra does a good job of killing immortals/air units, and then the corruptors destroy colossi and can be eventually teched into the brood force counter ultra end game zerg. I think the roaches give you a good opportunity to hit them early mid game with lair tech roaches if you they are going heavy gate, and if you are on the defense nothing is better than roaches + speed on creep with some spines with a few queens. The hydras help you shut down most gateway/immortal pushes and defend against void/phoenix. Then once you get corruptors you pretty much have no need to worry about air/colossi and the rest should fall into place. Also since roach/hydra use same upgrades it makes life a lot easier. Only way I see toss defeating a roach/hydra/corruptor is if the zerg messes up by not upgrading, no detection, bad scouting or the toss has you outnumbered by a significant amount. The muta/ling/bane can be shut down by any normal toss army backed with High Templar or Phoenix. To me Lings/muta/bane is so easily countered by HTs it is ridiculous and the phoenix now with the cheaper cost and reduced build time allows for toss to counter mutas easier than ever. I always like muta/ling verse terran, roach/hydra/corruptor v toss, and roach/muta against zerg as my staples unless I want to try some cheese or weird strat to mix things up.
The fact that zerg players feel like they need to choose between two builds total vs. the multi-faceted protoss army is kind of a problem with the players and not the race. Posts like this are indicative. I recommend checking out games from Lalush, I see him using alot of rare tactics/unit comps as zerg and he does quite well with them. Hes one of the first zergs I see incorporate infestors into his first 200 food army and make room for broodlords and stuff reasonably early. I wish zergs would break away from choosing between muta/ling and roach/hydra and start incorporating more complex mixes, like FD did to overcome zerg weakness in season 1 for instance. You get this fat economy as zerg and then dont use it because youre maxed out on tier 2 against a tier 3 deathball. Your race does more than muta/ling and roach/hydra believe it or not and very view players are experimenting. It seems like those that are experimenting, like Idra and Ret, are experimenting with efficient openings and early defenses... I would like to see some good zerg players really try out some unit mixes or timings that make zerg less predictable.
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I'm not really following this line of thought. If you're going to invest in mutas, you will find that you can't do anything at all against Protoss with only a few except kill probes in the event he forgot cannons. Protoss units have a lot more HP, and warp gates allow him to reinforce any area with a few stalkers without having to cross the map. You need to get enough to be able to kill small groups of stalkers without taking losses, and that doesn't leave you with enough gas to do much else. FD's style of play with fewer mutas was against Terran, because you only need a few mutas to kill medivacs and cut off Terran reinforcements as they cross the map.
As for leaving supply for your tier 3 army, top Zergs tend to just trade armies as they hit 200 food before their opponent, then remax with those units, rather than sitting at less than 200 food for the long period it takes to morph a hive and greater spire. Earlier Infestors are not a bad idea by any means though if they will be useful, but that's not to say pros should be grabbing them every time either.
On January 27 2011 01:23 pwnasaurus wrote: Personally, I find muta/ling to be a completely shit strategy against anyone good. If the toss does a good timing push right as your mutas pop, it's basically complete auto lose. You have to defend with your first wave of mutas, you lose everything, then just get overwhelmed. I haven't gone muta/ling in like 2 months because it just doesn't work against a good toss.
That's not even mentioning the new pheonix buff.
~2.5k master zerg here.
This. Roac/hydra/corrupter into BL is generally safer, more solid, and just more adabtable overall
judging from the recent development this composition fails hard against colossus/void unless you are able to catch protoss with like 200 to 150 supply
Based on the amount of money they'll be dumping into an army as expensive as that, it's very likely you will actually be able to get that kind of supply advantage.
I fail miserably whenever I try muta/ling in masters but that may just be the result of shitty micro and superior competition.
I'm not a fan of roach/hydra either. Hydras are slow, gas heavy, delay my spire and hive tech, and have low HP. Going hydra's instead of mass roach also allows your opponent to get his collosi count too high when you want him to be pumping immortals. So... for AA I'll add spores/queens as needed. Roach/ling (lings are a must to tank immortal shots and prevent stalkers from retreating) into roach/brood lord is the only comp I can beat toss with these days.
On January 27 2011 01:52 orcslayermac wrote: I disagree. As a +2500 Diamond Zerg player, I almost exclusively play muta ling vs protoss (on larger maps), especially when I see a stargate. A few pre-emptive spore crawlers negate most harassment and once the protoss player sees he cannot kill any of my overlords, queens, or drones, the phoenix production usually stops. Even if it does not, I like to juke phoenix micro and often win the phoenix battles.
How? I have my mutas fly away and when the phoenixes follow, I immediately double back and snipe one or two. When the phoenixes start flying away, I fly away. Unless the toss has perfect micro, I usually end up killing every last phoenix. Getting +1 and +2 attack on mutas asap really helps too. Some of my favorite moments vs toss are when my muta micro beats another player's phoenix micro. ^_^
As the game progresses, however, I find that I must deal significant damage to the protoss economy, and mass upgraded blink stalker / colossus can really hurt. This is usually late game after I am at least at 4 bases. At this point, I add Ultralisks and sometimes roaches. If the protoss player is getting all cutsey with blink stalkers, a few fungal growths work wonders, and you'll already have your infestor pit on your way to your hive.
TL;DR My Mutalisks > Phoenixes
You know, I may only be a fairly middle quality plat player, and I've played a few customs against high diamond zergs...I almost always open gate/forge/phoenix/expand, if I see even ONE muta I've already won, there is nothing a zerg can do once I get >3 phoenix on the field if they wasted the resources on a spire. Constant scouting with phoenix also keeps the muta number in check, phoenix kill mutas so fast that even with spores/queens I can usually snipe the mutas without losing a single phoenix, and then transitioning into 2base 5gate/stargate play supercedes anything else a zerg can do with muta.
The issue I think is that now with the buff to phoenixes in the last patch the protoss have an easy direct counter against your mutas. The protoss now have the means of shutting down probably your most important unit in the muta/ling army with their phoenixes. This brings it down to lings v warpgate/robo, which does not really cut it. With the roach/hydra/corruptor there is no 1 unit a protoss can create to shut down an entire facet of your attack, making the combo more effective. I think muta/ling works if you have a sure advantage over the player due to some occurrence in the early game but if you are on even grounds or behind the roach/hydra/corruptor is the best. Also with the current meta game, due to the patch, I believe most protoss now have an earlier warpgate against zerg because it is a good harassment/scout unit to pick off queens and ovis. So even if you surprise them with mutas it might not be hard for them to counter after your initial muta push.
On January 26 2011 16:15 Yonkid wrote: Early voids are completely useless against Zerg - Queen counters ~2 easily and if you see him getting a stargate he'll probably be getting phoenixes out.
You use both, voids and phoenix. You Gravitation beam his queens, let your voids charge one one, and then take out another. Voids are useful because they can punish the expo once the queens are out of the way. Not to mention you can CB out phoenix and get cross map with them to GB any other queens that pop.
You pretty much need 3 queens to defend this, or spores, and as P, if you're wasting drones on spores that early in the game, then I've succeeded. I can retreat then and pick off your scouting overlords. Queens cost 3 drones, so that extra queen is costing you drones as well. Also, you need the 3 queens by the time my air arrives at your base. I GB one and focus it down, and then focus the other. By this time, I already have my next void or phoenix building or on the way. By this point, you probably don't have the AA needed.
Granted, part of this is hiding this so it can't be scouted until its too late so that hydras aren't on the board yet. But its pretty hard to stop since Z early game AA isn't so good.
Also was thinking when doing this, you could wall off with a zealot and 2 sentries (one to FF if needed and the other to hallucinate), and 2 buildings. Instead of warp gate tech, you could get hallucination instead and bring an additional void as a meatshield since Z doesn't get Overseers
On January 26 2011 14:47 Zephan wrote: Well, as a protoss player, when I see mutaling, I usually tech up to blink stalkers, colossus, and zealots. The blink stalkers are more for crisis control against the mutas, while the colossus/zealots will roast your lings. I've found this quite effective and so I'd say muta ling isn't actually that great of a strat unless you control very well, picking off units at the right places, killing stray colossus, etc etc
I found roach/hydra/ corruptor a much, MUCH harder composition to deal with. Hydras are a very nice dps dealer against gateway units, roaches tank shots, while corruptors can kill colossus quite quickly, especially before they get like 7-8 colossus. After you've killed their colossus, your roach hydra composition can usually beat their ground army.
The corruptors can also serve as a very nice late game transition. Brood lords really, really mess up protoss in almost every single way. I honestly can't find a way to beat brood lords, especially if they have hydras to support them.
My sources? Personally getting owned by roach/hydra/colossus while using stalker/zealot/colossus and beating mutaling quite easily
Oh, final note, I find that Mutas kill buildings quite slowly, so I have decided to say "f it" and just 1a into their base and killings most of their stuff before retreating some of my stalkers.
Edit: as the 2500 diamond protoss said, a very well executed mutaling is extremely scary because they can use their mutas and basically do free damage to you and you can't do very much against it. I just believe that it's easier and still effective to do a roach/hydra/corruptor mix.
Watch some of MrBitter's practice sessions with 88iNcontrol. 88iNcontrol uses voidrays and a seemingly unit composition to destroy Zerg with Broodlords. I really feel that keeping your colossus from dying, even if it means sacrificing your gateway units to an equal/slightly lesser supply of zerg units, it paramount. This is because if you keep your 3-5 colossus, you can simply remax with voidrays/zealots/stalkers and cut off colossus production, doing so utter destroys EVERY zerg unit comp is micro'd correctly. Or you could play like oGsSKS and just sit on 2-3 bases and make that perfect army from the get go.
On January 27 2011 01:23 pwnasaurus wrote: Personally, I find muta/ling to be a completely shit strategy against anyone good. If the toss does a good timing push right as your mutas pop, it's basically complete auto lose. You have to defend with your first wave of mutas, you lose everything, then just get overwhelmed. I haven't gone muta/ling in like 2 months because it just doesn't work against a good toss.
That's not even mentioning the new pheonix buff.
~2.5k master zerg here.
I agree with this pretty much. Mutaling was a good strategy before, but Protoss know how to respond to it now. There's a push you can do as a Protoss with 5 or 6 gateways that hits just before your mutalisks pop and it's very hard to hold. If the Protoss suspects mutalisk, they can add gateways, mass up, and time it to hit right as your spire finishes. You'll have no reinforcements, and it will be up to lings and spine crawlers to hold off a big army. You'll most definitely have to defend with your mutalisk, and meanwhile the Protoss can macro back at home and just add some cannons - it's a bad situation for Zergs.
if the opponent opens with some sort of robo build, muta ling is better. if they go stargate then you have to go roach hydra. if they stay on gateways only you just need mass roach with burrow ups
In my experience, muta-ling can be demolished by a well timed protoss all-in, so roach hydra is necessary to just survive, unless you can get 4 bases up quickly(this is not possible against most all-ins). You'll likely need to replace your army 2-4x against the allin. Roach/hydra is always safer against any protoss play, because of muta-/ling vulnerabilities. This all depends on toss build order, whether or not he fast expands, or just 1-base allin. Also map is a big factor as some maps allow good muta harassment on a 1-base. A 1-base toss can typically easily hold off muta-ling, because it nullifies the maneuverability advantage zerg gets.
EPT
