I won this game, even though I had horrible macro. I barely survived both pushes, and I feel that I have a decent grasp on the issues pertaining to macro in this game that contributed to those situations (although feel free to offer criticisms/advice related to that if you want).
My question is, when I scout my opponent in ZvP, I feel very confident about knowing what he is doing and when he is doing it based on worker scout + ramp information + later OL sacs.
That said, I don't have a firm understanding of when I should say "hey, roach/hydra would be better in this case" or "muta/ling would be the better choice vs this build."
In this replay, I chose muta/ling, and I'm not sure it was the better decision, even though it worked in my favor in this game against this opponent.
Would roach/hydra have been the better choice here? What information should I base my decision on? How do I factor the following in:
- Tech - Opener - First gateway units - Map positions - General build order - ?????
Thanks for any insight. It's the worst feeling in the world to know exactly what my opponent is doing and not have an informed decision.
edit: also, I watched the MrBitters coaching sessions with incontrol and machine, and they both advocate different playstyles seemingly independent of what the protoss is doing. This confuses me more than anything. I feel like given what I see the protoss doing, one build should be superior for some time X during the game.
As a Protoss player, whenever I see a zerg properly execute a mutaling (not lose any mutas at all, constant harass), it's probably one of the most stressful parts of playing P. Especially if I open robo, which many P players still do, I have to scramble to get a twilight council out or a stargate. From a diamond protoss perspective (2500 diamond here), properly executed mutaling is one of the scariest things a zerg can do to me.
On January 26 2011 14:39 darkevilxe wrote: As a Protoss player, whenever I see a zerg properly execute a mutaling (not lose any mutas at all, constant harass), it's probably one of the most stressful parts of playing P. Especially if I open robo, which many P players still do, I have to scramble to get a twilight council out or a stargate. From a diamond protoss perspective (2500 diamond here), properly executed mutaling is one of the scariest things a zerg can do to me.
So for you, if you go robo and he goes muta/ling, then that's bad news for you.
It seems like from what I've been discussing iwth friends, the key is really just looking for whether it's robo or stargate that determines the tech path for z. Does that sound reasonable?
Well, as a protoss player, when I see mutaling, I usually tech up to blink stalkers, colossus, and zealots. The blink stalkers are more for crisis control against the mutas, while the colossus/zealots will roast your lings. I've found this quite effective and so I'd say muta ling isn't actually that great of a strat unless you control very well, picking off units at the right places, killing stray colossus, etc etc
I found roach/hydra/ corruptor a much, MUCH harder composition to deal with. Hydras are a very nice dps dealer against gateway units, roaches tank shots, while corruptors can kill colossus quite quickly, especially before they get like 7-8 colossus. After you've killed their colossus, your roach hydra composition can usually beat their ground army.
The corruptors can also serve as a very nice late game transition. Brood lords really, really mess up protoss in almost every single way. I honestly can't find a way to beat brood lords, especially if they have hydras to support them.
My sources? Personally getting owned by roach/hydra/colossus while using stalker/zealot/colossus and beating mutaling quite easily
Oh, final note, I find that Mutas kill buildings quite slowly, so I have decided to say "f it" and just 1a into their base and killings most of their stuff before retreating some of my stalkers.
Edit: as the 2500 diamond protoss said, a very well executed mutaling is extremely scary because they can use their mutas and basically do free damage to you and you can't do very much against it. I just believe that it's easier and still effective to do a roach/hydra/corruptor mix.
I feel, as a Protoss player, that Zerg can generally pick either in any situation and be fairly successful. I don't think Robo or Stargate is really a good decision making signal, as Protoss wants both eventually, and thus doesn't lose a whole lot by switching. Also, I know that I, personally, often just don't pick a tech until Zerg does (other than maybe making a Council; using Hallucination to scout), because my Gateway units will come out on top of pure Zergling or Zergling plus noncommitted Roach. I think that it really comes down to pressure; if you're on a small map like Steppes, or if he's playing very aggressively, favoring Roach/Hydra is probably better, because it does better versus pressure. Meanwhile, if he's more passive, or if the map is like cross positions on Shakuras, Muta/Ling is probably preferable, because it has incredible mobility and is strong when left unpressured. However, if you are generally much more comfortable with one than the other, you can probably choose to favor it in all but the most extreme situations, as both are typically effective.
Muta/Ling is no longer viable IF the protoss goes stargate, which most should be doing now a days because its very effective.
As more and more protoss figure out the strength of Stargate opennings, mutalisks will almost never be seen anymore.
If the protoss player still isn't openning stargate (which I don't know why), Muta+Ling is not a bad composition for multi pronged attacks and devasting harassment.
Roach/Hydra/Corrupter is pretty much the composition in the mid game as of late. Stargate opennings force the zerg to be defensive, forfiet map control, and the possibility of picking off a few overlords/drones is a nice bonus. This is what forces hydralisks, in order to gain back some map control. The protoss player should almost always transition into collusi at this point. Which then forces corrupters.
Protoss players are beginning to get smarter. They understand how fragile, weak, slow, and expensive the hydralisk is, so forcing it is almost always a good thing.
So the answer to your question is if the protoss for some reason isn't going stargate, then Muta/Ling is not a bad mid-game composition. If the protoss is going for a stargate openning then Roach/Hydra and eventually corrupters.
I'm 2700 Master Zerg and I'm having alot of trouble dealing with stargate opennings that go into the macro game.
Ive noticed after you scout that the toss player is goin stargate, i like to get some corroptors out for defence at first and then get some muta out, once u chased of the pheonix u can bring ur muta and corroptors to his base and use muta to take out probes and corroptors to defend them. While using up my minerals in zerglings and expanding, if hes going blink heavy gateway units youll need roach to defend early on most times with hydra being ur next switch, just get corroptors out before he starts attacking with colloses. Most of the time its best to find your own style on how u like to play the matchup, most of the times youll find your decision making will make your enemy do a certain thing. If u go heavy roach he most likely will go heavy imortal, so you can time tech switches agianst them. think about wat units u replenish your army with, one of the best things about zerg, if u want a completly different composition its not hard to do
On January 26 2011 15:07 Smigi wrote: Muta/Ling is no longer viable IF the protoss goes stargate, which most should be doing now a days because its very effective.
As more and more protoss figure out the strength of Stargate opennings, mutalisks will almost never be seen anymore.
If the protoss player still isn't openning stargate (which I don't know why), Muta+Ling is not a bad composition for multi pronged attacks and devasting harassment.
Roach/Hydra/Corrupter is pretty much the composition in the mid game as of late. Stargate opennings force the zerg to be defensive, forfiet map control, and the possibility of picking off a few overlords/drones is a nice bonus. This is what forces hydralisks, in order to gain back some map control. The protoss player should almost always transition into collusi at this point. Which then forces corrupters.
Protoss players are beginning to get smarter. They understand how fragile, weak, slow, and expensive the hydralisk is, so forcing it is almost always a good thing.
So the answer to your question is if the protoss for some reason isn't going stargate, then Muta/Ling is not a bad mid-game composition. If the protoss is going for a stargate openning then Roach/Hydra and eventually corrupters.
I'm 2700 Master Zerg and I'm having alot of trouble dealing with stargate opennings that go into the macro game.
care to elborate by what you mean with stargate openings? phoenixs or voids mostly?
I go muta ling, when my mutas pop out I get roaches and baneling nest. I morph about 20 banelings and get roaches, when protoss pushes, baneling drops and he stares at his 0 army and says "wtf".
But in all seriousness, muta/ling is risky and harder to do, but I love it and wouldn't go any other way. Also, if the protoss preemptively just blindly throws down 2-3 cannons per base and has stalkers, just go roach, no point in blowing that much on mutas without getting any harass.
Early voids are completely useless against Zerg - Queen counters ~2 easily and if you see him getting a stargate he'll probably be getting phoenixes out.
Unless you're great at mutalisk harass or play plat or lower leagues I'd go roach/hydra corruptor. Muta ling is deflected quite easily with proper cannon and stalker usage.
My opinion: Robo=muta/ling Stargate: favor roach/hydra, but corrupters might help out if you really, really want mutas Council tech: tough call...roach/hydra is great against heavy WG play, but it's hard to maneuver hydras against storm if they go HT
Personally, I find muta/ling to be a completely shit strategy against anyone good. If the toss does a good timing push right as your mutas pop, it's basically complete auto lose. You have to defend with your first wave of mutas, you lose everything, then just get overwhelmed. I haven't gone muta/ling in like 2 months because it just doesn't work against a good toss.
I would suggest doing roach/hydra/ling, which is a very stable mid-game composition in my opinion, and makes the transition into corrupter/brood lord a bit more fluid.
Muta/ling isn't that viable anymore but occasionally it can work.
The biggest factor to deciding it what to play is the map layout / positioning.
If the map is big, has a short air distance and most importantly a easy to defend choke it favors muta/ling. The reverse favors roach hydra obviously. Muta/ling is very dependant on spine crawlers to hold various timings and to be able to get muta's (which suck in battle's till they get massed). Therefore you need a large ground distance and a good choke, cross position LT and shakuras are the best muta/ling maps basically. Having far away expansions is also really important as muta/ling is an economy strat, you expo while keeping them afraid to mvoe out with muta/ling.
That is obviously the most crucial point but opposing strategies can also matter. Stargate openings are quite good against spire openings so if they go stargate you don't really want muta's. Though you can still use the spire later on usually as most P follow up air play by colossi.
Basically Z is best off going roach/hydra always UNLESS the map favors muta/ling AND you see them not going stargate. For example just sac a ovie just about when your lair tech is finishing, which is about the time P usually decides there next move (supposing they have expanded). If they 6 gate you go roach, if they got stargate you go hydra/roach and if they got robo you go muta.
Also I think it's worth mentioning that roach don't really need hydra with them. Pure roach is generally more effective then roach/hydra, it is just weaker against air. Toss can't ever really suprise you with air though as you got queens to hold of low numbers of air so you can often just wait with hydra den till you see a stargate, the hydra den builds fast anyway. Otherwise it is just better to go pure roach instead of straight up hydra/roach. The most common mistake I see zerg making agianst P, even at top level, is to go with hydra AND roach too fast. It is much better to save the cost of the hydra den for a bit and get the upgrades or an extra expansion faster. Every building costs a drone for zerg so delaying a building has a huge benefit, something people tend to forget...
On January 26 2011 15:07 Smigi wrote: Muta/Ling is no longer viable IF the protoss goes stargate, which most should be doing now a days because its very effective.
As more and more protoss figure out the strength of Stargate opennings, mutalisks will almost never be seen anymore.
I disagree. As a +2500 Diamond Zerg player, I almost exclusively play muta ling vs protoss (on larger maps), especially when I see a stargate. A few pre-emptive spore crawlers negate most harassment and once the protoss player sees he cannot kill any of my overlords, queens, or drones, the phoenix production usually stops. Even if it does not, I like to juke phoenix micro and often win the phoenix battles.
How? I have my mutas fly away and when the phoenixes follow, I immediately double back and snipe one or two. When the phoenixes start flying away, I fly away. Unless the toss has perfect micro, I usually end up killing every last phoenix. Getting +1 and +2 attack on mutas asap really helps too. Some of my favorite moments vs toss are when my muta micro beats another player's phoenix micro. ^_^
As the game progresses, however, I find that I must deal significant damage to the protoss economy, and mass upgraded blink stalker / colossus can really hurt. This is usually late game after I am at least at 4 bases. At this point, I add Ultralisks and sometimes roaches. If the protoss player is getting all cutsey with blink stalkers, a few fungal growths work wonders, and you'll already have your infestor pit on your way to your hive.
Robo/Council-Muta/ling (might wanna add some blings) Stargate/4 gate-Roach/Hydra If he's expanding early and dropping down cannons, go roach hydra. He wont be prepared for your push
I think some maps, roach/hydra just isn't smart compared to muta/ling. Chokes not only make your spinecrawler defense better in mutaling, but act against roach hydra quite badly when forcefields are involved. Lost Temple is particularly bad for roach hydra I often think; all those chokes in the middle and outside the naturals, as well as those cliffs everywhere for collosi to be able to kite easily....
Lost Temple, close positions Shakuras (with the small choke and rocks seperating your mains), and close air meta, all probably favour mutaling.
if you trust your micro to be that much better than your opponents, then sure. But if they are micro'ign their phoenix's, you WILL lose every muta and they will lose nothing. The mechanics give the advantage to the phoenix's w/ superior range and speed.
cross position on lt makes mutas extremely powerful. scrap station protoss pretty much expects muta (and these days almost never see it because of phoenix change).
EPT
