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Hetz
196 Posts
Great forum btw. I was wondering, do I need to send a scouting drone as Zerg? (in ZvT and ZvP that is) I mean, you don't get to see much you didn't already expect these first 2-3 minutes of the game. Wouldn't it be better to keep the drone mining and sac an OV at 5-7 minutes? | ||
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omnic
United States188 Posts
EDIT: It is however not 100% needed to do depending on your build though. Think about scouting like this: "Does my build get punished harshly if the enemy does ______?" if yes than you want to figure out a way to scout for that specific strategy in a way that gives you enough time to adjust your build on the fly so you are not crippled by it. | ||
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notmyday
Poland31 Posts
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
Second: For any 2 rax or 2 gate pressure you want to scout so i wouldnt do that. Against a proxy you want that scout too. + that scout give valuable information... How many gas, how many Chrono boost saved up... You can easily see a really fast 4 gate way ahead that way. | ||
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Orcanex
United States7 Posts
 Also, it lets you know if they are doing something cheesy/unusual. As in, 2 rax play from t or 2 gate pressure from p (a bit less common). Also, lets you know how much room you have to expand/drone. If p or t is going for a fast expand for heavy tech, you know that you can drone up harder and not have to worry about early pressure. Once your drone is in their base, you have 2 options, gas steal and severely hurt their early teching ability/force early pressure (if you know you are competent at dealing with it) or you can try to hide your drone somewhere in their base to scout a bit later without having to sac an overlord (save that ovie for later). Basically, scouting drone is pretty important | ||
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Azzur
Australia6259 Posts
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Ketch
Netherlands7285 Posts
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zatic
Zurich15345 Posts
If you find you feel uncomfortable not sending the drone then start sending it again. | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
The overlord would arrive to late. You also need to drone scout on 3 or 4 player maps, if you get unlucky with your overlord, you'd scout too late even vs. non-cheese. Overlord to one location, drone to other(s). I typically scout on 10. | ||
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Zedders
Canada450 Posts
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baconbits
United States419 Posts
vZ I think its pretty useless, as it will only show if they early pooled or not. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On January 24 2011 17:41 Hetz wrote: Hi folks! Great forum btw. I was wondering, do I need to send a scouting drone as Zerg? (in ZvT and ZvP that is) I mean, you don't get to see much you didn't already expect these first 2-3 minutes of the game. Wouldn't it be better to keep the drone mining and sac an OV at 5-7 minutes? A protoss player can't stop a scouting worker until their first stalker comes out. This lets you spot most early attacks or relevant buildings (forge FE, 2 gate, etc). When they finally deny your worker, pretty much the only "surprise" attack that can hit you is a 4 gate. | ||
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Bellygareth
France512 Posts
On January 24 2011 20:36 zatic wrote: If you don't know why you are sending a drone don't send it. Never do stuff just you don't understand just because others are doing it. If you find you feel uncomfortable not sending the drone then start sending it again. While this above is true, I'd rather tell you what to look for and why I myself send my drones. If you agree with me send it, if not play as you like. So: - I send an earlyish drone against T and P both (11/12 food). For T I look for : a) Gas or not, and if it appears he is teching, I'll try to steal the second gas and adapt to get an earlier lair. b) 1 rax or 2 rax. If 2 raxing I'll try to save my drone and prepare for the push (I usually fe against T so my scouting drone gets to be a spine crawler when/if he gets home). I'll pbly have to build a lot more lings than anticipated. For P I look for: a) cheese/proxy : by that time P playing standard should have a gateway down or very soon. Mb a gas. If I scout only a pylon I get very suspicious b) Forge first - look for the P scouting probe, try and deny a contain, watch for the Forge FE build (I get to drone if he's FEing) c) double gateway zealot (not really used anymore but sometimes...) d) standard opening (gateway/core) I get to try to steal the second gas (will delay dt rush/vr rush) | ||
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teh_longinator
Canada725 Posts
Usually what I do is grab their gas, which uuussssually forces marines. Then I just FE and plop down a Baneling Nest. Of course, this is usually just when I DOUBLE gas steal.... which I used to do all the time. Force marines, and go banelings Made me happy... when it worked (my buddy is on to my tricks  ) | ||
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Truffy
United States95 Posts
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Zipp
United States5 Posts
On January 24 2011 20:36 zatic wrote: If you don't know why you are sending a drone don't send it. Never do stuff just you don't understand just because others are doing it. If you find you feel uncomfortable not sending the drone then start sending it again. This. That's one of the biggest newbie mistakes is doing things because other people are doing it without understanding WHY. I drone scout every game to make sure cheese isn't incoming or something like that (example: ZvZ being able to spot a 9 pool early is critical in defending against it) I think in this case it's more "if you feel uncomfortable with the lack of information you have without scouting, you'd better get in the habit of doing it" | ||
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Dominator1370
United States111 Posts
However, if you say that there's nothing you can find that would actually be useful, it's probably a good idea to double-check what you can actually figure out. I guarantee you, there are reasons most pros Drone scout most of the time in most matchups. You should try to figure out why, which is actually a good general rule: if someone good is doing something and it's working, there's probably a reason. There might not be, and it might actually be terrible, but it doesn't hurt to try it and see if it works for you. If it doesn't, at least you've still learned something. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
ZvT: drone can spot the following openings: -2rax pressure (or all-in): drone will see 2 barracks before gas. The 2 rax may be just marines, or it could be an all-in with possible bunker + scvs will be coming, so make zerglings and put down at least 1 spine crawler at your natural. -fast reaper: drone will see nearly completed or already completed barracks, refinery completed with 3 scvs on it, and lowered scv count (< 8 scvs mining minerals). Not common, but it can still happen. if you didn't expand, get roaches before expanding. If you did expand, don't get gas, make lings + queens at both bases. -super fast tech: drone will see gas completed, or gas started before barracks. Terran will go for factory or starport tech (usually both), so get roaches + queens, with fast lair for overseer detection vs cloaked banshees. -proxy barracks: drone sees nothing in-base. put down spine in-base as soon as pool completes, get speedlings asap. ZvP: drone can spot the following openings: -forge-first: you can be almost certain the protoss player will try to pylon-seal your ramp, or put cannons behind the mineral line of your natural. put a drone on patrol at your ramp, be ready to pull drones to kill pylons/cannons. delay gas and get zerglings + queen(s) out asap. -2gate attack: drone will see 2 gates before gas, and will see chrono-boost not being used. Get roaches before expanding (or FE -> multiple spines on maps with easy-to-defend nats). -proxy 2 gate: drone sees nothing in-base. get pool immediately -> put spine crawler in main as soon as pool finishes. | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
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Sirion
131 Posts
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
On January 24 2011 17:45 Yokoblue wrote: Overlord is worth more... First Second: For any 2 rax or 2 gate pressure you want to scout so i wouldnt do that. Against a proxy you want that scout too. + that scout give valuable information... How many gas, how many Chrono boost saved up... You can easily see a really fast 4 gate way ahead that way. Hold on, though. He's asking about a drone scout. You COULD count chronos with a drone -- or you could just send a ling up the ramp (which you'll probably do anyway after the drone dies). Why not save yourself the mining time? At best, against P, a drone scout will give you a shot at seeing whether it's a normal 4-gate or a 1-gas korean 4-gate. Against 2-rax, a late drone scout makes sense. Either he's walling with both barracks or you'll generally be able to get the drone in. If you see a gas, you know it's not 2-rax. Against Z, I typically don't drone scout unless it's a small map and I'm wary of 11-overpool shenanigans. Then again, I typically 15 hatch / 15 pool ZvZ per Ret's latest coaching session with MrBitter. In fact, I tend to 15 hatch / 15 pool in every matchup if I can get away with it. I 14gas/14pool on small maps or close position Metal. Personally, I only drone scout on the maps in which it would actually make a difference in my build (I early scout the close position on Metal to see if I can 15 hatch against T & P, for example). | ||
Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
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Xeken
United States77 Posts
Against P, you need to check forge/gate, or proxy. Against Z, you should keep the drone there till you absolutely have to leave (5 seconds prior to first lings popping). You will either see what the other Z decides to do, or he will wait till you leave, which gives you a time advantage. You can come back with lings 30 seconds later to note exactly what he is doing. | ||
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faust_ix
Singapore15 Posts
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LWr
60 Posts
On January 24 2011 20:36 zatic wrote: If you don't know why you are sending a drone don't send it. I kinda disagree with that. Not missing drones/overlord/putting down your pool at exactly 200 minerals etc while micro-ing your scouting drone is a good thing to get used to since at some point you will want to be able to do that. You also get to see your opponents opening every game ; at some point you will learn and know what to look for. | ||
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Valckrie
United Kingdom533 Posts
With P, most protoss will build a zealot first which won't be able to catch the drone until the stalker/sentry pops out. Also in the rare event they proxy 2 gate you... you will know, and be more prepared than if you didn't know. | ||
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
On January 25 2011 03:39 Sheth wrote: Yes in all builds that start with a hatch first, aka ZvT mostly, sence in ZvP its kind of a mistake to go hatch first because of cannons or harass! ZvZ you generally don't need a scouting drone, (I know that last part wasn't in his question. Attempting to qualify my post in accordance to Zerg~Legend's "Appeal To The Community", I'm gonna go ahead and quote Sheth and say I agree 100%! You're extremely susceptible to cheese if you go hatch first, and the information is useful simply to make sure you're safe. Otherwise, with pool first, you'll be ready for most cheese. Someone mentioned that it's good to send a drone to see if you're in close positions in a zvp, but, I'm going to counter with one of Mr. Bitter's VOD's with EG. Machine and his solution without a drone scout: send the first ovy to the close position by ground rather than to the one by air. ZvP w/ Machine at about the 8 minute mark...he doesn't really explain it...it's glossed over...but given the context of the conversation, it's pretty easy to figure out... And personally, I rarely drone scout, myself...but then again...I really enjoy the 14 gas 14 pool... | ||
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
Sheth, it's interesting that you make it sound like you don't drone scout in ZvP. Does this mean you 14gas/14pool regardless of the map (even Shakuras)? Also, you say you don't scout in ZvZ. Is this because you get 14gas/14pool every game and scout with 'lings or are you of the same opinion as Ret and think that 15 hatching into blind roach in ZvZ should become the standard on all but the smallest maps (Steppes, close-position Metal/LT)? Finally, do you ever go 14gas/14pool when you suspect the Terran is going aggressive 2-rax (perhaps even all-in)? Thanks for the answers (if you find the time). (EDIT: Thanks Sheth -- you rock!) | ||
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aquanda
United States477 Posts
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Mystgun
Hong Kong311 Posts
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
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Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
I 14 gas 14 pool every game v p generally. I also get 14 gas 14 pool most zvz games. Nope 14 gas 14pool doens't work at all vs marine all ins. (at high levels) | ||
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Noob3rt
Canada114 Posts
Scouting at 5-7 mark gives you no information, and scouting earlier gives you the ability to detect Proxies, and possible build orders the player is going. Example: 1 Rax Expand. Example: Forge FE. | ||
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Br3ezy
United States720 Posts
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DarkRise
1644 Posts
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obsid
United States389 Posts
The latest scout is going for a pool, then scouting with zerglings (and not drones at all). This can be fine if you have a build planned which doesnt change no matter what your opponent does. A good example is a fast roach warren off 1 base, against a toss or terran (and even then your taking a chance that your opponent wont proxy, but even if he proxies you can usualy defened it if your good). Just get a quick pair of zerglings to scout while your roach warren goes up, and no matter what he goes you should be ok at least. The vast majority of builds fall between these two extreemes, usualy most people send thier drone at about 13-14 food. A good example of when to scout is when you want to go for a fast hatch, but your on metal. You can send the overlord to scout the close by air position, and if he is there, expand with no drone scout, but if he isnt, you send your drone right away and you can see if he is in close positions before you put down your hatch (and still get the hatch down on 14). | ||
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Truffy
United States95 Posts
On January 25 2011 10:52 Sheth wrote: Nope 14 gas 14pool doens't work at all vs marine all ins. (at high levels) Thank god someone good realizes this, there is a timing at which you don't have enough larvae to combat constant marine production. | ||
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
On January 25 2011 16:04 Truffy wrote: Thank god someone good realizes this, there is a timing at which you don't have enough larvae to combat constant marine production. Thats cause you are doing the 14 gas 14 pool wrong, all you silly zergs think you can follow a strict xml sheet and you'll be fine as long as you counter everything... My friend can do his version of the 14 gas 14 pool and beat any terran all in. Of course he won't come out unscratched but the terran wont have anything and he'll still have stuff counter = win. Simple as that. You guys need to stop crying that something aint working if you haven't stopped to figure out why it doesn't work. You have plenty of larva, maybe you just should of scouted and made lings or 2 spines instead of those 4 drones. | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
There is no special xml sheet to "solve" 2 rax play. It just comes down to who can micro better, just because your friend can beat you and everyone he has ever played with doesnt mean he can kill marine king's 2 rax attack. | ||
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Creegz
Canada354 Posts
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
I much preffer scouting that proxy 2 gate soon than having to mentally deal with it when the zealots are pounding on my spawning pool. | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
On January 25 2011 00:10 baconbits wrote: vZ I think its pretty useless, as it will only show if they early pooled or not. It will show you a 7pool or the like and is thus needed. Also, you cannot leave your overlord in his main due to (potential) queen, and need the drone to see his initial tech choice (banelings, roaches), and if he is perssuring or not (how many initial lings). | ||
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RainFall
United States24 Posts
I checked July Zerg's GSL games. He never drone scouted in the 5 ZvTs i checked. Idra didn't drone scout in any of the MLGs replays i watched. Neither did Liquid haypro? or the other couple zergs i checked. Dimaga didn't drone scout in a couple of the games i watched. Is drone scouting dead? | ||
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goiflin
Canada1218 Posts
On April 05 2011 00:36 RainFall wrote: Please excuse this thread necromancy, but this question has come up with someone i know. I checked July Zerg's GSL games. He never drone scouted in the 5 ZvTs i checked. Idra didn't drone scout in any of the MLGs replays i watched. Neither did Liquid haypro? or the other couple zergs i checked. Dimaga didn't drone scout in a couple of the games i watched. Is drone scouting dead? No, but unless your opponent has a history of proxy-barracks cheesing, TvZ is pretty standardized, from what I can tell, in most pro matches. The only variables that actually harm you are stuff like proxy bunkers, which most pros have adapted to, and stuff that comes after your lings/OL are at his base. I'd still scout because I don't like being proxy raxed unexpectedly, but pros play more consistently, so I can imagine that they wouldn't require the scouting drone as much as us mortals do. | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Didn't Idra and Ret both get knocked out by bunkers (and in Idra's case, proxy rax?)  I don't think it's as easy to deal with as people claim, when faced with well controlled marines and SCVs. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
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titaniumnuts
United States38 Posts
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mansnicks
Latvia120 Posts
On April 05 2011 00:36 RainFall wrote: Please excuse this thread necromancy, but this question has come up with someone i know. I checked July Zerg's GSL games. He never drone scouted in the 5 ZvTs i checked. Idra didn't drone scout in any of the MLGs replays i watched. Neither did Liquid haypro? or the other couple zergs i checked. Dimaga didn't drone scout in a couple of the games i watched. Is drone scouting dead? I dont watch often pro replays. but i have seen one idras replay. and (on xel naga (2player map) ) and he scouted with a drone at 15 food. at the time when drone reached the T base - his pool was ready and he knew if he has to drone up or build zerglings instead (or spine crawler at expand as soon as expand ready). at least that what i thought watching that replay. There was another game i remember watching lately. it was also on xel nagas - but this time it was an other player and he scouted with his drone at 13 food - he saw a gas ready and returned the drone to his base. BTW. as i have readed somewhere - overlord sacrifice (early-mid game) is only good at lower level play. at higher level - they never do a overlord sacrifice. BUT - on most maps you can go with the overlord BEHIND the terran mineral line. in this way you can easily see if and when he has 1 or 2 gases. with this information + the information from zerglings at the enemy ramp, you surerly will know what he is doing. but thats just at higher game play - when you have ALOT of experience. for me - i do scout with drone. but when - it depends on the map. mostly its just to see if he does a 2rax or not. thats the only good reason for a drone scout really. because later you have zerglings (and at the drone scout time you couldnt see anything else. fast 2 gases you can see with overlord behing minerals as i mentioned). ok this is just my thoughts from what i have readed. i want to know how far from the truth i am edit: where did you get those replays? i want them. gimme link plz./ | ||
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ThomasHobbes
United States197 Posts
ZvZ - Scout early to determine when his pool goes down, the only exception is if you spawn close-air on maps like meta (in which case your ovie will serve as early scouting), certain openings in ZvZ are auto-losses against each other, so you'll want to make sure you aren't going 15 hatch vs a 9-pool opener. Make sure to withdraw the drone before his lings or queen come out, though, and switch to lings to determine his later tech path. ZvP - You're going to want to watch for a FE, forge first, double-gate, double-gas, or a standard gate+core, in short, his entire opening. Lings and an ovie can serve that function later as you monitor his tech progression, but you're going to want to get in there early to make sure nothing weird is going down. Gas-steal if you can to deny any sort of fast-tech build and force him down a predictable, stream-lined path. ZvT - Scouting is just as useful here as well. Make sure to note whether he's going double-gas, double-rax, or anything else out of the ordinary. Try to steal his gas if you can, and sniping his scv building his rax is always a plus. Again, you're going to want to withdraw the drone or gas-steal before his first few rines come out, and you're going to have to rely on lings / ovies for later scouting. | ||
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