Scouting drone as Zerg, needed?

Hetz

196 Posts

January 24 2011 08:41 GMT

Hi folks!

Great forum btw.

I was wondering, do I need to send a scouting drone as Zerg? (in ZvT and ZvP that is)

I mean, you don't get to see much you didn't already expect these first 2-3 minutes of the game. Wouldn't it be better to keep the drone mining and sac an OV at 5-7 minutes?

omnic

United States188 Posts

January 24 2011 08:44 GMT

It depends on the build you're doing, but one of the big assets of using a drone to scout early is you're able to take one of the terrans gas then you delay any sort of banshee with cloak play for quite a bit as well as knowing where his initial few marines are on the map which means you don't have to be quite as worried about being bunker rushed (at least as long as they are attacking the gas). Scouting really helps in higher level leagues though compared to lower level leagues because the builds are more streamlined and are hurt by a late gas more than a guy thats just sort of randomly doing stuff.

EDIT: It is however not 100% needed to do depending on your build though. Think about scouting like this: "Does my build get punished harshly if the enemy does ______?" if yes than you want to figure out a way to scout for that specific strategy in a way that gives you enough time to adjust your build on the fly so you are not crippled by it.

notmyday

Poland31 Posts

January 24 2011 08:45 GMT

Zerg is the race which needs to scout ALL the time, even from te beggining is always good to scout. YOU MUST SCOUT. I offer scouting at 14, if u go fast expand take always 2 drones, if he blocks it you will be able to kill scv/probe fast, after building hatch second drone go to scout. You need to know if he goes for 2 rax pressure, 2 gateways zealot rush, zealot canonn rush etc. In later stage of the game you need to scout all the time, suicide you zerglings to know what composition of army he has to be prepared.

Yokoblue

Canada594 Posts

January 24 2011 08:45 GMT

Overlord is worth more... First

Second: For any 2 rax or 2 gate pressure you want to scout so i wouldnt do that. Against a proxy you want that scout too. + that scout give valuable information... How many gas, how many Chrono boost saved up...

You can easily see a really fast 4 gate way ahead that way.

Orcanex

United States7 Posts

January 24 2011 08:46 GMT

On 4 player maps, it lets you know what spawn they are at an adjust accordingly. For example, its pretty important to discover that you spawned close positions on meta vs p or t... And the drone scout lets you know that before youre already dead

Also, it lets you know if they are doing something cheesy/unusual. As in, 2 rax play from t or 2 gate pressure from p (a bit less common). Also, lets you know how much room you have to expand/drone. If p or t is going for a fast expand for heavy tech, you know that you can drone up harder and not have to worry about early pressure.

Once your drone is in their base, you have 2 options, gas steal and severely hurt their early teching ability/force early pressure (if you know you are competent at dealing with it) or you can try to hide your drone somewhere in their base to scout a bit later without having to sac an overlord (save that ovie for later).

Basically, scouting drone is pretty important

Azzur

Australia6253 Posts

January 24 2011 08:59 GMT

It depends. For example, if you're going to 14-hatch, drone patrol your ramp and then build a spinecrawler no matter what, then maybe you don't need to scout. However, if your opening will change depending on your opponent, then send the scout out.

Ketch

Netherlands7285 Posts

January 24 2011 09:06 GMT

I always scout at 10 before I put down my expansion at 14 or 15, I always like to see if I'm not cheesed or anything before I put my expo down, but I think its also personal opinion ofcourse.

zatic

Zurich15310 Posts

January 24 2011 11:36 GMT

If you don't know why you are sending a drone don't send it. Never do stuff just you don't understand just because others are doing it.

If you find you feel uncomfortable not sending the drone then start sending it again.

Metaspace

Austria670 Posts

January 24 2011 14:36 GMT

You need to drone scout to see bunker rushes, absence of buildings in their main (=proxy) etc.
The overlord would arrive to late.

You also need to drone scout on 3 or 4 player maps, if you get unlucky with your overlord, you'd scout too late even vs. non-cheese. Overlord to one location, drone to other(s).

I typically scout on 10.

Zedders

Canada450 Posts

January 24 2011 14:41 GMT

#10

another problem with scouting using an overlord is they can immediately know where your base is if they see your overlord coming

baconbits

United States419 Posts

January 24 2011 15:10 GMT

#11

vPT the drone scout is pretty important, unless your overlord can scout them out in close positions.

vZ I think its pretty useless, as it will only show if they early pooled or not.

Offhand

United States1869 Posts

January 24 2011 15:15 GMT

#12

On January 24 2011 17:41 Hetz wrote:
Hi folks!

Great forum btw.

I was wondering, do I need to send a scouting drone as Zerg? (in ZvT and ZvP that is)

I mean, you don't get to see much you didn't already expect these first 2-3 minutes of the game. Wouldn't it be better to keep the drone mining and sac an OV at 5-7 minutes?

A protoss player can't stop a scouting worker until their first stalker comes out. This lets you spot most early attacks or relevant buildings (forge FE, 2 gate, etc). When they finally deny your worker, pretty much the only "surprise" attack that can hit you is a 4 gate.

Bellygareth

France512 Posts

January 24 2011 15:37 GMT

#13

On January 24 2011 20:36 zatic wrote:
If you don't know why you are sending a drone don't send it. Never do stuff just you don't understand just because others are doing it.

If you find you feel uncomfortable not sending the drone then start sending it again.

While this above is true, I'd rather tell you what to look for and why I myself send my drones.
If you agree with me send it, if not play as you like.

So:
- I send an earlyish drone against T and P both (11/12 food).
For T I look for :
a) Gas or not, and if it appears he is teching, I'll try to steal the second gas and adapt to get an earlier lair.
b) 1 rax or 2 rax. If 2 raxing I'll try to save my drone and prepare for the push (I usually fe against T so my scouting drone gets to be a spine crawler when/if he gets home). I'll pbly have to build a lot more lings than anticipated.

For P I look for:
a) cheese/proxy : by that time P playing standard should have a gateway down or very soon. Mb a gas. If I scout only a pylon I get very suspicious
b) Forge first - look for the P scouting probe, try and deny a contain, watch for the Forge FE build (I get to drone if he's FEing)
c) double gateway zealot (not really used anymore but sometimes...)
d) standard opening (gateway/core) I get to try to steal the second gas (will delay dt rush/vr rush)

teh_longinator

Canada725 Posts

January 24 2011 16:09 GMT

#14

I always open with the 10 single-extractor trick, so I use my 11th drone as a scout. I usually use it just to look for the usual... are they looking to FE? did they get gas? how many barracks/gates do they have? Spawning pool going up? Basically, cheese.

Usually what I do is grab their gas, which uuussssually forces marines. Then I just FE and plop down a Baneling Nest. Of course, this is usually just when I DOUBLE gas steal.... which I used to do all the time. Force marines, and go banelings

Made me happy... when it worked (my buddy is on to my tricks

)

Truffy

United States95 Posts

January 24 2011 16:33 GMT

#15

Usually no in my opinion, ZvZ you are just going to get killed by lings before your drone see's anything useful so you need to scout that with lings instead. As for the 6 pool, 6 pools are ridiculously easy to hold, if you want me to detail the process I use to hold 6 pools without drone scouting ask and i can. ZvP they will kill the drone before they reveal the tech path, the only thing you *might* see is them not taking a 2nd gas on 19 but I feel like the frequency of seeing that build vs the minerals lost is totally not worth it. Just sac an ovie or see if you can get lings past the walling zealot. ZvT is sort of an exception, you need to know if its a 1 rax expand, 1 rax then gas, gas before rax, or 2 rax. T has 30 openers they can use and you need to narrow that number to be safe. 2k+ master league zerg here btw.

Zipp

United States5 Posts

January 24 2011 16:39 GMT

#16

This. That's one of the biggest newbie mistakes is doing things because other people are doing it without understanding WHY. I drone scout every game to make sure cheese isn't incoming or something like that (example: ZvZ being able to spot a 9 pool early is critical in defending against it)

I think in this case it's more "if you feel uncomfortable with the lack of information you have without scouting, you'd better get in the habit of doing it"

Dominator1370

United States111 Posts

January 24 2011 16:45 GMT

#17

As said already, if you can gain information that is actually going to cause you to react, scout. If not, don't.

However, if you say that there's nothing you can find that would actually be useful, it's probably a good idea to double-check what you can actually figure out. I guarantee you, there are reasons most pros Drone scout most of the time in most matchups. You should try to figure out why, which is actually a good general rule: if someone good is doing something and it's working, there's probably a reason. There might not be, and it might actually be terrible, but it doesn't hurt to try it and see if it works for you. If it doesn't, at least you've still learned something.

BlasiuS

United States2405 Posts

January 24 2011 16:59 GMT

#18

Yes you do need to send the scouting drone.

ZvT: drone can spot the following openings:

-2rax pressure (or all-in): drone will see 2 barracks before gas. The 2 rax may be just marines, or it could be an all-in with possible bunker + scvs will be coming, so make zerglings and put down at least 1 spine crawler at your natural.

-fast reaper: drone will see nearly completed or already completed barracks, refinery completed with 3 scvs on it, and lowered scv count (< 8 scvs mining minerals). Not common, but it can still happen. if you didn't expand, get roaches before expanding. If you did expand, don't get gas, make lings + queens at both bases.

-super fast tech: drone will see gas completed, or gas started before barracks. Terran will go for factory or starport tech (usually both), so get roaches + queens, with fast lair for overseer detection vs cloaked banshees.

-proxy barracks: drone sees nothing in-base. put down spine in-base as soon as pool completes, get speedlings asap.

ZvP: drone can spot the following openings:

-forge-first: you can be almost certain the protoss player will try to pylon-seal your ramp, or put cannons behind the mineral line of your natural. put a drone on patrol at your ramp, be ready to pull drones to kill pylons/cannons. delay gas and get zerglings + queen(s) out asap.

-2gate attack: drone will see 2 gates before gas, and will see chrono-boost not being used. Get roaches before expanding (or FE -> multiple spines on maps with easy-to-defend nats).

-proxy 2 gate: drone sees nothing in-base. get pool immediately -> put spine crawler in main as soon as pool finishes.

GreEny K

Germany7312 Posts

January 24 2011 17:06 GMT

#19

Always scout, this is the same as the thread about Sjow not scouting. That is just a bad move, scouting gives you valuable information that can change the game, just a glimpse at the ramp can even tell you what kind of build he is doing based off his units and unit numbers. More scouting is better.

Sirion

131 Posts

January 24 2011 17:42 GMT

#20

Well, there is a price for scouting. You might lose the drone, and you do lose quite a bit of mining time, lets say worth 100 minerals. So sometimes it might be better to put down a spine crawler (100 mins + drone) instead of scouting with a drone. I guess it depends where your weaknesses and where your strength are, and of course on the map.

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