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On January 24 2011 17:45 Yokoblue wrote:
Overlord is worth more... First
Second: For any 2 rax or 2 gate pressure you want to scout so i wouldnt do that. Against a proxy you want that scout too. + that scout give valuable information... How many gas, how many Chrono boost saved up...
You can easily see a really fast 4 gate way ahead that way.
Hold on, though. He's asking about a drone scout. You COULD count chronos with a drone -- or you could just send a ling up the ramp (which you'll probably do anyway after the drone dies). Why not save yourself the mining time?
At best, against P, a drone scout will give you a shot at seeing whether it's a normal 4-gate or a 1-gas korean 4-gate.
Against 2-rax, a late drone scout makes sense. Either he's walling with both barracks or you'll generally be able to get the drone in. If you see a gas, you know it's not 2-rax.
Against Z, I typically don't drone scout unless it's a small map and I'm wary of 11-overpool shenanigans. Then again, I typically 15 hatch / 15 pool ZvZ per Ret's latest coaching session with MrBitter. In fact, I tend to 15 hatch / 15 pool in every matchup if I can get away with it. I 14gas/14pool on small maps or close position Metal.
Personally, I only drone scout on the maps in which it would actually make a difference in my build (I early scout the close position on Metal to see if I can 15 hatch against T & P, for example).
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United States2095 Posts
Yes in all builds that start with a hatch first, aka ZvT mostly, sence in ZvP its kind of a mistake to go hatch first because of cannons or harass! ZvZ you generally don't need a scouting drone, (I know that last part wasn't in his question.
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Against T, you need to figure out if they are going for quick pressure/expand or timing push/tech, based on the timing on the gas and the second rax, so you have to scout.
Against P, you need to check forge/gate, or proxy.
Against Z, you should keep the drone there till you absolutely have to leave (5 seconds prior to first lings popping). You will either see what the other Z decides to do, or he will wait till you leave, which gives you a time advantage. You can come back with lings 30 seconds later to note exactly what he is doing.
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Scouting vital for T and P as mentioned but I do think a drone scout is absolutely necessary for Z contrary to popular belief just to check for that early pool. If nothing else it lets you know where he is so your OL can park there till a queen pops.
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On January 24 2011 20:36 zatic wrote:
If you don't know why you are sending a drone don't send it.
I kinda disagree with that. Not missing drones/overlord/putting down your pool at exactly 200 minerals etc while micro-ing your scouting drone is a good thing to get used to since at some point you will want to be able to do that.
You also get to see your opponents opening every game ; at some point you will learn and know what to look for.
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With initial drone scouting vs T you can see if it's a 2 rax, proxy rax or some fast gas, or even take his gas to delay tech orientated builds. After his marine's out you either have to get out of his base or take the gas.
With P, most protoss will build a zealot first which won't be able to catch the drone until the stalker/sentry pops out. Also in the rare event they proxy 2 gate you... you will know, and be more prepared than if you didn't know.
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On January 25 2011 03:39 Sheth wrote:
Yes in all builds that start with a hatch first, aka ZvT mostly, sence in ZvP its kind of a mistake to go hatch first because of cannons or harass! ZvZ you generally don't need a scouting drone, (I know that last part wasn't in his question.
Attempting to qualify my post in accordance to Zerg~Legend's "Appeal To The Community", I'm gonna go ahead and quote Sheth and say I agree 100%!
You're extremely susceptible to cheese if you go hatch first, and the information is useful simply to make sure you're safe. Otherwise, with pool first, you'll be ready for most cheese.
Someone mentioned that it's good to send a drone to see if you're in close positions in a zvp, but, I'm going to counter with one of Mr. Bitter's VOD's with EG. Machine and his solution without a drone scout: send the first ovy to the close position by ground rather than to the one by air.
ZvP w/ Machine at about the 8 minute mark...he doesn't really explain it...it's glossed over...but given the context of the conversation, it's pretty easy to figure out...
And personally, I rarely drone scout, myself...but then again...I really enjoy the 14 gas 14 pool...
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Yeah, I think everybody should pretty much defer to Sheth on this one. I'd like to derail the thread a bit and ask him a couple of questions (if nobody minds) about scouting:
Sheth, it's interesting that you make it sound like you don't drone scout in ZvP. Does this mean you 14gas/14pool regardless of the map (even Shakuras)?
Also, you say you don't scout in ZvZ. Is this because you get 14gas/14pool every game and scout with 'lings or are you of the same opinion as Ret and think that 15 hatching into blind roach in ZvZ should become the standard on all but the smallest maps (Steppes, close-position Metal/LT)?
Finally, do you ever go 14gas/14pool when you suspect the Terran is going aggressive 2-rax (perhaps even all-in)?
Thanks for the answers (if you find the time). (EDIT: Thanks Sheth -- you rock!)
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Always drone scout vs t or p. If they are doing a super greedy fe build your ol won't scout it in time to react properly. U will also see if they went gas before rax or gate which allows u to drone harder and anticipate a fast tech build. I've also won a few games because I scouted that he fucked up his wall and was able to apply enough ling pressure to put me ahead. Scouting later than 10 on a 4 player map is bad IMO, because your drone will get there and see 2 rines or a sentry which is useless.
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Definitely, I play P and in PvZ a lot of zergs opt not to scout on scrap station with drone and send OL instead even at Diamond level. I generally exploit this by getting proxy 2 gate and can end the game relatively quickly with zealot cheese. A scouting overlord gets into your opponents base way too late for you to react to early pressure
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Zatic makes a great point... You don't "need" to scout, scouting is apart of peoples over all strategy. You can either have a build that requires you to know what the other person is always doing, or you can have a build that requires no info. But because zerg is such a reactive race scouting is usually crucial in getting any sort of upper hand and not losing key structures to drops/losing tons of drones to banshee harass, things you could of defended if you scouted.
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United States2095 Posts
Toxigen :
I 14 gas 14 pool every game v p generally.
I also get 14 gas 14 pool most zvz games.
Nope 14 gas 14pool doens't work at all vs marine all ins. (at high levels)
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You always scout. Regardless. I don't care who you are. If you don't scout, you deserve to lose.
Scouting at 5-7 mark gives you no information, and scouting earlier gives you the ability to detect Proxies, and possible build orders the player is going.
Example: 1 Rax Expand.
Example: Forge FE.
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i honestly only scout sometimes when i go 14 hatch, but lately ive been going just 14 pool/gas and getting fast speed/lings it really is super safe and stops the terran from being able to do anything tricky
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you need to, checking if gas was taken for terran ( 2 rax or fast banshees) and checking for save up nexus energy for protoss (4 gate or if 2nd gas was might be FE or DT)
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The question is not "if" to scout, its "when" to scout. Or in other words how much to sacrifice to scout. The earliest scout is around 11 (right after an extrancter trick), but this is very rarly needed. When sending an early scout make SURE you harras the worker building a rax, as you can almost always get him to pull an scv off to follow your drone (there by making the cost of scouting very small).
The latest scout is going for a pool, then scouting with zerglings (and not drones at all). This can be fine if you have a build planned which doesnt change no matter what your opponent does. A good example is a fast roach warren off 1 base, against a toss or terran (and even then your taking a chance that your opponent wont proxy, but even if he proxies you can usualy defened it if your good). Just get a quick pair of zerglings to scout while your roach warren goes up, and no matter what he goes you should be ok at least.
The vast majority of builds fall between these two extreemes, usualy most people send thier drone at about 13-14 food. A good example of when to scout is when you want to go for a fast hatch, but your on metal. You can send the overlord to scout the close by air position, and if he is there, expand with no drone scout, but if he isnt, you send your drone right away and you can see if he is in close positions before you put down your hatch (and still get the hatch down on 14).
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United States95 Posts
On January 25 2011 10:52 Sheth wrote:
Nope 14 gas 14pool doens't work at all vs marine all ins. (at high levels)
Thank god someone good realizes this, there is a timing at which you don't have enough larvae to combat constant marine production.
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On January 25 2011 16:04 Truffy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 10:52 Sheth wrote:
Nope 14 gas 14pool doens't work at all vs marine all ins. (at high levels) Thank god someone good realizes this, there is a timing at which you don't have enough larvae to combat constant marine production.
Thats cause you are doing the 14 gas 14 pool wrong, all you silly zergs think you can follow a strict xml sheet and you'll be fine as long as you counter everything... My friend can do his version of the 14 gas 14 pool and beat any terran all in. Of course he won't come out unscratched but the terran wont have anything and he'll still have stuff counter = win. Simple as that. You guys need to stop crying that something aint working if you haven't stopped to figure out why it doesn't work. You have plenty of larva, maybe you just should of scouted and made lings or 2 spines instead of those 4 drones.
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@Kornholi0
There is no special xml sheet to "solve" 2 rax play. It just comes down to who can micro better, just because your friend can beat you and everyone he has ever played with doesnt mean he can kill marine king's 2 rax attack.
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I still make an effort to scout with a drone, the Overlord is very slow. I can't stand how slow it is, and if you use an Overlord as a scout, you inevitably get rid of 8 supply, so it's a bit of a sacrifice since it costs 100 mineral to restore that, and sometimes it can bring your supply down at a key point where you're not 100% prepared to take that loss.
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EPT
