I've always found that the 200 workers exercise (described below) was a great way to help NEW players understand the importance of fundamentals such as using hotkeys, ctrl groups, keeping your money low and your supply cap in check...macro in general.
But at what point should a new player feel comfortable with his performance in this exercise? Is 15 minutes a good score? Does it matter what race you play?
So I thought it would be a fun idea to discover some benchmarks for this exercise and I need the help of the great community we have.
All I'm asking is that those of you who are willing to give this fun exercise a try report your best times here. Please follow this format:
Race, League(bronze, gold, etc) and Best Time(use in game clock when you hit 200/200).
That way we can let new players know how fast someone in bronze typically does this, someone in silver, in gold, etc.
Notes: Please only try the exercise twice before reporting. I would like to minimize the practice effect. I'm also expecting a ceiling effect quite early. Don't worry, I'm not planning on telling someone "If you can make this time, you should be in Diamond!!!!!!!!!1111". 200 workers uncontested =/= being able to play a real game, obviously. But it will at least let the new player know when he can move on to a more complicated exercise.
200 worker challenge rules
-The goal is to get to 200/200 supply as fast as possible. -You may only build workers (SCV, Probes or Drones), supply (supply depots, pylons or overlords) and town halls (Command Centers, Nexus or Hatch). -Do not use macro abilities (mules, queens, chronoboost) **note that the use of these abilities can be added later on as the next step to the exercise. -This exercise should be done on the map Metalopolis, as a custom game vs no AI. -Do not use gold expansions.
That's it. It is that simple. I look forward to your contributions.
Um, what they said. I'm not sure there's any point to this without using the macro abilities. I'm finding the hardest thing to work into my play is never forgetting to inject.
I don't understand the point of this, anyone can build workers and pylons if it's all they have to concentrate on. It's doing this along with 20 other things which is hard.
And how on earth is this improving their control group usage?
Not using macro abilities: Yes obviously these abilities are extremely important but like many other abilities in the game, I believe they need to be learned sequentially so as to not overload the brain of the new player in the initial muscle memory learning process. Definately, once the no macro ability version of this exercise is mastered, the next step is to do it with the macro abilities.
i think the idea behind this is decent, except for the no macro abilities part.. completely defeats the purpose doesn't it?
edit: okay so we posted at the same time. i still don't quite agree, why would you want to learn the macro mechanics separately when they're such an important part of macro? i mean, they're called macro mechanics for goodness' sake.
anyway it's past 5am here so i better get to bed. maybe if i remember about this tomorrow i will give it a try!
On January 14 2011 05:53 REM.ca wrote: I've always found that the 200 workers exercise (described below) was a great way to help NEW players understand the importance of fundamentals such as using hotkeys, ctrl groups, keeping your money low and your supply cap in check...macro in general.
But at what point should a new player feel comfortable with his performance in this exercise? Is 15 minutes a good score? Does it matter what race you play?
So I thought it would be a fun idea to discover some benchmarks for this exercise and I need the help of the great community we have.
All I'm asking is that those of you who are willing to give this fun exercise a try report your best times here. Please follow this format:
Race, League(bronze, gold, etc) and Best Time(use in game clock when you hit 200/200).
That way we can let new players know how fast someone in bronze typically does this, someone in silver, in gold, etc.
Notes: Please only try the exercise twice before reporting. I would like to minimize the practice effect. I'm also expecting a ceiling effect quite early. Don't worry, I'm not planning on telling someone "If you can make this time, you should be in Diamond!!!!!!!!!1111". 200 workers uncontested =/= being able to play a real game, obviously. But it will at least let the new player know when he can move on to a more complicated exercise.
200 worker challenge rules
-The goal is to get to 200/200 supply as fast as possible. -You may only build workers (SCV, Probes or Drones), supply (supply depots, pylons or overlords) and town halls (Command Centers, Nexus or Hatch). -Do not use macro abilities (mules, queens, chronoboost) **note that the use of these abilities can be added later on as the next step to the exercise. -This exercise should be done on the map Metalopolis, as a custom game vs no AI. -Do not use gold expansions.
That's it. It is that simple. I look forward to your contributions.
On January 14 2011 06:08 FenneK wrote: I don't understand the point of this, anyone can build workers and pylons if it's all they have to concentrate on. It's doing this along with 20 other things which is hard.
The points are enumerated at the start of the OP. This exercise helps develop muscle memory for such things as worker production timing, supply building timing as well as an understanding of the importance of these fundamentals because even though the rules of the exercise are simple, the nuances for the fastest way to achieve 200/200 can be quite subtle.
On January 14 2011 06:08 FenneK wrote: I don't understand the point of this, anyone can build workers and pylons if it's all they have to concentrate on. It's doing this along with 20 other things which is hard.
And how on earth is this improving their control group usage?
Pointless thread.
Try doing it first go without going over 500 minerals and no queuing :D Once you hit 140 food it gets tough
On January 14 2011 06:09 pppppppppp wrote: i still don't quite agree, why would you want to learn the macro mechanics separately when they're such an important part of macro?
Yes and no. Kinda depends on the race.
Terran: Mule timing is independant of scv build timing. Since one of the goals of this exercise is to get an intrinsic muscle memory feel for the timing of building SCVs, it is actually better to learn the SCV build timing seperately from the mule timing.
Protoss: Absolutely chronoboost changes probe timing. However, you're not always chronoboosting probes and so it's also important to develop instrinsic timing for normal probe building.
Zerg: Admitedly, Zerg works completely differently. Timing is much more a matter of game sense and overall strategy. They can't always be building drones and therefore there is no intrinsic timing to figure out. For this race, the 200 worker exercise is more a practice of keeping supply cap in check and minerals low.
On January 14 2011 06:22 snazbaz wrote: How do you start a custom game with no AI without it saying you've won immediately?
You can keep playing after the Victory message. Although I'll admit I'm not sure if the game clock keeps going. I got this idea and wrote it up from work while reading about stats/getting bored.
Sweet idea. Although usually what stops me from making scvs throughout the whole game are times when I'm dealing with harass, attacking (sometimes), or scared by a containment in which case I need to force myself not to forget to macro. But hopefully something like this ingrains the process of worker making a fair bit more.
This is a decent exercise for newcomers to the game. I think some of you are overestimating the newcomers ability to do this exercise. And it does certainly reinforce the usage of basic hotkeys, which is great for muscle memory and starting newcomers into the habit of relying on hotkeys.
On January 14 2011 06:38 antz0r wrote: usually what stops me from making scvs throughout the whole game are times when I'm dealing with harass, attacking (sometimes), or scared by a containment in which case I need to force myself not to forget to macro.
You're not the only one
I never said this was the only exercise any one ever had to do to become pro. I think I was quite clear that this is an exercise for new players with very specific fundamental goals.
Not that repetitive practice isn't valid at the higher levels (making sure to attribute as many tasks to muscle memory as possible rather than conscious thought really frees up your mind for smarter play), but at that point, it's obviously better to practice more than just worker production
As Zerg It is easier, i just did it in 11.45 with 5 bases, 19 hatcheries. Terran will not be able to do as well as Zerg or Protoss becasue of the fact they they build structures manually. Protoss have the benefit of warping in and zerg have the benefit of making multiple drones at a time and cheap hatcheries.
I like the idea but I think it's a bit pointless without using the macro abilities. It just doesn't equate to any real game practice if you're not constantly using mules, spawning larvae, or chrono-boosting workers.
"yo dawg i put a silly restriction in your macro so you cant macro while you macro"
A bit harsh, but that's the general idea I got when I read this thread. It doesn't make any sense to limit macro-ing abilities, especially since you're looking for the FASTEST times possible. Also, why do you restrict gold expos?
13:12 as a bronze toss. I realized too late that I should have continued to build nexus after I took all the non gold minerals, and as such would probably do about a minute better if I were to repeat the experiment.
I'm looking at SCBuildOrder right now to see what the fastest possible times would be. A lot of you would be really suprised by these build orders I think. Especially with regards to macro abilities.
Queuing: You should know that queuing is bad. If Terran or Toss queue their workers it is going to delay their town halls and supplies. Also, queing doesn't occupy supply so you won't hit 200/200 any quicker.
No golds: Just an arbritary decision to standardize reports.
This is not so much a test of skill but rather a test of knowing the most effecient timings to add expansions. Since practical expansion timing is based on so much more than just choosing the exact moment that it provides greatest population growth while cutting the least income, I honestly can't see the value of this execise unless you find it fun to just drone hard for 10 minutes.
On January 14 2011 11:02 Dhurn wrote: This is not so much a test of skill but rather a test of knowing the most effecient timings to add expansions. Since practical expansion timing is based on so much more than just choosing the exact moment that it provides greatest population growth while cutting the least income, I honestly can't see the value of this execise unless you find it fun to just drone hard for 10 minutes.
Let me specify ONCE AGAIN that this exercise has value especially, if not uniquely, to very new players. Players who don't use hotkeys, who queue their units, who get supply blocked, who forget to build workers.
Those are fundamental problems that are resolved through development of automatisms/muscle memory which can only be obtained through repetitive practice.
This excercise is a fun way to practice these things without overloading the mind with other conscious decisions like build orders, expansion timings, unit counters, etc. It also helps to understand WHY getting supply blocked, banking minerals, etc can slow you down. Since the exercise is simple, it clears the mind to be able to observe and analyze these things.
I hate resorting to metaphors but what the hell, let's do a sports comparison: when you want to get better at a sport that uses a vast array of skills, you do so by practicing these skills individually and repetitively. You don't play a real baseball game every practice, instead, you do drills to work on your throwing, your catching, your hitting, etc.
On January 14 2011 06:22 kob112358 wrote: diamond zerg, did it in 11:54. after which i took my drones/queens and rolled the very easy computer did it on metalopolis
But if you took your queens and rolled the enemy you didnt have 200 supply worth of drones. Remember queen larva injection was not meant to be used.
took me 12:08 as terran on my first try. 20 CCs, 1 supply depot. not including queued units. diamond, i normally play protoss. i only took 4 mining bases, if i stopped at 16 CCs and took a fifth/sixth mining base I could probably improve my time.
On January 14 2011 11:02 Dhurn wrote: This is not so much a test of skill but rather a test of knowing the most effecient timings to add expansions. Since practical expansion timing is based on so much more than just choosing the exact moment that it provides greatest population growth while cutting the least income, I honestly can't see the value of this execise unless you find it fun to just drone hard for 10 minutes.
Let me specify ONCE AGAIN that this exercise has value especially, if not uniquely, to very new players. Players who don't use hotkeys, who queue their units, who get supply blocked, who forget to build workers.
Those are fundamental problems that are resolved through development of automatisms/muscle memory which can only be obtained through repetitive practice.
This excercise is a fun way to practice these things without overloading the mind with other conscious decisions like build orders, expansion timings, unit counters, etc. It also helps to understand WHY getting supply blocked, banking minerals, etc can slow you down. Since the exercise is simple, it clears the mind to be able to observe and analyze these things.
I hate resorting to metaphors but what the hell, let's do a sports comparison: when you want to get better at a sport that uses a vast array of skills, you do so by practicing these skills individually and repetitively. You don't play a real baseball game every practice, instead, you do drills to work on your throwing, your catching, your hitting, etc.
I see your point. Admittedly it could be useful for someone very new who is just learning hotkeys and game mechanics. I guess I just view SC2 as something that needs to be learned as a complete game. Simply because even if you can achieve a near perfect time on this challenge it doesn't really matter if you have 2k minerals banked in a real game because you're dealing with 2 hellions in your natural.
This actually sounds like a very interesting and useful exercise, or it did until I read this:
On January 14 2011 05:53 REM.ca wrote: -Do not use macro abilities (mules, queens, chronoboost) **note that the use of these abilities can be added later on as the next step to the exercise.
Why? The only purpose of this activity would be to enforce hotkey and other muscle movements. WHY would you want to reinforce straight up bad play?
That rule makes this exercise completely meaningless and worthless in my eyes. I'm not trying to be a douche, but what is the point? It will actually be extremely detrimental to one's learning to practice without using mechanics!
In the context of making workers (for Protoss and Zerg anyway), people need to use the mechanics and develop the muscle memory for them, especially new players! You're never going to make workers without those mechanics, so why should you start out by practicing it without them?
Without the macro mechanics, it is literally a completely different game and I don't think it has any value whatsoever to StarCraft 2. It's like making a custom map and rebalancing all of the stats on the units, and then trying to get a feel for what units are good against what. It's a different game, a different way of doing things, and it no longer holds any bearing whatsoever on the actual game.
Personally, I would be quite afraid to do this activity and report any results. I would feel like I was moving backwards, and the "practice" would actually set me back a TON.
On January 14 2011 05:53 REM.ca wrote: -Do not use macro abilities (mules, queens, chronoboost) **note that the use of these abilities can be added later on as the next step to the exercise.
Why? The only purpose of this activity would be to enforce hotkey and other muscle movements. WHY would you want to reinforce straight up bad play?
That rule makes this exercise completely meaningless and worthless in my eyes. I'm not trying to be a douche, but what is the point? It will actually be extremely detrimental to one's learning to practice without using mechanics! People need to use the mechanics and develop the muscle memory for them, especially new players!
Without the macro mechanics, it is literally a completely different game and I don't think it has any value whatsoever to StarCraft 2. It's like making a custom map and rebalancing all of the stats on the units, and then trying to get a feel for what units are good against what. It's a different game, a different way of doing things, and it no longer holds any bearing whatsoever on the actual game.
Personally, I would be quite afraid to do this activity and report any results. I would feel like I was moving backwards, and the "practice" would actually set me back a TON.
My 2¢
i completely agree with this. its a nice challenge, but besides that it doesnt serve any purpose, let alone improve your overall macro abilities...
if u are a new player and trying to improve your game, just skip this, because its just a waste of time...
On January 14 2011 06:22 kob112358 wrote: diamond zerg, did it in 11:54. after which i took my drones/queens and rolled the very easy computer did it on metalopolis
Diamond/IM SO FUCKING AWESOME AT THIS GAME level players seem to have forgotten what it's like to struggle with the basic mechanics involved with playing this game. Half of you guys act like everyone to ever touch the game has played an RTS before. Hell I played SC1 back in 02/03 and I am having the hardest time continually building probes in all of my games and I've had prior experience. Granted, said prior experience was a different style of play (fastest possible/BGH) but the basic idea of the game is still there. But, think of all the people who bought the game because of the awesome cinematic Blizzard put on the television that have never played an RTS before. Then, make the connection that an exercise like this doesn't do anything but help reinforce the idea of always remembering to check your nexus and make sure there's a probe in production.
Part of macro is learning to constantly build workers (no matter to particular style of the race). So, even without using the "macro abilities" that each race is graced with, it's still a concrete exercise for new players (such as myself). Learning to continually think back to "shit, gotta build probes" isn't something that everyone naturally thinks. Some of you seem to have forgotten what it's like to struggle as a new player woth such a deeply strategic and involved game.
I already explained earlier how working on macro abilities seperately is advantageous.
Furthermore, people who can't keep their minerals down and supply cap in check really shouldn't be worrying about the macro abilites until they develop the habit of keeping their fundamentals together.
You people make it sound like I'm advocating never learning to play the full game while what I'm really doing is reminding people that this game is incredibly complex and it can help to break it down into steps.
New players constantly mention how hard and discouraging it can be to make probes, chronoboost, make pylons, build stalkers, build colossus and expand all at the same time. Well no shit. Your working memory can only handle so many items at once. New players learning the game should not be afraid to take a step back, let go of a few of those tasks and work on simply a few at a time till they become automatic enough and no longer require as much brain power.
It's basic cognitive psychology and education theory.
But we're getting off topic. This thread wasn't meant to debate the value of an exercise being used by SC players since the brood war days.
On January 14 2011 13:38 zachMEISTER wrote: Diamond/IM SO FUCKING AWESOME AT THIS GAME level players seem to have forgotten what it's like to struggle with the basic mechanics involved with playing this game. Half of you guys act like everyone to ever touch the game has played an RTS before. Hell I played SC1 back in 02/03 and I am having the hardest time continually building probes in all of my games and I've had prior experience. Granted, said prior experience was a different style of play (fastest possible/BGH) but the basic idea of the game is still there. But, think of all the people who bought the game because of the awesome cinematic Blizzard put on the television that have never played an RTS before. Then, make the connection that an exercise like this doesn't do anything but help reinforce the idea of always remembering to check your nexus and make sure there's a probe in production.
Part of macro is learning to constantly build workers (no matter to particular style of the race). So, even without using the "macro abilities" that each race is graced with, it's still a concrete exercise for new players (such as myself). Learning to continually think back to "shit, gotta build probes" isn't something that everyone naturally thinks. Some of you seem to have forgotten what it's like to struggle as a new player woth such a deeply strategic and involved game.
Yeah u you should really change your mindset if you ever want to get diamond.
When beta started i was copper, i havent played broodwar. By the end of the beta i was gold, and two months after i bought the game i was diamond. The best way to learn sc2 is to play sc2. Watch day9, watch your own replays, and play the f***ing game, and soon u'll be diamond too.
U can play sh***y games like these all day, u are just wasting your time. And whats more they are boring as hell. And not helping u a bit...
And I still wonder who are these dudes having 200+ games and still in silver...
On January 14 2011 13:38 zachMEISTER wrote: Diamond/IM SO FUCKING AWESOME AT THIS GAME level players seem to have forgotten what it's like to struggle with the basic mechanics involved with playing this game. Half of you guys act like everyone to ever touch the game has played an RTS before. Hell I played SC1 back in 02/03 and I am having the hardest time continually building probes in all of my games and I've had prior experience. Granted, said prior experience was a different style of play (fastest possible/BGH) but the basic idea of the game is still there. But, think of all the people who bought the game because of the awesome cinematic Blizzard put on the television that have never played an RTS before. Then, make the connection that an exercise like this doesn't do anything but help reinforce the idea of always remembering to check your nexus and make sure there's a probe in production.
Part of macro is learning to constantly build workers (no matter to particular style of the race). So, even without using the "macro abilities" that each race is graced with, it's still a concrete exercise for new players (such as myself). Learning to continually think back to "shit, gotta build probes" isn't something that everyone naturally thinks. Some of you seem to have forgotten what it's like to struggle as a new player woth such a deeply strategic and involved game.
Yeah u you should really change your mindset if you ever want to get diamond.
When beta started i was copper, i havent played broodwar. By the end of the beta i was gold, and two months after i bought the game i was diamond. The best way to learn sc2 is to play sc2. Watch day9, watch your own replays, and play the f***ing game, and soon u'll be diamond too.
U can play sh***y games like these all day, u are just wasting your time. And whats more they are boring as hell. And not helping u a bit...
And I still wonder who are these dudes having 200+ games and still in silver...
Wow, what a terrible post. You think Michael Jordan just played games of basketball all day? Forget shooting practice, forget hitting the gym, just play games over and over!
You could make 22 probes every game and get into diamond. Doesn't mean you'd have any kind of macro skill for games that go past one base.
On the other hand, if you can make constant workers until 3 base saturation, that'll help you in the long run. Although you'd have to use macro mechanics for it to be useful.
On January 14 2011 13:38 zachMEISTER wrote: Diamond/IM SO FUCKING AWESOME AT THIS GAME level players seem to have forgotten what it's like to struggle with the basic mechanics involved with playing this game. Half of you guys act like everyone to ever touch the game has played an RTS before. Hell I played SC1 back in 02/03 and I am having the hardest time continually building probes in all of my games and I've had prior experience. Granted, said prior experience was a different style of play (fastest possible/BGH) but the basic idea of the game is still there. But, think of all the people who bought the game because of the awesome cinematic Blizzard put on the television that have never played an RTS before. Then, make the connection that an exercise like this doesn't do anything but help reinforce the idea of always remembering to check your nexus and make sure there's a probe in production.
Part of macro is learning to constantly build workers (no matter to particular style of the race). So, even without using the "macro abilities" that each race is graced with, it's still a concrete exercise for new players (such as myself). Learning to continually think back to "shit, gotta build probes" isn't something that everyone naturally thinks. Some of you seem to have forgotten what it's like to struggle as a new player woth such a deeply strategic and involved game.
Yeah u you should really change your mindset if you ever want to get diamond.
When beta started i was copper, i havent played broodwar. By the end of the beta i was gold, and two months after i bought the game i was diamond. The best way to learn sc2 is to play sc2. Watch day9, watch your own replays, and play the f***ing game, and soon u'll be diamond too.
U can play sh***y games like these all day, u are just wasting your time. And whats more they are boring as hell. And not helping u a bit...
And I still wonder who are these dudes having 200+ games and still in silver...
Wow, what a terrible post. You think Michael Jordan just played games of basketball all day? Forget shooting practice, forget hitting the gym, just play games over and over!
lol MJ did all those boring stuff, because he get paid, u are not. Plus he had coaches telling him what to do, which u dont have.
I really have enough work to to do while at my job, and dont need to add SC2 to that list.
On January 14 2011 13:38 zachMEISTER wrote: Diamond/IM SO FUCKING AWESOME AT THIS GAME level players seem to have forgotten what it's like to struggle with the basic mechanics involved with playing this game. Half of you guys act like everyone to ever touch the game has played an RTS before. Hell I played SC1 back in 02/03 and I am having the hardest time continually building probes in all of my games and I've had prior experience. Granted, said prior experience was a different style of play (fastest possible/BGH) but the basic idea of the game is still there. But, think of all the people who bought the game because of the awesome cinematic Blizzard put on the television that have never played an RTS before. Then, make the connection that an exercise like this doesn't do anything but help reinforce the idea of always remembering to check your nexus and make sure there's a probe in production.
Part of macro is learning to constantly build workers (no matter to particular style of the race). So, even without using the "macro abilities" that each race is graced with, it's still a concrete exercise for new players (such as myself). Learning to continually think back to "shit, gotta build probes" isn't something that everyone naturally thinks. Some of you seem to have forgotten what it's like to struggle as a new player woth such a deeply strategic and involved game.
Speaking as a platinum level player, that is, a player who will still needs to refine his macro, I agree with you partly, but this exercise is not as useful as it could be. In particular, there is the fact that all you do is make probes out of nexus. It's easy to, say, hotkey all your nexus to 1 and spam E, building a pylon here and there. Even adding in Chronoboost will not make it much harder.
The real challenge, and therefore the real exercise, is constantly building workers and using macro abilities in a ladder game, when you are scouting, building your army, defending, attacking, expanding, worrying about what your opponent is doing, which is when you are distracted and mostly likely to forget about macro. That is when this exercise is useful.
My suggestion would be to try something like this: get to X workers on Y bases before Z minutes while fighting the A.I. Or simply get a friend/practice partner to spar with you. Your only worries all game long should be workers and staying alive.
Anyhow, these are the numbers I got on my try (using chronoboost): 13-ish minutes on 10 nexus.
Also, I think there should be another rule: you are not allowed to queue more than one worker at any one base, unless you're playing zerg.
On January 14 2011 13:38 zachMEISTER wrote: Diamond/IM SO FUCKING AWESOME AT THIS GAME level players seem to have forgotten what it's like to struggle with the basic mechanics involved with playing this game. Half of you guys act like everyone to ever touch the game has played an RTS before. Hell I played SC1 back in 02/03 and I am having the hardest time continually building probes in all of my games and I've had prior experience. Granted, said prior experience was a different style of play (fastest possible/BGH) but the basic idea of the game is still there. But, think of all the people who bought the game because of the awesome cinematic Blizzard put on the television that have never played an RTS before. Then, make the connection that an exercise like this doesn't do anything but help reinforce the idea of always remembering to check your nexus and make sure there's a probe in production.
Part of macro is learning to constantly build workers (no matter to particular style of the race). So, even without using the "macro abilities" that each race is graced with, it's still a concrete exercise for new players (such as myself). Learning to continually think back to "shit, gotta build probes" isn't something that everyone naturally thinks. Some of you seem to have forgotten what it's like to struggle as a new player woth such a deeply strategic and involved game.
Speaking as a platinum level player, that is, a player who will still needs to refine his macro, I agree with you partly, but this exercise is not as useful as it could be. In particular, there is the fact that all you do is make probes out of nexus. It's easy to, say, hotkey all your nexus to 1 and spam E, building a pylon here and there. Even adding in Chronoboost will not make it much harder.
The real challenge, and therefore the real exercise, is constantly building workers and using macro abilities in a ladder game, when you are scouting, building your army, defending, attacking, expanding, worrying about what your opponent is doing, which is when you are distracted and mostly likely to forget about macro. That is when this exercise is useful.
My suggestion would be to try something like this: get to X workers on Y bases before Z minutes while fighting the A.I. Or simply get a friend/practice partner to spar with you. Your only worries all game long should be workers and staying alive.
Anyhow, these are the numbers I got on my try (using chronoboost): 13-ish minutes on 10 nexus.
Also, I think there should be another rule: you are not allowed to queue more than one worker at any one base, unless you're playing zerg.
It may not be the most efficient exercise, but it's a helpful one nonetheless. I honestly prefer just jumping in the shit and struggling with making the probes, however; I know the importance of a constant stream of workers so I generally don't do TOO terrible in that aspect (considering I'm like a 75point Bronze player.) But my aim is to focus more on learning the strategic side of the game such as learning to scout, recognizing particular builds, and knowing what to do to react to particular situations. Making the probes will come with practice, especially since I remember to build them, just not a constant stream of workers. I'll also do much better when I don't play with my laptop in my lap and my mousepad on a pillow while sitting on my bed. :x
On January 14 2011 13:38 zachMEISTER wrote: Diamond/IM SO FUCKING AWESOME AT THIS GAME level players seem to have forgotten what it's like to struggle with the basic mechanics involved with playing this game. Half of you guys act like everyone to ever touch the game has played an RTS before. Hell I played SC1 back in 02/03 and I am having the hardest time continually building probes in all of my games and I've had prior http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/imageuploader/experience. Granted, said prior experience was a different style of play (fastest possible/BGH) but the basic idea of the game is still there. But, think of all the people who bought the game because of the awesome cinematic Blizzard put on the television that have never played an RTS before. Then, make the connection that an exercise like this doesn't do anything but help reinforce the idea of always remembering to check your nexus and make sure there's a probe in production.
Part of macro is learning to constantly build workers (no matter to particular style of the race). So, even without using the "macro abilities" that each race is graced with, it's still a concrete exercise for new players (such as myself). Learning to continually think back to "shit, gotta build probes" isn't something that everyone naturally thinks. Some of you seem to have forgotten what it's like to struggle as a new player woth such a deeply strategic and involved game.
Yeah u you should really change your mindset if you ever want to get diamond.
When beta started i was copper, i havent played broodwar. By the end of the beta i was gold, and two months after i bought the game i was diamond. The best way to learn sc2 is to play sc2. Watch day9, watch your own replays, and play the f***ing game, and soon u'll be diamond too.
U can play sh***y games like these all day, u are just wasting your time. And whats more they are boring as hell. And not helping u a bit...
And I still wonder who are these dudes having 200+ games and still in silver...
Wow, what a terrible post. You think Michael Jordan just played games of basketball all day? Forget shooting practice, forget hitting the gym, just play games over and over!
lol MJ did all those boring stuff, because he get paid, u are not. Plus he had coaches telling him what to do, which u dont have.
I really have enough work to to do while at my job, and dont need to add SC2 to that list.
How dare you spit in Michael Jordan's name, and MJ got his first dollar once he got into the NBA. And if you think MJ had it in the bag since he was a kid, well he got cut from his HS varsity team his junior year, he had a long way to go. I always thought the key to success in ANYTHING, was development of fundamental skills, aka in the context of SC2 the most important concept is macro which starts with constant worker production.
lol MJ did all those boring stuff, because he get paid, u are not. Plus he had coaches telling him what to do, which u dont have.
I really have enough work to to do while at my job, and dont need to add SC2 to that list.
How dare you spit in Michael Jordan's name, and MJ got his first dollar once he got into the NBA. And if you think MJ had it in the bag since he was a kid, well he got cut from his HS varsity team his junior year, he had a long way to go. I always thought the key to success in ANYTHING, was development of fundamental skills, aka in the context of SC2 the most important concept is macro which starts with constant worker production.
Damn you just owned that kid. Also, if you want to complain about how you don't want to put any effort into getting better at SC2, Teamliquid probably isn't the best place to post. I feel most the community here is always trying to get better in some way.
tbh i don't actually think that macro mechanics would help Terran much in just getting to 200 scvs, because getting an OC it would cost 3 SCVs, which mine the same rate as a mule... it would probably depend on how far away the SCV has to travel . So the test would be heavily map specific and not show much. But it would really help protoss and zerg...
Silver zerg, 12:18, second try. My first try was a little better I think but the replay didn't save right with no opponent, and the very easy AI I added to fix the issue on the second try decided to send a zealot after me at the 10 minute mark. I think I had plenty of room for improvement still as I was definitely low on hatcheries at the end.
I thought this was somewhat good idea until i read the line where it says you cant use macro abilities.
Hmm.. Doesn't that provoke bad play in the end? It's mostly about musclememory so if you do this exercisement I definitely think you should use all macroabilities you can. Managing 6 bases with queens and without queens. The difference is too huge...
It's just a macro exercise. If you don't like the way it's set up.. then change it and play it how you want.
No one is making you kids do it this exact way. It's just a framework for you to creatively expound upon. So stop bitching about things you dislike about it, and say thank you to TS for the idea.
On January 14 2011 18:35 HitStarcraft wrote: If you're gona issue a challenge you really need to be specific on the maps, cause that plays a huge roll.
Practicing Macro without using macro abilities to get "muscle memory" and timings is not the best idea in my opinion. It's like practicing to hit the ball without an actual ball, or learning to catch a football without a real football. I play Terran and part of learning macro for me was learning when the energy on my CC's was enough to call down a MULE, the timing if you will.
I like the idea of this exercise in principle, but disagree strongly on not using each races "boost" abilities (queen, chrono, OC). Learning macro without using the macro abilities just gets you in a bad habit. I don't think that knowing how to push "S", hotkey your CC's to 5, build a depot here and there, and calling down a MULE is much overload. And if it is, then you practice it. Just don't do it without using the core fundamentals of your macro abilities. Making an SCV and MULES are one and the same to me, and indeed learning the timing on OC energy becomes more and more important.
I had started using SCBuildOrder yesterday to try and figure out the fastest way for each race to get to 200 workers. I got a chance to get the Terran BO completed. Seems the best possible time for Terran is 11:15.
Zerg and Toss times were stabilized but not completed to ensure a 100% perfect BO. I had to stop the mutations because my comp was overheating (24h of running the CPU at 100% will do that I guess...). Protoss best time seemed to be stabilizing at 10:26 (this was with chronoboost since I can't tell SCBuildOrder to not use the macro abilities) and Zerg best time was stabilized at 10:58 but I gotta say I'm very skeptical about the Zerg time. BO was suggestion using only 4 hatches which is very suspicious. Completion was at 51% only so I'm guessing SCBO didn't get a chance to test the right path (even after well over 1 billion mutations).
Recap:
Terran - 11:15 Protoss - 10:26 Zerg - 10:58 (***)
I'll keep the BOs secret in case you guys want to try and discover it yourselves. You'd be suprised at the results I think.
I started to do this exercise then ended up trying to harvest and exhaust all resources on the map in the fastest time. Only did it once but it seemed like a good way to test macro and multitasking. Trying to harvest, produce units, kill units and kill buildings was interesting. Pretty fun too. Only rules I could think of were at the end you must have only 1 harvester left (no other units or structures) and less than 50 of each resource(minerals and gas).
Just something nifty. I thought Id stop lurking and contribute.
This is for the michael jordan comments a few pages back.. this is his response to Lebron James being a pussy and wanting to go play WITH other stars, instead of michael jordan working hard and wanting to play AGAINST the stars and BEAT them.... hard work is all it is..
masters zerg. 11:45. i used queens n shit tho. I accidentally got supply blocked not paying attention and expod a few too many times. had every expo on meta operational, like 7 saturated. 3k excess mins when i left.
12:04 plat zerg. Screwed up a bit. Managed to get ~20 drones stuck in a cluster of hatches, got an ovvie killed by very easy computer and had to kill a roach
Tried again. 11:50 plat zerg. Still doing some screwups like not rallying to nearest minerals. I'm sure maynarding can be done better and the timing of amount of hatcheries needed. Stocked almost 2k mins at the end. Plus some marines came so I had to pull 6 drones off to pick em. Also forgot to hotkey one hatchery for about 3-4 minutes :/
Isn't the point of this exercise to keep your money low, not get to 200 as fast as possible? I heard about this and did it on twilight fortress with no ai, and the goal is to constantly only build workers queuing no more than two at a time and building town halls as soon as you have the money for them keeping your money as low as possible. By the time you get to 200 you've just barely gotten an expo up at every expo on the massive map, and then it's actually somewhat difficult.
Platinum Zerg, 12:13. I think it may teach the wrong things though without using the macro abilities. a new player will not learn how much a hatchery can do
I'm pretty sure I can do better but I'm not willing to keep trying since I don't think i'm learning particularly useful mechanics that I would normally use in game.
I would definitely be interested in a follow up to this where we build a 200 food army as fast as possible.
On January 14 2011 06:08 FenneK wrote: I don't understand the point of this, anyone can build workers and pylons if it's all they have to concentrate on. It's doing this along with 20 other things which is hard.
The points are enumerated at the start of the OP. This exercise helps develop muscle memory for such things as worker production timing, supply building timing as well as an understanding of the importance of these fundamentals because even though the rules of the exercise are simple, the nuances for the fastest way to achieve 200/200 can be quite subtle.
Except all timings will be drastically different (for zerg especially) when you include the macro mechanic. What you are doing is teaching beginners incorrect habits and timings.
Yeah, it's a really great idea to build tons of extra hatches/ccs/nexi that you would NEVER have cause to build otherwise. That is great practice for beginners....
I can't speak for the OP, but I don't think the point is to create a real game scenario... it's to get comfortable with constantly producing a unit, constantly keeping money low, and constantly preventing supply blockage for a decent chunk of time (11~13 minutes this exercise takes). Workers are a great unit to use for this. Workers are simple in cost, don't require any tech deviation or excess production facilities and most importantly of all, they increase your income which makes the whole exercise increase in difficulty as it goes on. Sure, it isn't the hardest exercise in the world, and most players can probably handle it fine, but don't discard the exercise just because it is below your skill level. It's just a fundamental exercise, and its very simple and basic. There is nothing wrong with setting a few rules and creating a simple exercise to isolate your practice down to a few simple fundamentals. If it's personally too easy then try increasing the difficulty a bit by changing rules for yourself. Maybe try hitting 200/200 while only making probes and gateway units.
On January 16 2011 00:20 thurst0n wrote: This is for the michael jordan comments a few pages back.. this is his response to Lebron James being a pussy and wanting to go play WITH other stars, instead of michael jordan working hard and wanting to play AGAINST the stars and BEAT them.... hard work is all it is..
That isn't Michael Jordan's response to anything. It's an old commercial that someone just put together with Lebron's commercial to make it seem that way.
Terran, first time was about 17:00, best time is 13:45 after about an hour of practice - a big improvement. FWIW, I am starting out with StarCraft, not on the ladder yet, and I am finding this extremely helpful.
My stamina isn't that high yet, so it is good that the exercise is short, and I get feedback quickly. I am learning to scan my resources and the minimap regularly, and to time sending workers to the build location as I track the speed of resource acquisition to properly time dropping a building exactly when I have the resources to do it, to keep my money low. These are all fundamental skills that are becoming second nature to me. I feel like working on micro is way more interesting, but I'm a long way from the point where that will be a deciding factor. This is the work that makes you a winner when you first start: The best place to store your money is inside your buildings and units, not in the bank.
"An army marches on its stomach." - Napoleon Bonaparte
On January 14 2011 11:02 Dhurn wrote: This is not so much a test of skill but rather a test of knowing the most effecient timings to add expansions. Since practical expansion timing is based on so much more than just choosing the exact moment that it provides greatest population growth while cutting the least income, I honestly can't see the value of this execise unless you find it fun to just drone hard for 10 minutes.
Let me specify ONCE AGAIN that this exercise has value especially, if not uniquely, to very new players. Players who don't use hotkeys, who queue their units, who get supply blocked, who forget to build workers.
so, every single player who didn't win GSL last season?
A random point, related to the comment above about better Maynarding:
It has occurred to me that the typical way to Maynard (move half your mining workers as the expo goes up) is actually not the most efficient way to go. Since mineral efficiency per worker is about the same up to sixteen workers, it should be somewhat more efficient to always leave sixteen workers behind, then rally worker production from your town hall to your expansion until the expo reaches sixteen workers.
In an actual game, this probably only makes sense when Maynarding to your natural, since it's a bad idea to have a slow trickle of workers marching across the map (begging to be sniped and advertising your expansion's position), but for the purposes of this excersize, I suspect it would improve times by a bit.
well in my first try i needed 13.30mins in my second 13mins ...... but i think this isnt about league or race, its about the player finding out the best way, for example in my first try i put 1 cc at each expo, so 10 in my second i build 3 at each expo ..... this is just about finding out the best way to make tons of scv, i dont have fun doing this an i dont have that much time to find out the best way and i think zerg is very favoured in this thing
Anyone try doing this as terran with just solid CC building with no supplies (minus first supply)? Sort of like the 4 OC build but more like the 8 OC Build? If you constantly build command centers you'll never get supply blocked and you can exponentially add up units. Same for zerg but without larva injects it still takes 7 seconds per larva. It takes 25 overlords (24 without your original overlord) to get 200 supply off of one base. You get 1 extra food per hatchery you have so you can cut that down by 1 overlord if you get 6 bases (23.75 overlords to get 200 food). I was also wondering if gas was included? Because that just means you have to make 17 workers make an expo and just saturate each base with 24 workers instead of 30, making it possible to almost saturate 8 bases.
I sorta went on a tangent but this exercise doesn't seem to be beneficial, its sort of like "I got 200/200 workers" but it doesn't mean anything if I have to build structures and units to defend those structures. So what if you can get 200/200 in 10 minutes, you'll die by the 6 minute mark anyways! I'd say take the challenge but include building timings and such etc. Without building any units. So like doing your regular build without making units. Get to 200/200 with 6-7 bases and check how many structures you needed to make just to satisfy that income. Then you can benchmark, if you can get 3 bases up in under 10 minutes you can sort of just build your defense as you need it, you can either build 10 marines from 1 rax or just build 10 rax and make 10 marines.
In a similar vein to that one. It's maybe worth building an orbital still so you can use call down supplies a couple of times for free supply (if you are building a couple of depots.
- tried it twice, the game ended as soon as it started but I just returned to the game and used the timer.
13:34 got supply blocked once I had built a nexus at every expansion and didn't switch to pylons 12:51 didn't build more nexi than non-gold expansions until I was already too close to 200 food to use them.
should I try again building as many nexi as possible?
I didn't follow all the rules (I grabbed the gold and used queens), and got 12:30 as zerg. I didn't know how to create a game without an opponent so added a very easy computer in, which resulted in this screenshot
I didn't have to make anything except drones the whole game, his first attack which was also his only attack consisted of 3 zeals, that I fought off with drones and 2 queens
EPT
maybe if i remember about this tomorrow i will give it a try!
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![[image loading]](http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z310/j5bruno/170drones.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i56.tinypic.com/30vnjpc.jpg)
