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I hope to maybe do a series of these deep analysis threads because the 'strategic analysis' that I often see seems either very scatter-shot (attempting to cover MANY different units) or very limited (listing one or two strategies where the unit is best made use of).
The Zealot is the most basic unit of the Protoss army. Exploiting it's complete strengths is very difficult in the early game because it is rather slow compared to many of the early game units of the other races and even once Charge has been researched it tends to maintain a position as meat rather than damage despite it's high in-close damage out-put.
The Protoss army gets most of it's strength from unit composition rather than from numbers like the Zerg or from maneuverability and flexibility like the Terrans. In the right circumstance, they are excellent and god-like. In the wrong circumstance they can get massacred in a heartbeat.
So too with the Zealot. It will not be the Zealot that wins you the game by having it on the field. It will be the Zealot and Sentries or the Zealot and Stalkers or the Zealot and Colossus or the Zealot and High Templar...but if you notice the common thread, the Zealot is always present. You do not want to have any of those units on the field without the Zealot.
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Strengths of the Zealot
1.It costs only minerals and it's mineral to hit-point ratio is excellent. Including the single point of armor, Zealots per-cost are some of the most durable units in the game. Large numbers of them can take on withering walls of fire from even the heaviest hitters.
2.The Charge ability lets them get in close to deal their actual damage. It can also allow for the 'Zealot Noose' which is manual targeting of the Charge ability to encourage a surround. Few players make direct use of this, trusting the standard Charge A.I. to handle their surrounds. If you're not good enough to use it yet, don't bother but once you have that few extra APM in a battle, the ability to surround an opponent faster than even Speedlings is not to be sneered at. With good Sentry micro you can hammer down some truly impressive MM balls with JUST Zealots and Sentries.
3.They have low shields. Ghosts have a very limited effect on Zealots and once their shields are down, hammering down their health takes a good long while. A Sentry protecting a Zealot with Guardian Shield after the Zealot has even a single point of armor from the forge can cause an un-upgraded marine to take up to 50 shots just to kill the Zealot's health (not including shields).
4.Their Forge upgrades give them +2 damage per upgrade. One for each strike. This is most obvious when facing the Zergling, reducing the attacks necessary to kill a Zergling from three to two. The slaughter is truly impressive.
5.Concussive Shell has a limited effect on Zealots with Charge. It does slow them, but not enough to allow a significant group of Marauders to escape unscathed even with shoot-scoot micro.
6.They have a huge damage output if the enemy can't get away. The Zealot only DPS's slightly more slowly per mineral than the Zergling and it's a heckova lot more durable.
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Zealots in the early game-
Versus Zerg-
In battles with Zerg at Tier 1, you want to encourage the Zerg to build Zerglings by shooing them off their refineries and preventing them from dropping Roach warrens. A bit of 'scary' early pressure with a couple of Zealots can send Zerg players into a fit of Zergling over-production which will cripple them economically and maybe even give you the game. This works right up to the Platinum level.
If the Zerg player has managed to get their Roach Warren down, include a couple of Stalkers in your early composition but keep your Zealot count higher than your Stalker count. If the Zealots fall and the Speedlings or Roaches manage to get into direct conflict with your Stalkers, you're likely to lose them.
Keep in mind throughout a battle as Protoss, sacrifice is the name of the game. Make sure if your units must die that they die in the RIGHT ORDER. Sacrifice Stalkers to protect Sentries, sacrifice Phoenixes to protect Void-Rays, and sacrifice Zealots to protect EVERYTHING. You are gonna lose a lot of them. Don't weep for the death of the Zealots so long as they kept your heavy hitters alive.
If you didn't burn straight for High Templar you are not likely to have Charge yet. It takes a long time to research and is expensive, so don't feel bad if you don't manage to get it down by the time you want to do a 4-gate or something like it.
Versus Terran-
In the early game, Terrans tend to shoot-scoot micro to kill Zealots. However, the inclusion of one or two Stalkers in your composition makes this very difficult to do. The Marines and Marauders will automatically pound on the Zealots but without target firing the Stalkers, they will eventually fall or be forced to engage the Zealot in close and suffer heavy losses. Stalkers are fast enough to move in, get a couple shots, and follow the enemy.
Since Marauders will tend to have Concussive Shell before you manage to bring down the Charge upgrade, expect them to make use of it to slow your Zealots. This will NOT stop the Stalkers from dealing their damage and even with that upgrade, a small number of Zealots is sufficient to prevent a Terran incursion into your base while you push past the point of real vulnerability that Protoss has in the extremely early game.
If you are planning on pressuring the Terran, you will want to have more Stalkers than Zealots. If you're defending, have more Zealots than Stalkers. They will buy you more time even if they don't deal much damage because of Terran micro.
(Note, if the Terran doesn't micro. Kill him and eat his babies. Zealots are good at this kind of thing.)
Against a standard Terran wall, make use of single Zealots to run up the ramp and give you vision on the top so you can pound on the Supply Depots. It will take the Terran a bit to kill them and with a significant group of Stalkers, you can hammer down the wall and then send in the rest of your Zealots to tank damage while the Stalkers mop up.
Versus a 1/1/1 Terran wall, retreat, re-group, and build a larger army. Don't engage. You'll lose a lot of units. Keep in mind with a 1/1/1, the Terran will have a limited mobile army to start with. Zealots are still your friends here. Build plenty if he decides to move out with an early Thor or to drop your base. Spread them out a bit if he is teching Siege. It'll take 5 shots bare minimum to kill a Zealot.
Versus other Protoss-
Zealots are a tough unit to use versus other Protoss in the early game. If you're going Zealot heavy for your assault, he'll tend to go Stalker/Sentry heavy and that's all-she-wrote. You're going to lose that force if he has any kind of micro skills. Don't be afraid to pressure another Protoss with a couple of Zealots very early. Any economic setback he suffers will significantly influence him in the mid-game and in a battle against the same race all gains are important.
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Zealots In The Mid-Game
Versus Zerg-
The Zerg mid-game revolves around four primary units. The Zergling and the Mutalisk or the Roach and the Hydralisk. There's very little in between and most players will use one or the other. When fighting a Protoss, it's very easy for the Zerg to manipulate their build towards more Roaches or more Hydra's depending on the enemy composition. If they scout you going heavy Zealots, expect mass Roach. If Stalkers are your pleasure, you will find yourself facing a greater number of Hydras.
Be aware, if you manage to prevent the Zerg from scouting your force entirely, you can sweep out with an army that WILL kill him. A good Zerg will know what your force mix is more often than not but lower level Zerg will let you get away with hiding your army from them a bit.
Should the opponent go mass-Mutalisk, don't abandon the production of Zealots entirely. You will benefit from grabbing the +1 ground attack against this composition because there are likely to be a huge number of Zerglings along for the ride. If you see a Spire going down, feel free to get this upgrade along with a +1 to ground armor. Once the Zerglings are down, it leaves the Stalkers and Sentries free to deal with the Mutalisks which they do very efficiently. A transition to Phoenixes is only necessary if you've grabbed a third base.
Zealot Charge should be a primary upgrade but is less important in this match-up.
If the opponent has gone extremely heavy on the Roach/Hydra then you will want to build Colossus and Immortals towards the mid-game. To this end, Zealots are an excellent investment since they free up much needed gas. Try to keep the opponent from expanding enough to begin simultaneous production of Mutalisks and Roaches. Off four bases, Zerg can be nearly unstoppable.
Versus Terran-
Mid-game Terran builds revolve around 4 different attack strings.
Marine/Marauder/Medivac-Siege
Marine/Marauder/Ghost
Banshee/Viking (transition to Ravens) (
Marine/Marauder/Viking.
You will rarely see a mech heavy Terran build versus Protoss.
Marine/Marauder/Medivac should be easy enough to deal with using High Templar and Zealots. For the most part you will need to have scouted his Star-port. However, as soon as you have you will need to prepare to be dropped both in your base and at your expo's. The high density of units you can contain in a drop-ship makes this a constant danger. Recovering economically is very hard for Protoss so beware.
Once Siege is down, Chargelots will comprise the primary method making sure that the Siege tanks do damage to your enemies front line rather than yours. Throw the Chargelots into the meat-grinder. He's likely to do more damage to his own forces. Since it also takes so many shots to kill a Zealot, spread them out a bit and use them to break entrenched positions on the map. You won't be able to use them by themselves, but have a few in your mix to soak fire cheaply and to provide a back-guard if you have to leave suddenly.
Sentries are essential in this mix for Force-field since pinning an enemy battle group against a Forcefield can allow your Zealots to hack them down quickly.
When using High Templar, try to hit the back and center of his composition. Don't try to hammer down the units at the front with Psi-storm. Let your Zealots handle those. They do lovely DPS.
Marine/Marauder/Ghost is not easy to handle as Protoss but if you tilt your build more heavily towards the Zealot you will find yourself having more success. If you manage to scout the existence of the Academy before an actual attack happens, quickly (as quickly as possible) build up a good sized army of Zealots and a small group of Colossus.
The cost of getting Ghosts will preclude a lot of other tech the Terran could have in his force and the low shields of Zealots make them ideal candidates for EMP absorbtion. Even with a perfect EMP, if the Zealots get in close you may still destroy the Terran while your Colossus stand at range and deal their damage. Zealots are NOT SQUISHY.
Banshee/Viking/Raven is currently a nearly impossible mix to kill as Protoss. Zealots are useless against this force. Transition to Phoenix/Void Ray with an Observer ASAP and pray to the gods you are fast enough. Use all your Chrono-boost to get a massive air-force. If you hold this off, I take off my hat to you.
High Templar with an Observer for Feedback will also work pretty well versus the Banshee/Raven if your mouse accuracy is pretty good.
Marine/Marauder/Viking-Build plenty of Zealots for this match-up and transition to High Templar. Vikings don't do a damn thing to a composition heavy on the High Templar. Colossus are fantastic units but of limited usefulness due to the Viking range. If you're looking for the golden damage-output then Psi-storm is where it's at.
Versus Protoss
The Protoss mid-game tends to revolve around who can get the highest number of Colossus the fastest and to this end, Zealots are a good unit to build for meat-shields. While enemy Colossus can do significant damage to your poor Zealots, if you're smart about your placement and spread them out they can last a surprisingly long time in direct confrontations.
Protoss has the hardest time with economic damage so a good strategy is to grab 4 Zealots, stick them in the Warp Prism, then drop them on an enemy mineral line. Transform the Prism and warp in 4 more Zealots. If you manage to do hefty damage, the loss of a base worth of Probes can pretty much end a game against another Protoss. If you can do this simultaneously with an attack on their front, you can get a huge lead even if you lose the entire attacking force.
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Zealots in the Late Game
Versus Zerg
Zerg late-game bears a strong resemblance to their mid-game except for the sudden inclusion of 3 units. Infestors, Ultralisks, Corruptors and Broodlords. Broodlords will be rare versus Protoss due to their very slow speed and vulnerability to Blink Stalkers. Against Protoss, Zerg will often do their damndest to claim air-superiority towards the late-game and if they attempt this, feel free to grab total ground superiority and then make your bases into horrifying death zones with a mix of cannons, Sentries, and Stalkers. You will need fewer than you think.
If the opponent goes heavy on the Ultralisks feels free to build a few Immortals to chew them out of existance but keep a nice chunky group of Zealots along-side to keep the Ultralisks from getting into direct confrontation with the Immortals. Your late-game army against Zerg is not likely to be extremely Gate-way heavy. You'll need more air-units and a plan to harass the Zerg if you have any hope of even getting to late-game due to the Zerg propensity to mass expand.
Zealots maintain their meat-shield status but with a few upgrades to shields and armor, they can become a hellish force for Zerg to deal with in direct combat even if Zerg attempts to upgrade.
Infestors will make life a bit difficult for your Zealots with Fungal Growth, allowing many of the Zerg units to micro around your Zealot ball to kill off vulnerable heavies. Be careful when using Zealots versus Zerg not to let your entire ball get trapped by Fungal Growth and picked off with Infested Terrans.
Versus Terran
You're going to need a nice army of Zealots even into the late-game against Terran. Most Terran late-game builds against Protoss involve a gigantic MMM ball and a mixture of Ghosts with Vikings with Siege defending their main base and a slow push with Bunkers coming towards yours. The functional counters for this involve a monster army of Chargelots and High Templar backed up by some Colossus and a few Stalkers.
Do NOT neglect your ground upgrades against a Terran. They are bastards and will shoot big holes in your little Zealots if you let them.
The Zealot's place in the late-game build is primarily as a damage soak. They are not going to be your DPS units even fully upgraded because they are just not powerful enough in straight-up combat. You will need them for breaking contains however because they can be sacrificed and re-built in huge numbers and Terran should try to contain you with bunkers and Siege tanks. Throwing Chargelots into an enemy front line will be immensely disruptive.
Using Warp Prisms to move around the battlefield might sound intuitive but you'll be amazed at how many players just plain don't, even with the incredible extra speed upgrade. Make it hard for the Terran to pin you by dropping him in different places. Harass him hard with the high speed drop-ship and pull them out quick as you can. Late-game, sacrifice Gate-way units but you must disrupt Terran production however it is necessary or he will start to pull ahead and crush you by dint of sheer numbers.
Versus Protoss
The Protoss Late-game tends to involve a mass of Colossus and Void Rays. Zealots will get quickly chewed down by such a force although against the absolutely necessary Immortal/Stalker composition (one of the best ways of dealing with said Colossus/Voidray mix) you will need a few Zealots depending on how heavily the opponent has invested in Colossus.
Keep a few in each of your bases with Charge to ward off attacks from marauding Blink Stalkers. They won't kill them but they'll irritate the hell out of them and possibly cause them to have to Blink around in front of a Photon cannon which can hurt real bad. Once Carriers start coming on the field, ditch the Zealots for heavier fare.
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I hope this helped. I would imagine I've missed a considerable number of points but heck maybe I can write a book on Starcraft 2 one of these days that gets everything.
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Excellent guide on my most favorite unit in the entire game. I especially loved how you divided it so that you explained in full analysis its strengths and weaknesses in every part of the game.
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This is my favorite unit in the game as well, however your analysis is very very low level at times. Many points here are quite simply wrong and many others are misleading. If it wasn't the zealot we were talking about I would have stopped reading long before I did.
Normally I try to offer constructive criticism, however many of the failings of the post are a direct result of lack of experience and no amount of constructive criticism will rectify that. The only thing I can suggest is that you ask for some help from high level players, preferably multiple high level players, when you write something like this.
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Feel free to offer corrections. The criticism really doesn't help all that much without those. Also, feel free to write your own guide. I would love to read the input of someone who obviously has a much greater knowledge than my own. If you have additions write to me with them. I would love to collaborate.
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My comments on zealots are that they are very slow during the entire game.
They are more a "melee tower" not able to track most enemy units. Charge is a "nice to have" but lets your units still sneak over the screen. Assume in a teamgame your ally got speedlings in his base. You would send zealots for help. They sneak forever to your allies base and most of the time they arrive too late to be really helpful. The drones are dead and damage is dealt. In such a case it would be more helpful to have a proxy pylon in your allies base. In order to help pretty fast. Just as I said, they are more melee tower then units.
Zerg whine about the speed a hydra moves. The fact is that a hydra is not faster then a zealot. On creep the hydra is faster. The difference is that the zealot is your first basic unit as a protoss and you have to rely on this unit.
Charge helps not a single time if you first have to get to the opponent.
The best example for that is the map War-Zone a 2vs2 map from the ladder. Sending zealots for help is an illusion on this map. There is so much space that speedlings can run around you without triggering charge. I simply deselected this map from my mappool. Zerg might love this map because muta play is also pretty nice.
Stalker are really reliable through the whole game, and can take shortcuts with blink in the later stages of the game.
Zealots are only good in few numbers to hold the enemy in distance, like Stalkers and Marauders.
Vs Terran MMM: you need Sentries, Stalker Colossus, and better invest the minerals in Immortals then in zealots.The problem here is, they cant retreat fast and dont get a good surround on the enemy, cause they die pretty fast to heavy MMM fire. A MMM ball gets inefficient if it gets too large and the same problem exist with any melee unit group like Zealots and Speedlings. Vs a small ball you can invest in a few Zealots to catch Marauder fire, but thats pretty it.
Vs. Protoss a Stalker Sentry play negates charge play, and even big number of zealots simply fail if they cant get a surround on the enemy. If your attack with zealots, it fails cause you cant retreat vs stalker sentries. You have to let them attack and die if they can get so far.
Vs Zerg its only, only, only useful to hold speedlings (and in a very late game ultras) at a distance from your sentries, stalkers, colossus. You can harass with them at the mineral line and also let them tank in front of your army vs Sunkens.
A basic rule for creating melee units is: Only build a number of melee units where you think that you can get a surround on the enemy without wasting space. Every melee units in the second row is a useless unit.
Another rule from math is: a circle has the smallest amount of circumcircle with the largest square. Which makes any kind of multi layered balls effective. (Stalker/sentry/colossus or MMM)
Pretty sad that a basic race unit is only useful to hold the choke of your entrance vs speedlings and keep other units at a distance. A researchable movement boost would do pretty fine.
my 2 cents.
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Its just little things, but important things. For example, you made it sound like the marauders are unable to focus fire your stalker in the early game if you have a zealot out. That is simply not true. While a zealots is INCREDIBLY crucial to have out early, you only need one to support your first 4 or 5 stalkers. You replace that zealot as it dies. I don't think that part was clear enough.
As far as downright bad advice goes, do not, I repeat do not make zealots against mass roach. I've tried that for hundreds of games and I've lost more then I can remember. The idea of "If I only have stalkers, roaches will trade cost inefficiently." is good and on the right track, but with 4 range, the roaches can snipe the zealots without taking enough stalker fire to make the trade even. The fact of the matter is, this is probably the worst situation to use zealots in. On the other hand in very very small numbers like you find in the early early game roach rushes, one or two zealots is indeed handy, but only if you have more stalkers then zealots.
The zealot charge surround doesn't work against good players because no good player will leave their marauder/marine ball still long enough for your zealots to charge the back of it. Furthermore with semi-decent micro a marauder/marine stim ball will absolutely crush chargelots taking very minimal damage.
+2 damage is not nearly as useful as it sounds because its split into two attacks. This means that one armor upgrade completely negates the zealot attack upgrade. That said, its crucial for toss to maintain an attack upgrade advantage(meaning staying an upgrade ahead of your opponents armor) in both pvz and pvt. In pvz as you mentioned, +1 zealots slice and dice zerglings. But in pvt, the attack upgrade advantage is critical to allow your zealots to dps through medivac heals. Without an attack upgrade, the medivac heals fast enough to negate the zealot dps almost completely.
But these examples aren't even the tip of the iceberg as to how misguided this whole post is. This is the kind of post that makes higher level players avoid teamliquid more then they should. I think the whole post is driven by a kind of creators arrogance.
You tell me to feel free to write my own guide. I don't intend to. I'm aware that I am merely a 2800 diamond toss with only a few thousand games. That is not qualification to post a guide in my opinion, even though I am quite certain in my correctness. If I did make a post like this, I would consult top level players, players like huk and nony, players like jinro and tlo, players like idra and ret. I would see what their opinions were, and I wouldn't post their opinions as fact, I would post it as their opinions. Because I don't intend to put that kind of effort into making a quality post, I wouldn't post my own guide. Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking you here. I'm saying that I like the idea behind your post, and I hope that you really put out the effort to make it something more then a low level players opinions.
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What would qualify someone to post a guide, in your opinion? Those points you listed above sound like straightforward clarification of things I mentioned or minor expansions on themes I listed. I've seen Marauders micro around a Zealot plenty of times. I've seen TLO do it frequently to keep his early MM pressure on. That doesn't mean it's particularly easy to do.
I know you have to keep up with the damage upgrades. I mentioned that further down the guide.
I don't write for the devilishly high level players who're scratching out a few extra points on the ladder. What good would something like that be for someone who is where I was a few weeks or months ago? There will always be inaccuracies of experience and subjectivity.
I do thank you at least for being polite. Being called wrong, inexperienced, and arrogant is certainly more friendly than some of my publishers and editors have managed. Civility isn't a high priority for them. Granted, neither is accuracy.
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So basically:
1) Zealots are damage soaks.
2) They're very weak without critical mass, and very strong with critical mass.
3) charge is kind of funky and doesn't help as much as a 200/200 upgrade should...
4) They're extremely vulnerable to basic kiting techniques or walling
5) They should be supported by other units whenever possible.
6) Where else are you going to spend your minerals?
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 08 2011 18:05 FreedonNadd wrote:
My comments on zealots are that they are very slow during the entire game.
They are more a "melee tower" not able to track most enemy units. Charge is a "nice to have" but lets your units still sneak over the screen. Assume in a teamgame your ally got speedlings in his base. You would send zealots for help. They sneak forever to your allies base and most of the time they arrive too late to be really helpful. The drones are dead and damage is dealt. In such a case it would be more helpful to have a proxy pylon in your allies base. In order to help pretty fast. Just as I said, they are more melee tower then units.
Zerg whine about the speed a hydra moves. The fact is that a hydra is not faster then a zealot. On creep the hydra is faster. The difference is that the zealot is your first basic unit as a protoss and you have to rely on this unit.
Charge helps not a single time if you first have to get to the opponent.
The best example for that is the map War-Zone a 2vs2 map from the ladder. Sending zealots for help is an illusion on this map. There is so much space that speedlings can run around you without triggering charge. I simply deselected this map from my mappool. Zerg might love this map because muta play is also pretty nice.
Stalker are really reliable through the whole game, and can take shortcuts with blink in the later stages of the game.
Zealots are only good in few numbers to hold the enemy in distance, like Stalkers and Marauders.
Vs Terran MMM: you need Sentries, Stalker Colossus, and better invest the minerals in Immortals then in zealots.The problem here is, they cant retreat fast and dont get a good surround on the enemy, cause they die pretty fast to heavy MMM fire. A MMM ball gets inefficient if it gets too large and the same problem exist with any melee unit group like Zealots and Speedlings. Vs a small ball you can invest in a few Zealots to catch Marauder fire, but thats pretty it.
Vs. Protoss a Stalker Sentry play negates charge play, and even big number of zealots simply fail if they cant get a surround on the enemy. If your attack with zealots, it fails cause you cant retreat vs stalker sentries. You have to let them attack and die if they can get so far.
Vs Zerg its only, only, only useful to hold speedlings (and in a very late game ultras) at a distance from your sentries, stalkers, colossus. You can harass with them at the mineral line and also let them tank in front of your army vs Sunkens.
A basic rule for creating melee units is: Only build a number of melee units where you think that you can get a surround on the enemy without wasting space. Every melee units in the second row is a useless unit.
Another rule from math is: a circle has the smallest amount of circumcircle with the largest square. Which makes any kind of multi layered balls effective. (Stalker/sentry/colossus or MMM)
Pretty sad that a basic race unit is only useful to hold the choke of your entrance vs speedlings and keep other units at a distance. A researchable movement boost would do pretty fine.
my 2 cents.
Are you aware that upgrading charge also upgrades the zealot's normal movement speed to the same speed as a stalker, allowing them to keep up? It's not as big a difference as BW, where the zealots actually became faster than dragoons, but there is still a very significant normal walking speed boost to a zealot when you upgrade charge.
As for what my own opinion on the zealot is:
The only real key piece of information you need to know about the zealot that is included in this guide is that it is a mineral only unit. The fact that it has no gas cost is the only reason you'd really ever want to produce a zealot, because every toss unit that costs gas is better for its role than a zealot would be. If you just want anti-ling you'd be better off with archons (if they cost only minerals), if you want a damage tanker for marauder/tank you'd be better off with immortals (if they only cost minerals) if you want DPS you're better off with colossus (if they only cost minerals) or perhaps DTs and so on. However, the fact that zealots cost only minerals means they do not compete with any units that cost gas. Units that cost gas are always going to be better, but at the same time you're limited by how much gas you have and so you're generally always going to have a large amount of excess minerals left over after your gas has run out buying all the units you really want.
Therefore, the only thing a guide about zealots needs to tell me is when do I want to build zealots as opposed to other things that cost only minerals. What costs only minerals?
probes, forges, cannons, gateways, a cybernetics core, pylons.
If you can write a guide that explains exactly when it is preferable to build more zealots as opposed to more of the other mineral-only purchases you can make, you can write a guide that will have a better chance of improving someone's game imo.
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On January 08 2011 23:03 Hautamaki wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 08 2011 18:05 FreedonNadd wrote:
My comments on zealots are that they are very slow during the entire game.
They are more a "melee tower" not able to track most enemy units. Charge is a "nice to have" but lets your units still sneak over the screen. Assume in a teamgame your ally got speedlings in his base. You would send zealots for help. They sneak forever to your allies base and most of the time they arrive too late to be really helpful. The drones are dead and damage is dealt. In such a case it would be more helpful to have a proxy pylon in your allies base. In order to help pretty fast. Just as I said, they are more melee tower then units.
Zerg whine about the speed a hydra moves. The fact is that a hydra is not faster then a zealot. On creep the hydra is faster. The difference is that the zealot is your first basic unit as a protoss and you have to rely on this unit.
Charge helps not a single time if you first have to get to the opponent.
The best example for that is the map War-Zone a 2vs2 map from the ladder. Sending zealots for help is an illusion on this map. There is so much space that speedlings can run around you without triggering charge. I simply deselected this map from my mappool. Zerg might love this map because muta play is also pretty nice.
Stalker are really reliable through the whole game, and can take shortcuts with blink in the later stages of the game.
Zealots are only good in few numbers to hold the enemy in distance, like Stalkers and Marauders.
Vs Terran MMM: you need Sentries, Stalker Colossus, and better invest the minerals in Immortals then in zealots.The problem here is, they cant retreat fast and dont get a good surround on the enemy, cause they die pretty fast to heavy MMM fire. A MMM ball gets inefficient if it gets too large and the same problem exist with any melee unit group like Zealots and Speedlings. Vs a small ball you can invest in a few Zealots to catch Marauder fire, but thats pretty it.
Vs. Protoss a Stalker Sentry play negates charge play, and even big number of zealots simply fail if they cant get a surround on the enemy. If your attack with zealots, it fails cause you cant retreat vs stalker sentries. You have to let them attack and die if they can get so far.
Vs Zerg its only, only, only useful to hold speedlings (and in a very late game ultras) at a distance from your sentries, stalkers, colossus. You can harass with them at the mineral line and also let them tank in front of your army vs Sunkens.
A basic rule for creating melee units is: Only build a number of melee units where you think that you can get a surround on the enemy without wasting space. Every melee units in the second row is a useless unit.
Another rule from math is: a circle has the smallest amount of circumcircle with the largest square. Which makes any kind of multi layered balls effective. (Stalker/sentry/colossus or MMM)
Pretty sad that a basic race unit is only useful to hold the choke of your entrance vs speedlings and keep other units at a distance. A researchable movement boost would do pretty fine.
my 2 cents. Are you aware that upgrading charge also upgrades the zealot's normal movement speed to the same speed as a stalker, allowing them to keep up? It's not as big a difference as BW, where the zealots actually became faster than dragoons, but there is still a very significant normal walking speed boost to a zealot when you upgrade charge. As for what my own opinion on the zealot is: The only real key piece of information you need to know about the zealot that is included in this guide is that it is a mineral only unit. The fact that it has no gas cost is the only reason you'd really ever want to produce a zealot, because every toss unit that costs gas is better for its role than a zealot would be. If you just want anti-ling you'd be better off with archons (if they cost only minerals), if you want a damage tanker for marauder/tank you'd be better off with immortals (if they only cost minerals) if you want DPS you're better off with colossus (if they only cost minerals) or perhaps DTs and so on. However, the fact that zealots cost only minerals means they do not compete with any units that cost gas. Units that cost gas are always going to be better, but at the same time you're limited by how much gas you have and so you're generally always going to have a large amount of excess minerals left over after your gas has run out buying all the units you really want. Therefore, the only thing a guide about zealots needs to tell me is when do I want to build zealots as opposed to other things that cost only minerals. What costs only minerals? probes, forges, cannons, gateways, a cybernetics core, pylons. If you can write a guide that explains exactly when it is preferable to build more zealots as opposed to more of the other mineral-only purchases you can make, you can write a guide that will have a better chance of improving someone's game imo.
They only speed up to 2.75, so they're still slower than the stalker's 2.95.
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A charge trigger range of 6 would maybe make more sense instead of 4, cause most ranged units (stalker,marauder,hydra, tank, thor, colossus) can shoot you at this distance or more, without making the zealot imba. The research of charge is really expensive 200/200 compared to thermal lance which cost the same but outrange with 9 everything at the ground except sieged tanks and give them a great distance. so maybe 100/100 or even 150/150 would be sure a little better. Compared to stim or ling speed it should be at the same difficulty to archive. Building a tech path like twilight is already expansive while stim and ling speed are faster within reach.
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On January 08 2011 18:05 FreedonNadd wrote:
My comments on zealots are that they are very slow during the entire game.
Pretty sad that a basic race unit is only useful to hold the choke of your entrance vs speedlings and keep other units at a distance. A researchable movement boost would do pretty fine.
my 2 cents.
charge increases MS. Please have knoweldge before posting.
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On January 09 2011 02:08 FreedonNadd wrote:
A charge trigger range of 6 would maybe make more sense instead of 4, cause most ranged units (stalker,marauder,hydra, tank, thor, colossus) can shoot you at this distance or more, without making the zealot imba. The research of charge is really expensive 200/200 compared to thermal lance which cost the same but outrange with 9 everything at the ground except sieged tanks and give them a great distance. so maybe 100/100 or even 150/150 would be sure a little better. Compared to stim or ling speed it should be at the same difficulty to archive. Building a tech path like twilight is already expansive while stim and ling speed are faster within reach.
ya but then your zealots stuck behind a wall of stalkers would burn charge for no reason
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On January 09 2011 03:37 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 02:08 FreedonNadd wrote:
A charge trigger range of 6 would maybe make more sense instead of 4, cause most ranged units (stalker,marauder,hydra, tank, thor, colossus) can shoot you at this distance or more, without making the zealot imba. The research of charge is really expensive 200/200 compared to thermal lance which cost the same but outrange with 9 everything at the ground except sieged tanks and give them a great distance. so maybe 100/100 or even 150/150 would be sure a little better. Compared to stim or ling speed it should be at the same difficulty to archive. Building a tech path like twilight is already expansive while stim and ling speed are faster within reach.
ya but then your zealots stuck behind a wall of stalkers would burn charge for no reason
Yes, they shouldn't change that because you have Stalkers in front of Zealots?
Theres arguments to not change this, but this is one.
Remember that Charge increases Zealot Movement Speed to a Stalkers, so keeping your army in position will be easier. You gain the aditional boost of something equal to a blink and allowing the Zealots to start DPSing.
Zealots are the best Tier 1 units in the late, late game, as they are less weak to AoE, they clump up less when attacking and the splash hurts the enemie too. Next to that their DPS/area is pretty good, as is their Health/area.
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On January 09 2011 03:37 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 02:08 FreedonNadd wrote:
A charge trigger range of 6 would maybe make more sense instead of 4, cause most ranged units (stalker,marauder,hydra, tank, thor, colossus) can shoot you at this distance or more, without making the zealot imba. The research of charge is really expensive 200/200 compared to thermal lance which cost the same but outrange with 9 everything at the ground except sieged tanks and give them a great distance. so maybe 100/100 or even 150/150 would be sure a little better. Compared to stim or ling speed it should be at the same difficulty to archive. Building a tech path like twilight is already expansive while stim and ling speed are faster within reach.
ya but then your zealots stuck behind a wall of stalkers would burn charge for no reason
why are the zealots in the back? beacuase the stalkers have reached faster the attack point then the zealot? or because the player didnt use control groups? or because the player doesn't know they are melee?
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On January 09 2011 03:43 ToastieNL wrote:
You gain the aditional boost of something equal to a blink ..
How much is the range of blink and how far is charge ? :/ 4:8 ?
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Man, I like your analysis but like others sais, it is very low level sometimes:
Telling that zealots helps vs roaches is totally wrong.
Telling that zealots are good defending vs terran has to be justified by numbers, and for sure your zealot count should not be too high.
Let's discuss about it and make it perfect 
Well done!
2500 Diamond
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I don't think I said anywhere that you should build Zealots versus Roaches. If I did could someone point it out so I can correct it?
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This is quite a poor guide imo. It's quite lowlevel and it is full of vague sentences. Also the entire layout and buildup of the guide doesn't make much sense. Why cut it up in early, mid, lategame for example instead of by matchup?
Also there are just plenty of flaws in it. For example:
if the zerg went heavy on roach hydra you want zealots as a mineral outlet? No you want to make zero zealots if you are using stalker sentry colossus immortal. Sentries and zealots don't synergize vs roach hydra (you want to cut off parts of their army) and colossi + stalker + sentry works out fine gas wise as long as you dont lose your sentries too much. Zealots in general kind of suck against roaches as they can't focus fire and die before they even get damage in, they aren't great damage shields either as they have less hitpoints then a stalker actually. Against zerg you only want to use zealots against zerglings or in some cases as a mineral outlet but generally you want to avoid using them much.
there are many more mistakes in the guide though making it just bad overall.
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Russian Federation1132 Posts
I would like to mention the fact, that Zealots are very effective in the early game in mirror. If you have superior number of units, you can send 1 zealot per hes ranged unit to attack and with others hit the probeline. It works fine since it takes Stalker a lot of shots to kill Zealot and your enemy have to constantly micro. There were a discussion considering this topic in the thread on Korean 4-Gate all-in, but i cannot find it (Plexa wrote smth about expanding it into Liquipedia thread, but there's no such info).
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chessiecat - thanks for all the input. lots of good stuff here for a (rising) bronze level player to chew on.
peace,
gravi
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Dude, this is a beastly guide/analysis.
Great job, it's quite amazing how much we can say about just one unit in an RTS isn't it?
Thanks for sharing, will be sure to finish reading it.
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EPT
