I don't know how many folks have seen this recent tourney match between Idra and AllAboutYou:
After seeing this and realizing how difficult early marine aggression is to defend (the main-nat distance, the tight defense spot near the nat, the rush time), I have done the same three times. Each time I succeed with pretty basic drone micro in taking out all of the opponent's workers.
Does anyone have any experience with this? How would you defend this as Terran? I feel like this is just a 'secret move' that I have in my pocket against T, but it's been so effective that I wonder how many other people have tried it and what their result is.
As a followup, T often lifts up and moves to the island expo (i block the gold with a drone). At this point Z is something like 3 minutes ahead of the T, so just macro mode into mutas is really impossible to lose.
easy to defend. As soon as I see drones come up my ramp I cancel my barracks to get enough money for repair. I build my first depot at my gas.. so it does not get killed.
I just take all my SCVs and put them on autorepair and then I go fucking kill the 12 drones with my 13-14 scvs with repair. The key is not to lose SCV that are building. That breaks you.
On January 04 2011 04:49 wmd221 wrote: Your opponents are not doing this rush correctly by any means if you have more scv's than they have drones, heh
Yeah, it ends up being 12 drones in your base as the 12th scv pops. If they're not quick enough to cancel the barracks and run that SCV back, they also lose the one building the barracks (plus any scouting SCV).
On January 04 2011 04:50 JiSu wrote: On maps like these just scout and build SD early like 9 instead at 10. SD at 9 scout at 9. Make sure no dumb cheese happen
But still, what's your response? Now you have one less SCV who scouted and isn't going to be in the beginning of the fight, plus one less when they arrive for cutting SCVs for the supply depot. Even if you try to wall off your main, the drones can pick off the building SCVs and you won't have time or the cash to put up a barracks before they're in.
by watching some of PsY's casts, I think that the most effective way for T to hold this off is to remain in the mineral line and use their outer 4 scvs mining in the extreme mineral patches as a sort of wall against the drones. the scvs in the middle can simply repair the outer 4 scvs quite safely.
On January 04 2011 04:57 SirOwnsalot wrote: by watching some of PsY's casts, I think that the most effective way for T to hold this off is to remain in the mineral line and use their outer 4 scvs mining in the extreme mineral patches as a sort of wall against the drones. the scvs in the middle can simply repair the outer 4 scvs quite safely.
I've come across this, and I just mineral walk half my drones to get a full surround, and it's very effective. Even with repair, a concave tends to win, especially since Z can pull red drones out of the battle and put them back in the battle queue while they heal a bit
yea idra tried this in ladder, the T blocked off with supply depo and Idra got there realized it and rage quit >_< a build that is probably harder to pull off than a 6 pool
I do this every time I get ZvT on steppes. The one loss I have is when the terran just ran his scvs around not engaging my drones until he had a marine out, at which point he protected his marine with all his scvs and won. Alternatively if you wall off at the bottom of the ramp it's an auto win.
On January 04 2011 05:16 Saracen wrote: T can just wall off to stall until he gets the worker advantage.
If you get there at the right time, he can't afford to wall off the top of his ramp unless he put his first supply there, which is becoming less and less popular.
I'm sure T can beat this, and will have to adjust their early game to be safe against this - but I really want to spread the word of the relative effectiveness of this in order to make T's stop playing this map like Kulas where they can just macro as hard as they want from the start.
Very easy to deal with and it started from the Morrow vs Strelok game
I did a lot of practice with this with my team... All you need to do as terran is cancel your rax, continue to make scvs(Cancel Rax for repair money)... then it becomes a micro battle but not really since you will be ahead in the count... If you can try to pick off the last two drones that come in by the zerg if not shouldn't matter too much because you will still be ahead.
Once you get about 14 workers put 1 on repair and a-move when you have the concave or equal, make sure that all scvs are attacking except the one that is repairing
You can't just wall off if the Z does it right. The correct zerg way to do it is to send 1-2 drones at the right time, earlier, before the rest. You can block the wall-off location with those drones until the rest arrive (similar to how this is done when you six pool). But yeah, if the zerg doesn't do this, you can quickly wall off to buy time if you scout it.
Practiced this like 25 times with PsY. There is no hard counter. You just have to worker micro, and hope you come out ahead. The best thing to do is fight in the mineral line and have the SCVs in the back repair but the Z player can stop this by splitting drones into two groups and attacking the back and the front simultaneously.
Basically you need to avoid a straight-up confrontation. You want to get in a fight in a narrow space and auto-repair with non-attacking SCVs.
On January 04 2011 05:35 iEchoic wrote: You can't just wall off if the Z does it right. The correct zerg way to do it is to send 1-2 drones at the right time, earlier, before the rest. You can block the wall-off location with those drones until the rest arrive (similar to how this is done when you six pool). But yeah, if the zerg doesn't do this, you can quickly wall off to buy time if you scout it.
Practiced this like 25 times with PsY. There is no hard counter. You just have to worker micro, and hope you come out ahead. The best thing to do is fight in the mineral line and have the SCVs in the back repair but the Z player can stop this by splitting drones into two groups and attacking the back and the front simultaneously.
Basically you need to avoid a straight-up confrontation. You want to get in a fight in a narrow space and auto-repair with non-attacking SCVs.
Meh, this seemed pretty easy to stop the first time I encountered it in ladder, I did a quick cast of it since it only took 3 minutes.
Feel free to let me know your thoughts, I noticed my opponent sent his drones slightly earlier and left the last 2 not quite rallied as fast as they could've been, but with that positioning 2 more drones sitting in the back won't help at all so it doesn't matter, basically it seems to me just not building a rax when you scout this (should be pretty easy to see coming with an 11 scout or so, even if your opponent tries to "jook"" you as I think Slush did with some success in EG Masters), sitting in your mineral line, continuing to make scvs and having 4ish scvs on auto repair hard counters this strategy... Also not sure if him right clicking my minerals to quickly move into position might be good or bad. Final thought would be that even doing any kind of splitting drones is going to buy time for that crucial 13th scv to get out...
Upon rewatching IdrA do it, it really looks like he phased just a couple drones across to get a concave, definitely nice touch and good micro, I guess I would be curious to test it more but I definitely think Terran has the advantage with this.
On January 04 2011 05:35 iEchoic wrote: You can't just wall off if the Z does it right. The correct zerg way to do it is to send 1-2 drones at the right time, earlier, before the rest. You can block the wall-off location with those drones until the rest arrive (similar to how this is done when you six pool). But yeah, if the zerg doesn't do this, you can quickly wall off to buy time if you scout it.
Practiced this like 25 times with PsY. There is no hard counter. You just have to worker micro, and hope you come out ahead. The best thing to do is fight in the mineral line and have the SCVs in the back repair but the Z player can stop this by splitting drones into two groups and attacking the back and the front simultaneously.
Basically you need to avoid a straight-up confrontation. You want to get in a fight in a narrow space and auto-repair with non-attacking SCVs.
Meh, this seemed pretty easy to stop the first time I encountered it in ladder, I did a quick cast of it since it only took 3 minutes.
You responded well, but a lot of situational stuff made that look easier than it should be:
1) He didn't split his drones. This doesn't take any more time, you just put 4-5 drones in a ctrl group and go around and both of groups arrive at the minerals at the same time. I'm not sure about the mineral thing he did, it didn't look terrible but I'm not convinced it's as good as surrounding the mineral line.
2) He attacked on the depot side. This meant that two more drones came and did nothing because they got stuck on the depot. He never fixed them.
It's something that basically depends entirely on micro, he just didn't micro as well.
On January 04 2011 19:01 Elean wrote: I've not even tested if it is possible, but can't you just wall at the bottom of the ramp with 1 supply and 1 barracks ?
This actually makes it worse - the rax is exposing so much surface area that the drones will kill the rax very quickly, and the working scv will die while constructing if he continues to work.
The first time I saw a drone rush on this map was from PsyStarcraft, and seeing as it hasn't yet been posted here, HUSSAH!
What better way to abuse the short rush distance than to uh... Rush. Very effective on this map and always entertaining, although its completely micro based that decides who will end up on top.
Edit: Oh, and even though terran can repair themselves, keep in mind SCVs cannot repair AND attack at the same time. Therefore, if a zerg gets a good surround, they have a really good chance at winning with this strategy, although it is still possible for terran to do effective repair micro in confined spaces.
flee with all workers out of base, in the open field
put workers on queue
micro rally point and each scv created out of base to eventually meet the rest
repeat 3 times, as you'll have the minerals from racks.
A-move with all workers
as i always scout at 9 or 10, and wall vs zerg i'm feel fairly safe. when seeing hordes of drones incoming i'd pull 6 workers to block remaining 2 slot entrance, put 3 on hold, 3 on repair and work from there.
If your first supply is built at the ramp and if you scout with the scv that has built it, you could probably see the drones coming, cancel your current scv and close the wall with a second rax.
On January 04 2011 23:01 danielsan wrote: never happened to me but i'd:
cancel barracks
flee with all workers out of base, in the open field
put workers on queue
micro rally point and each scv created out of base to eventually meet the rest
repeat 3 times, as you'll have the minerals from racks.
A-move with all workers
as i always scout at 9 or 10, and wall vs zerg i'm feel fairly safe. when seeing hordes of drones incoming i'd pull 6 workers to block remaining 2 slot entrance, put 3 on hold, 3 on repair and work from there.
If he had sent his first drone earlier wont he be able to mineral walk through your blockade?
Cancel barracks, build another supply depot, keep producing scvs and stall with your own scvs for a little bit until additional scvs pop out.
They key is to not panic, don't lose the worker scv building the barracks, and usually gathering all your scvs together and a-moving into their big blob of workers works out as opposed to trying to use some really fancy micro. You should have 13-14 workers vs their 12.
Many zergs go for the supply depot at the wall and that gives you time to build more than 12 scvs, keep in mind most terrans build the barracks at 12 scvs and the drones always arrive a little bit after you start your barracks which means your equal in worker count.
There are a few things that I know terrans should think about here:
- It is sometimes possible to cancel the currently queued SCV, halt the SCV building the Barrack and use it to create another Supply Depot. Send a few SCVs to repair and you should have won. You need to send a scouting SCV after Supply Depot for this to be possible. - Autorepairing SCVs cannot fight, and repair is expensive. Using 1-3 and microing them properly will help. - There is no "simple solution", such as "Just repair!" or "Haha, just a-move and free win!", it all comes down to micro. - Do NOT let the zerg kill any single lonely scv's, such as the building one. If you see them coming you might halt and go home, or even cancel. - On the other hand, do NOT stop mining totally unless you need to. Use your judgment. Remember that drone-army can pick off a single SCV faster than you can react. - Use mineralwalking. - Pull back weak SCVs and use them to mine, repair, or attack from a different angle.
On January 04 2011 05:16 Saracen wrote: T can just wall off to stall until he gets the worker advantage.
Not on steppes unless you omnisciently cut worker production. You'll have just put your rax down and won't have the money for a supply depot.
The only way to counter this effectively on steppes is to cancel the rax, wait for your scouting worker to get back, and delay engagement as long as possible until you've converted your unspent minerals into extra workers. Only then can you safely beat the 12 drone rush.
People saying "wall off" and "juts micro your SCVs" are the people who lose when they finally see it on ladder.
On larger maps if scouted, you can definitely wall off though, but on steppes it would take quite the miss cleo to pull it off.
On January 05 2011 00:36 ReachTheSky wrote: If the terran decides to wall in at the bottom of the ramp, your totally screwed.
Now, that would probably cripple the rush. Do you know if the lower-ramp walling will change in the next patch? It's becoming so two pylons can't wall, does the same extend for SD/RAX?
On January 04 2011 23:01 danielsan wrote: never happened to me but i'd:
cancel barracks
flee with all workers out of base, in the open field
put workers on queue
micro rally point and each scv created out of base to eventually meet the rest
repeat 3 times, as you'll have the minerals from racks.
A-move with all workers
as i always scout at 9 or 10, and wall vs zerg i'm feel fairly safe. when seeing hordes of drones incoming i'd pull 6 workers to block remaining 2 slot entrance, put 3 on hold, 3 on repair and work from there.
If I saw this happening, I'd know you're not mining, and I'd stay by your CC to kill all the scv's coming out.
I'm at work now, but I'll be on later today if any Terran player wants to test this out with me.
On January 05 2011 00:36 ReachTheSky wrote: If the terran decides to wall in at the bottom of the ramp, your totally screwed.
Now, that would probably cripple the rush. Do you know if the lower-ramp walling will change in the next patch? It's becoming so two pylons can't wall, does the same extend for SD/RAX?
I believe an SD/Rax can still wall. However, someone pointed out that you could get a huge surround on the Rax with drones. I'm not sure how long it would take to kill it, but Terran could probably squeeze out an extra SCV in that time.
However, lower-ramp walling is generally really stupid against Zerg. Roaches are range 4 and Barracks are size 3, so even range 6 Marauders can't reach them if they start attacking the rax. Additionally, Lings get a much better surround on the buildings, and ranged units are forced into a choke to defend. I don't generally see T players walling the bottom of their ramp because it switches the roles - now Z gets the concave that it wants and T gets the choke.
I am 2600 Terran and I did face that twice, once in a tournament against 3200 Zerg, and once in a random custom game. After I lost against that in the tournament, I did some analysis.
I usually cancel everything that's building, split my workers into 3 groups basically. some need to mine, a couple run away out of the base, and some engange/distract the drones. Let him hit you once in a while, so that he thinks, he is doing damage. Or let him attack your command center, either way, just keep him somehow away from the choke. The goal is to get 200 + a couple of tens of minerals, and build 2 additional supply depots at the choke. If you did that right, you have basically all drones contained inside your own base. Lift your command center to your natural, start mining with those that fled, take 3 and put them on the choke and let them repair the supply depots. He is not able to break though that even with 12 drones, as you can repair faster.
By that time, it's over as the Zerg has nothing left. What the Zerg then can do is to kill his own drones to free up supply and start building drones at his main with the residual minerals. But who does that?
I hope rax cancelling becomes the standard response to this, because if it does I'm going to try sending three or four drones out to fake the rush, leaving the rest at home to mine
On January 04 2011 23:01 danielsan wrote: never happened to me but i'd:
cancel barracks
flee with all workers out of base, in the open field
put workers on queue
micro rally point and each scv created out of base to eventually meet the rest
repeat 3 times, as you'll have the minerals from racks.
A-move with all workers
as i always scout at 9 or 10, and wall vs zerg i'm feel fairly safe. when seeing hordes of drones incoming i'd pull 6 workers to block remaining 2 slot entrance, put 3 on hold, 3 on repair and work from there.
If I saw this happening, I'd know you're not mining, and I'd stay by your CC to kill all the scv's coming out.
I'm at work now, but I'll be on later today if any Terran player wants to test this out with me.
On January 05 2011 00:36 ReachTheSky wrote: If the terran decides to wall in at the bottom of the ramp, your totally screwed.
Now, that would probably cripple the rush. Do you know if the lower-ramp walling will change in the next patch? It's becoming so two pylons can't wall, does the same extend for SD/RAX?
I believe an SD/Rax can still wall. However, someone pointed out that you could get a huge surround on the Rax with drones. I'm not sure how long it would take to kill it, but Terran could probably squeeze out an extra SCV in that time.
However, lower-ramp walling is generally really stupid against Zerg. Roaches are range 4 and Barracks are size 3, so even range 6 Marauders can't reach them if they start attacking the rax. Additionally, Lings get a much better surround on the buildings, and ranged units are forced into a choke to defend. I don't generally see T players walling the bottom of their ramp because it switches the roles - now Z gets the concave that it wants and T gets the choke.
we could try this, im also curious how it works as i believe i can dodge drones surrounding cc. i think ill be at home in 4 hours or so.
On January 05 2011 01:24 Kwanny wrote: I am 2600 Terran and I did face that twice, once in a tournament against 3200 Zerg, and once in a random custom game. After I lost against that in the tournament, I did some analysis.
I usually cancel everything that's building, split my workers into 3 groups basically. some need to mine, a couple run away out of the base, and some engange/distract the drones. Let him hit you once in a while, so that he thinks, he is doing damage. Or let him attack your command center, either way, just keep him somehow away from the choke. The goal is to get 200 + a couple of tens of minerals, and build 2 additional supply depots at the choke. If you did that right, you have basically all drones contained inside your own base. Lift your command center to your natural, start mining with those that fled, take 3 and put them on the choke and let them repair the supply depots. He is not able to break though that even with 12 drones, as you can repair faster.
By that time, it's over as the Zerg has nothing left. What the Zerg then can do is to kill his own drones to free up supply and start building drones at his main with the residual minerals. But who does that?
That's really really clever! But I'm surprised that once the CC lifts off, the drones can't do enough damage to the supply depots before it lands and you start mining again. He has probably a full minute from when it lifts off to when you'd start getting minerals to repair again, and there's 3 supply depots to attack.
Also, what if he forsees this, kills enough SCVs early on that he can sneak out a single drone before you put the supply depots down, and block your CC from landing? You'd be forced to go to the island expo, and that certainly won't be enough time to get repair money.
Or. Lift off with 5 scv's, run the others away from the drones, go to either of the two rock protected expansions, and instantly start a barracks and continue to get your scv count up again.
And with those remaining scv's, keep the drones so busy they can't go back and mine. He won't have a chance in hell of taking down the rocks in time. He'll either GG, or be so far behind when you attack you will win.
On January 05 2011 01:45 coko wrote: Or. Lift off with 5 scv's, run the others away from the drones, go to either of the two rock protected expansions, and instantly start a barracks and continue to get your scv count up again.
And with those remaining scv's, keep the drones so busy they can't go back and mine. He won't have a chance in hell of taking down the rocks in time. He'll either GG, or be so far behind when you attack you will win.
How would this work? Assuming you load up your SCVs right away and fly away, you're left with 5 vs the 12 drones. How exactly are you going to stop them from going back and mining? If you engage, you'd lose all your SCVs so quickly.
Lifting off with 5 SCVs is a very easy win for Z in my experience
On January 05 2011 01:24 Kwanny wrote: I am 2600 Terran and I did face that twice, once in a tournament against 3200 Zerg, and once in a random custom game. After I lost against that in the tournament, I did some analysis.
I usually cancel everything that's building, split my workers into 3 groups basically. some need to mine, a couple run away out of the base, and some engange/distract the drones. Let him hit you once in a while, so that he thinks, he is doing damage. Or let him attack your command center, either way, just keep him somehow away from the choke. The goal is to get 200 + a couple of tens of minerals, and build 2 additional supply depots at the choke. If you did that right, you have basically all drones contained inside your own base. Lift your command center to your natural, start mining with those that fled, take 3 and put them on the choke and let them repair the supply depots. He is not able to break though that even with 12 drones, as you can repair faster.
By that time, it's over as the Zerg has nothing left. What the Zerg then can do is to kill his own drones to free up supply and start building drones at his main with the residual minerals. But who does that?
That's really really clever! But I'm surprised that once the CC lifts off, the drones can't do enough damage to the supply depots before it lands and you start mining again. He has probably a full minute from when it lifts off to when you'd start getting minerals to repair again, and there's 3 supply depots to attack.
Also, what if he forsees this, kills enough SCVs early on that he can sneak out a single drone before you put the supply depots down, and block your CC from landing? You'd be forced to go to the island expo, and that certainly won't be enough time to get repair money.
when you have 3 supply depots up, the outer ones can be attacked by 5 drones. he has max 5+2 more drohnes. you need two scv to outrepair 5 drones. So in the worst case, you would need around 3 to 4 scvs to repair, but usually 3 because scv's can change the location to repair. By the time you lift off, the wall is already done, and you could still have a max of 5 scv's inside, to keep on distracting him, and you can load them up into the cc, while it is flying. If he has a drone at your nat, you just kill it with the fleeing 4/5 scv's. The command center needs 40 game seconds to move to your nat, that is not that long. You should have around 200 minerals if you cancel everything, so that you are actually gathering minerals to repair. I posted this because I managed to pull it off.
This is another way of playing, but haven't tried it yet Not sure if it works either. gather 200 minerals, complete the wall, take all scv's you can get, and just go f*cking kill his hatch, as day9 would say.
I've defended by sending an early scout out and if I see it I pull 3 extra scvs and attack from behind with my scout, usually I can scare off the 4 harassing drones sometimes killing 1 and losing no SCVs.
On January 05 2011 01:24 Kwanny wrote: I am 2600 Terran and I did face that twice, once in a tournament against 3200 Zerg, and once in a random custom game. After I lost against that in the tournament, I did some analysis.
I usually cancel everything that's building, split my workers into 3 groups basically. some need to mine, a couple run away out of the base, and some engange/distract the drones. Let him hit you once in a while, so that he thinks, he is doing damage. Or let him attack your command center, either way, just keep him somehow away from the choke. The goal is to get 200 + a couple of tens of minerals, and build 2 additional supply depots at the choke. If you did that right, you have basically all drones contained inside your own base. Lift your command center to your natural, start mining with those that fled, take 3 and put them on the choke and let them repair the supply depots. He is not able to break though that even with 12 drones, as you can repair faster.
By that time, it's over as the Zerg has nothing left. What the Zerg then can do is to kill his own drones to free up supply and start building drones at his main with the residual minerals. But who does that?
That's really really clever! But I'm surprised that once the CC lifts off, the drones can't do enough damage to the supply depots before it lands and you start mining again. He has probably a full minute from when it lifts off to when you'd start getting minerals to repair again, and there's 3 supply depots to attack.
Also, what if he forsees this, kills enough SCVs early on that he can sneak out a single drone before you put the supply depots down, and block your CC from landing? You'd be forced to go to the island expo, and that certainly won't be enough time to get repair money.
when you have 3 supply depots up, the outer ones can be attacked by 5 drones. he has max 5+2 more drohnes. you need two scv to outrepair 5 drones. So in the worst case, you would need around 3 to 4 scvs to repair, but usually 3 because scv's can change the location to repair. By the time you lift off, the wall is already done, and you could still have a max of 5 scv's inside, to keep on distracting him, and you can load them up into the cc, while it is flying. If he has a drone at your nat, you just kill it with the fleeing 4/5 scv's. The command center needs 40 game seconds to move to your nat, that is not that long. You should have around 200 minerals if you cancel everything, so that you are actually gathering minerals to repair. I posted this because I managed to pull it off.
This is another way of playing, but haven't tried it yet Not sure if it works either. gather 200 minerals, complete the wall, take all scv's you can get, and just go f*cking kill his hatch, as day9 would say.
I'd love to test this out with you, because I had someone who tried to keep a few SCVs mining while fighting off my drones, and I could very effectively mineral walk and pick off his mining SCVs with target fire. As long as some drones are on A-move, your A-moving SCVs will not target the mineral-walking drones.
Is mineral walk being completely removed in 1.2? How does that work?
On January 05 2011 02:18 SilverPotato wrote: I've defended by sending an early scout out and if I see it I pull 3 extra scvs and attack from behind with my scout, usually I can scare off the 4 harassing drones sometimes killing 1 and losing no SCVs.
The OP is really detailed, and even includes a video. Read more than the topic title if you want to share your ideas on how to beat something.
I watching QXCs stream a week or two ago, and he was drone rushed on Steppes, and he lost. After he lost he talked about it for a little while and seemed to think that he had a good idea with putting his critically injured SCVs inside his command center since the SCVs can repair each other inside there.
I never got to see him test it out, but it sounded decent. Although, it would be hard to get the correct SCVs inside when you have all your SCVs right there.
Has the zergling really been nerfed so much that it's become more powerful to attack with drones? I miss BW. But MBS has made me weak and now I can't go back.
A lot of people have mentioned just lifting off. So why not? You can counter attack his hatch, while rebuilding your base somewhere safe. Can someone comment on this? At worst you'll just wind up even.
On January 05 2011 02:40 boblzer0 wrote: how about lift the cc and go kill his hatch with your svcs haha. if he follows you just make more svcs and mine.
i was thinking the same. just gather all ur scvs, move them around his drones and leave for his base. he has only one building, his hatch, so he has to follow u back there to prevent the scvs from killing it off, as he cant finish u with drones (lift-off is such a cool ability..)
if u didnt lose scvs until then, he has to go back with all his drones to be able to fight successfully against ur scvs and prevent them from killing him off. in the meantime u can start producing new scvs and let them mine. u can always abuse the mineral walk to get ur scvs out of ur own base and later to make them get out of his base aswell.
I never thought that I´d ever see a game where Idra wins without a pool.
Unless he switches races.
Anyways if he fights you in a narrow choke like in the video you can put the svcs in the back on auto repair and probably defense pretty easily since you should have repair + more workers.
On January 04 2011 04:50 JiSu wrote: On maps like these just scout and build SD early like 9 instead at 10. SD at 9 scout at 9. Make sure no dumb cheese happen
So your saying on steppes of war , you see your opponent building drones then that means they are going to rush you rofl? Wrong, this is a strong build its not easy to scout it either. It starts off with a typical 9 ov. into drone production. you scout it once the drones are pulled off the line.
i think the correct response is to always prepare if ur getting zerg on steppes. such as sd placement.
On January 05 2011 02:50 Danger-dog wrote: Has the zergling really been nerfed so much that it's become more powerful to attack with drones? I miss BW. But MBS has made me weak and now I can't go back.
This has more to do with the marine being buffed so much that 1 marine completely destroys 1 zergling with 0 micro, where as the zergling used to win that scenario in BW.
The power of the drone rush is that it hits before the barracks is finished.
It basically gives you a micro-intensive game where you have the opportunity to straight up out-play your opponent, which is your best opportunity on steppes in a ZvT.
A lot of small issues go into it, but this will maintain as one of the strongest Z openers on this map until something changes.
On a related note, I wonder if removal of worker floating is enough to stop this kind of thing from being effective.
How does this EVER work.. all the T has to do is cancel the rax, not engage till 1-2 more SCV's pop. And engage - retreat - hit auto repair on every SCV - re-engage. GG, done and done.
I'm sure other people have considered this, but wouldn't the strategy be completely bust if the terran just loads up the 5 scvs he can floats to the nearby expo behind the destructable rocks and continiues base operations there. Doesn't matter if starting depot is destroyed, send the remaining scvs to the zerg base to work on his hatch and make him divide drones if he wants to chase the floating command center. I don't think zerg can win if he has to chase the cc back and forth defend hatch at home and prevent the terran from mining mins........even if he can't build any structures. can't he eventually just try to hide the construction of a new command center somewhere if the zerg won't let him build a depot. I'll try the strategy myself and post soon, but I am a zerg player and don't get too many chances to play, my computer is crap and I have to borrow a friend's laptop to run sc2. It would certainly at least be hilarious to watch this strategy in action.
On January 05 2011 05:31 Meatpuppet wrote: I'm sure other people have considered this, but wouldn't the strategy be completely bust if the terran just loads up the 5 scvs he can floats to the nearby expo behind the destructable rocks and continiues base operations there. Doesn't matter if starting depot is destroyed, send the remaining scvs to the zerg base to work on his hatch and make him divide drones if he wants to chase the floating command center. I don't think zerg can win if he has to chase the cc back and forth defend hatch at home and prevent the terran from mining mins........even if he can't build any structures. can't he eventually just try to hide the construction of a new command center somewhere if the zerg won't let him build a depot. I'll try the strategy myself and post soon, but I am a zerg player and don't get too many chances to play, my computer is crap and I have to borrow a friend's laptop to run sc2. It would certainly at least be hilarious to watch this strategy in action.
In your scenario, Terran loaded 5 SCVs, leaving him with a maximum of 8 to fight against 12 Drones. Okay, so let's imagine Zerg chases the 8 SCVs with 10 Drones, and now mines with 2. Meanwhile, Terran needs to float all the way over to the new base. Zerg will undoubtably be ahead after this exchange.
Seriously, guys? I'm astounded at the amount of stupid advice in this thread.
Cancel your Barracks, wait for 3 SCVs. Forget all that dumb bullshit about auto repair and CC micro, just fight him on open ground. You will outnumber him and win.
On January 05 2011 05:38 sCFade wrote: Seriously, guys? I'm astounded at the amount of stupid advice in this thread.
Cancel your Barracks, wait for 3 SCVs. Forget all that dumb bullshit about auto repair and CC micro, just fight him on open ground. You will outnumber him and win.
If you're astounded at the amount of stupid advice, why contribute more?
It's not a simple 'you idiots, just do X'. If it were, this strategy would never work.
How do you define 'waiting' for 3 scvs? Run the SCVs around? Then a couple get picked off, as do the ones leaving your CC. Now you're behind 10 to 12 and you lose.
chill, terran won't have 8 scvs, he'll only be limited to 11 supply IF zerg destroys the supply depot. so the zerg with 12 drones, sees the cc float off with 5 scvs in it, leaving 6-7 behind, all send past the drones to the hatch at home correct. stays a few second to destroy the supply depot, and one could try to micro harrass the destruction of the depot, but i don't think that'd be a good idea with a 12 drone vs 6-7 scv. It won't take that long to reach the new cc site, so zerg takes approx 7 drones to defend home, leaving 5 to go after the cc. the timing of those 5 drones reaching the new mining site is everything, but i think the destructable rocks forcing the long detour round gives enough time to get at least one mining cycle done. that would be enough to eventually win. terran just can't allow zerg to build an overlord and continue mining himself
On January 05 2011 05:51 Meatpuppet wrote: chill, terran won't have 8 scvs, he'll only be limited to 11 supply IF zerg destroys the supply depot. so the zerg with 12 drones, sees the cc float off with 5 scvs in it, leaving 6-7 behind, all send past the drones to the hatch at home correct. stays a few second to destroy the supply depot, and one could try to micro harrass the destruction of the depot, but i don't think that'd be a good idea with a 12 drone vs 6-7 scv. It won't take that long to reach the new cc site, so zerg takes approx 7 drones to defend home, leaving 5 to go after the cc. the timing of those 5 drones reaching the new mining site is everything, but i think the destructable rocks forcing the long detour round gives enough time to get at least one mining cycle done. that would be enough to eventually win. terran just can't allow zerg to build an overlord and continue mining himself
I think you're missing the point - Z isn't going to try to immediately shutdown T's liftoff. He will make sure T has to fly far and doesn't just land immediately, kill whatever SCVs are trying to harass Z's mining, and end up resetting the game by the time T lands the CC. Except now T has 5 workers and Z has >10. It's basically like letting Z play for 2-3 minutes before the T can play - that's way too large of an advantage for T to come back. If Z is stupid and tries to break down the wall immediately, he might lose - but if Z just carefully techs to mutas on 2 bases and gets them out before T can get a factory done, it's hopeless.
Chill is right, lifting the CC = fail. All the zerg has to do is chase your remaining scvs with as many scvs as there are + 1 drones, kill the supply depot with another drone, and mine with the rest. You land your CC, you have 5 SCVs and need to build another depot to build a rax or keep producing SCVs, you can't attack any time soon and you get massively out-droned.
There is no easy counter to the drone rush (at least not that anyone knows of), if it was easy for you to stop, he just executed it badly. It's a micro battle and it can go either way.
strange how you all speak definately. Without testing, the strategy I suggested was theoretical.....perhaps keep the discussion theoretical. I think there is a reasonable chance floating the cc is a bust to the strategy. Many don't want to consider it cause it's such a newb move, while drone rushing is typically a gosu player have fun with the chobos. At least test the strategy before you trash it. For instance iEchoic, I think you overestimate the advantage zerg might have, perhaps destroying the depot and sending ALL drones back home is the best response, but does it gaurantee vitory, I am doubtful. terran did get a free 10-20 secs of mining time as zerg ran his drones across the map. and if terran sees all the drones come back home, he'd be an idiot to fight 12 drones with 7 scvs. if he send his 7 scvs back home and instantly build a new depot at new cc spot, it could be interesting.
-cancel rax -avoid drones with your scv's (run around the cc once) -head for the hatch with all your scv's and lift off cc (don't move the cc) -take one attacking scv and build a supply depot in a hidden spot somewhere on the map
1. if you see him backing off, immediately (so that he can see it) land the cc and produce scv's 2. if he stays, kill the hatch, lol
On January 05 2011 06:11 Meatpuppet wrote: strange how you all speak definately. Without testing, the strategy I suggested was theoretical.....perhaps keep the discussion theoretical.
It's not theoretical, I've tried lifting my CC - I posted earlier that I've practiced vs this many times. I'm just explaining what happened (which is pretty much what Chill said) - you end up having less workers and no opportunity for aggression. No competent zerg player is going to let you win from there.
-cancel rax -avoid drones with your scv's (run around the cc once) -head for the hatch with all your scv's and lift off cc (don't move the cc) -take one attacking scv and build a supply depot in a hidden spot somewhere on the map
1. if you see him backing off, immediately (so that he can see it) land the cc and produce scv's 2. if he stays, kill the hatch, lol
should work? ^^
I like that strategy too, at the very least I think there is a good chance that using some sort of strategy built around floating the cc might bust this cheese.
On January 05 2011 06:17 Meatpuppet wrote: -cancel rax -avoid drones with your scv's (run around the cc once) -head for the hatch with all your scv's and lift off cc (don't move the cc) -take one attacking scv and build a supply depot in a hidden spot somewhere on the map
1. if you see him backing off, immediately (so that he can see it) land the cc and produce scv's 2. if he stays, kill the hatch, lol
should work? ^^
No ^^
So one less scv to fight against while he is building that extra depot, for what? Once you lift off, you are not landing again. My drones will be in the way, gg.
Me and a practice partner had about 20 games in a row, i told him it was pretty easy (hes the terran) to hold.. you just set all your workers on repair... as soon as u spot it.. cancel your barracks... and then Aclick <-- to victory in the minreal line (the back scv will repair the front ones) and he will slowly lose drones while you win.. if he trys to glitch through then well he already lost because you have more scv !
On January 05 2011 05:51 Meatpuppet wrote: chill, terran won't have 8 scvs, he'll only be limited to 11 supply IF zerg destroys the supply depot. so the zerg with 12 drones, sees the cc float off with 5 scvs in it, leaving 6-7 behind, all send past the drones to the hatch at home correct. stays a few second to destroy the supply depot, and one could try to micro harrass the destruction of the depot, but i don't think that'd be a good idea with a 12 drone vs 6-7 scv. It won't take that long to reach the new cc site, so zerg takes approx 7 drones to defend home, leaving 5 to go after the cc. the timing of those 5 drones reaching the new mining site is everything, but i think the destructable rocks forcing the long detour round gives enough time to get at least one mining cycle done. that would be enough to eventually win. terran just can't allow zerg to build an overlord and continue mining himself
Why would Zerg ever attack the supply depot? That's retarded. The clear threat is the SCVs.
Even more retarded would be to attack the rocks. Any competent Zerg would just make workers and end up ahead.
How is Terran going to "not allow Zerg to build an Overlord"? Man, you make no sense.
Jeez, chill Chill. why wouldn't zerg kill the depot, you think chasing all the scvs is better, not at all. Divide up drones ok, leave 1 - 5 to kill depot, ok. But what you say doesn't make sense. How are 5-7 scvs floating across a map more of a threat than the supply depot. Not to mention, do you know how long it takes for 5-7 scvs to kill a hatch. Man, you could take get up to take a piss, come back, and the hatch is still alive.
Oleksandr your point about not being able to land the cc is important, maybe to suggest if one drone IS left behind for this purpose then floating the cc somewhere else is preferable, but the point of the hidden supply depot is quite clear; allows you to build more scv's.
Forgot your other two "points" chill. When did I ever say zerg should attack the rocks, if I'm not mistaken, which I could be, the rocks only force a detour route that zerg drones would have to traverse to reach the landing site for the terran cc. but if the rocks COMPLETELY block all ground access, great, then gg, drone rushing is busted. And by terran can't allow zerg to build overlord and continue mining. This is situational, if zerg divides drones, the control group sent back to defend the hatch, if small enough in size for terran to harrass effectively, terran should not send the 5-7 attacking scvs back home to mine, that would take too long, but harrass the drones to PREVENT THEM FROM MINING.
On January 05 2011 06:17 Meatpuppet wrote: -cancel rax -avoid drones with your scv's (run around the cc once) -head for the hatch with all your scv's and lift off cc (don't move the cc) -take one attacking scv and build a supply depot in a hidden spot somewhere on the map
1. if you see him backing off, immediately (so that he can see it) land the cc and produce scv's 2. if he stays, kill the hatch, lol
should work? ^^
No ^^
So one less scv to fight against while he is building that extra depot, for what? Once you lift off, you are not landing again. My drones will be in the way, gg.
you have 11-12 scv's against 12 drones (last one in production assuming you lose 2-1 scv's during the start of the battle), 13 if you are really quick to react.
that's a serious danger for the hatch, so he has to back off with at least the same number of drones. if he decides to split up his drones to follow-block your cc from landing, you can always split up too (one more scv than drone). the most crucial thing is, of course, to not attack the drones unless you can outnumber the attacking drones (2v1 is ok [drone blocking cc] - 12v11 is way more risky, so don't attack unless you have good micro.)
note that zerg has only enough money for one overlord and one drone. terran has about the same money which means 3 workers assuming your depot isn't killed (if he's killing it, there is either no drone follow-blocking the cc or too frew drones to defend at the hatch.
note: I'm not saying the same as meatpuppet which actually does lose :S
one question though: couldnt a squad of lets say 7 scvs pull off a harass on the zergs mining workers after the "reset game"-scenario?
zerg goes for 12 drone rush, terran cancels all stuff, loads 5 scvs in, floats them to the "island" expo behind the destructible rocks and rebuilds there.
meanwhile, his remaining 7 scvs run around the map, trying to avoid the drone blob. after the drones are back at the zergs base, u come in with the 7 scvs and stack them, then go in to attack his drones. once he pulls the drones, u back off. if he chases u, good, thats lost mining time for him. if he stops and returns to mining, u just turn on autorepair and then repeat the harass.
this way u could delay his mining in the "reset game, zerg has more drones"-scenario. if he builds an early pool to fend it off, u have also caught up economically as he didnt drone to his fullest potential in this case.
On January 05 2011 06:28 Meatpuppet wrote: Jeez, chill Chill. why wouldn't zerg kill the depot, you think chasing all the scvs is better, not at all. Divide up drones ok, leave 1 - 5 to kill depot, ok. But what you say doesn't make sense. How are 5-7 scvs floating across a map more of a threat than the supply depot. Not to mention, do you know how long it takes for 5-7 scvs to kill a hatch. Man, you could take get up to take a piss, come back, and the hatch is still alive.
They're a threat because if he gets enough of them / repairs well he can kill all your Drones. If he has less than you, he can kill your mining Drones while you're off killing his Depot. If he starts mining while having 8 SCVs on the field, he can begin the process of sniping Drones / repairing. It's a big problem.
On January 05 2011 06:37 Meatpuppet wrote: Forgot your other two "points" chill. When did I ever say zerg should attack the rocks, if I'm not mistaken, which I could be, the rocks only force a detour route that zerg drones would have to traverse to reach the landing site for the terran cc. but if the rocks COMPLETELY block all ground access, great, then gg, drone rushing is busted. And by terran can't allow zerg to build overlord and continue mining. This is situational, if zerg divides drones, the control group sent back to defend the hatch, if small enough in size for terran to harrass effectively, terran should not send the 5-7 attacking scvs back home to mine, that would take too long, but harrass the drones to PREVENT THEM FROM MINING.
Okay, so basically you have no idea what you're talking about. Stop replying. You're embarassing yourself.
On January 05 2011 06:39 Black Gun wrote: one question though: couldnt a squad of lets say 7 scvs pull off a harass on the zergs mining workers after the "reset game"-scenario?
zerg goes for 12 drone rush, terran cancels all stuff, loads 5 scvs in, floats them to the "island" expo behind the destructible rocks and rebuilds there.
meanwhile, his remaining 7 scvs run around the map, trying to avoid the drone blob. after the drones are back at the zergs base, u come in with the 7 scvs and stack them, then go in to attack his drones. once he pulls the drones, u back off. if he chases u, good, thats lost mining time for him. if he stops and returns to mining, u just turn on autorepair and then repeat the harass.
this way u could delay his mining in the "reset game, zerg has more drones"-scenario. if he builds an early pool to fend it off, u have also caught up economically as he didnt drone to his fullest potential in this case.
Okay, here's how it works:
You have 7 scvs left. He puts 8 drones a-moving onto your scvs. He moves the remaining 4 drones to his base and starts mining, while you're mining absolutely nothing. No matter where you engage with your SCVs, you're going to come out behind because there are more drones than SCVs. Once the confrontation inevitably happens, he's going to get even more drones to mine with (whatever stays alive). You can't just run around endlessly with a pack of workers like you can with one worker because they're going to take damage every time they turn (try it). If you try to harass the mineral line, the 8 drones chasing your 7 workers are going to kill them.
You landed your CC behind a rock so you can't be aggressive at all. The zerg expands and makes 6 million drones and easily wins the game.
On January 05 2011 06:31 Meatpuppet wrote: Oleksandr your point about not being able to land the cc is important, maybe to suggest if one drone IS left behind for this purpose then floating the cc somewhere else is preferable, but the point of the hidden supply depot is quite clear; allows you to build more scv's.
At the point of 12 drone rush you already have 12/18 supply. Why would you want more than 18 workers to beat 12 drones?
On January 05 2011 06:31 Meatpuppet wrote: Oleksandr your point about not being able to land the cc is important, maybe to suggest if one drone IS left behind for this purpose then floating the cc somewhere else is preferable, but the point of the hidden supply depot is quite clear; allows you to build more scv's.
At the point of 12 drone rush you already have 12/18 supply. Why would you want more than 18 workers to beat 12 drones?
Unless I am mistaken, wouldn't you do a double extractor trick for this? Much faster than building an OL then drones.
On January 05 2011 06:44 qxc wrote: this theory craft thread bores me. Any zerg pm me to play this and I'll post replays after.
if you know it's coming, it's way easier to hold off.
wall at the bottom of the ramp, leave rax at 25% and pull your scv back, cancel rax at 1-5%, wait till your 14th scv pops and profit..
you always have to assume that you're at least losing one scv (scout and/or scv building rax) ^.^
just saying but please go ahead, will be interessting to see how a pro acutally handles it.
It's not hard to force yourself to play standard until you see the tell. Being able to break away from standard play and defend correctly is the exact real-world application needed.
obviously the point isn't to blind counter the build in such a way that leaves you vulnerable/weaker to other builds. The point is to show that it is defensible using a relatively standard opening with specific transitions and micro techniques.
Has any tried sending 9 scvs to attack the opppents main and hiding 5 in the command center? They would have to chase the scvs with at least nine of the drones making repair micro easier and the new scvs coming in make a bigger difference in the battle. If the drones stay to attack you can just lift before the command center goes to the red and float to the island.
sorry I didn't read everything and dunno if it has been said:
simply block off at the bottom of your ramp(only need 1 depot/1barracks). The Barracks will obviously be building as the drones are coming and as soon as you see them you can pull some scvs to repair/replace scvs that die making barracks. Once the barracks is up its pretty much game.
this may seem like a blind counter but it really isn't :\ I've been doing this ever since I heard about it as its great for hiding every early things you do + prevents gas steal (usually, if he doesnt scout early). And if he does happen to be doing baneling bust, you just kinda have to know it and quickly block off the top of your ramp with buildings. (its not like you would've survived anyway if you had built everything up top and didn't know about it).
anyway, if you do build on top, I have tried games already vs my friend and it is simply countered by canceling the barracks as soon as you see the drones, and putting 1-2 scvs on repair. Also, STAY IN THE MINERAL LINE. If you run out you wont have efficient repairing and he can easily micro away low HP drones at the front. If he can't do that easily (due to narrow mineral line) and you're the one gaining HP and therefore not losing scvs, you pretty much will win.
On January 05 2011 07:05 qxc wrote: obviously the point isn't to blind counter the build in such a way that leaves you vulnerable/weaker to other builds. The point is to show that it is defensible using a relatively standard opening with specific transitions and micro techniques.
yes, of course not but I just wanted to mention that there are some scenarios in this case that might be determined by luck (scout scv lost / rax building scv lost) that have to be considered.
and of course you have to find someone who is equally skilled in micro as you are. ^^
btw: has someone tried out if its better: - to rally the 2 last drones behind and immediately engage with the other 10 drones or - to wait for the 2 drones to pop and maybe gather up to 150 mins and build 1 overlord + 1 drone (idra had 143 mins in this replay as he attacked)
On January 05 2011 07:14 emidanRKO wrote: sorry I didn't read everything and dunno if it has been said:
simply block off at the bottom of your ramp(only need 1 depot/1barracks). The Barracks will obviously be building as the drones are coming and as soon as you see them you can pull some scvs to repair/replace scvs that die making barracks. Once the barracks is up its pretty much game.
this may seem like a blind counter but it really isn't :\ I've been doing this ever since I heard about it as its great for hiding every early things you do + prevents gas steal (usually, if he doesnt scout early). And if he does happen to be doing baneling bust, you just kinda have to know it and quickly block off the top of your ramp with buildings. (its not like you would've survived anyway if you had built everything up top and didn't know about it).
Nice theory craft without practice.
I've defeated Terrans with such a wall off. Barracks dies pretty quickly, since it is already low on health, and I can have 7-8 drones attacking it. A single scv building it wont save the barracks. GG.
On January 05 2011 07:14 emidanRKO wrote: sorry I didn't read everything and dunno if it has been said:
simply block off at the bottom of your ramp(only need 1 depot/1barracks). The Barracks will obviously be building as the drones are coming and as soon as you see them you can pull some scvs to repair/replace scvs that die making barracks. Once the barracks is up its pretty much game.
this may seem like a blind counter but it really isn't :\ I've been doing this ever since I heard about it as its great for hiding every early things you do + prevents gas steal (usually, if he doesnt scout early). And if he does happen to be doing baneling bust, you just kinda have to know it and quickly block off the top of your ramp with buildings. (its not like you would've survived anyway if you had built everything up top and didn't know about it).
Nice theory craft without practice.
I've defeated Terrans with such a wall off. Barracks dies pretty quickly, since it is already low on health, and I can have 7-8 drones attacking it. A single scv building it wont save the barracks. GG.
I wass actually gonna edit my post and say this exact thing xP
I'm gonna test it and see if I'll have enough minerals to quickly throw down 1 more barracks, cancel the barracks being made right before it dies and then throw another barracks and put an scv or two in between on hold and have some repairing them.
Either way, 1-2 scvs on repair + fighting at mineral line is auto win from what I've experienced. Didn't even micro the scvs and he was microing drones and still lost with me having 7 scvs left. Just remember not to have too many scvs on repair (4+) because if tries to attack from more than 1 side you can be really screwed.
I suck (platinum at best) but here is my 2 cents. First, every time you pull ZvT, just hotkey 3 groups of workers when you're starting, everyone has spare APM for this (3 groups of 4 scvs each), so it is no disadvantage and can be done blindly. When you eventually do see the rush, cancel the rax, set all scv's to auto repair. If they don't rush, then replace the hotkeys whenever you like. Here is what i would do different,
When they are in your base, and you are running your scvs away, let them attack your CC if they want, Lift off only when it is slightly damaged, and run your 3 groups of scv's in different directions, they will likely not be able to follow accurately, all the while if they are attacking your CC, you send at least one group to their hatch, while running the others around a bunch. Start attacking their hatch and try and have your other groups of scv's closer to their base than their drones are. Then, run to their ramp, and get the other 8 scvs to hold position on their ramp and auto repair. The drones can't engage properly with a good concave, and you can just kill their hatch slowly, if they try to mineral walk past your wall, the extra attacks you get should be enough to win the battle, i think.
1) Hotkey 3 groups of SCV's blindly *shouldnt cost you anything if they arent doing this rush 2) When you see this rush, run all your groups in different directions to get away, and set auto repair, cancel your rax when it is almost dead. 3) if they go for your CC, just go attack their hatchery 4) When they come back, block their ramp with your scv's on autorepair 5) slowly kill their hatch with a few of your scv's, while they can't kill your CC as it is in the air.
haha i find it funny that people dont just run around intill they spend all the mienrals on workers then a attack the drones and twiddle their thumbs. this is funny he fought at the minerals that was silly.
yes, of course not but I just wanted to mention that there are some scenarios in this case that might be determined by luck (scout scv lost / rax building scv lost) that have to be considered.
I think we have different definitions of luck?
haha i find it funny that people dont just run around intill they spend all the mienrals on workers then a attack the drones and twiddle their thumbs. this is funny he fought at the minerals that was silly.
Steppes doesn't have huge bases, you can't just run circles easily and not take damage.
haha i find it funny that people dont just run around intill they spend all the mienrals on workers then a attack the drones and twiddle their thumbs. this is funny he fought at the minerals that was silly.
Steppes doesn't have huge bases, you can't just run circles easily and not take damage.
i tryed it with a friend a couple times and won and dismissed drone rush as a possibility of working to someone who has seen it. if the drones were gunna corner me i just A attacked when out in the open and won. I dont know if microing helps at all either if u are out in the open away from minerals.
If anything couldn't the terran player just a-move since scv's have an extra 5 health they should theoretically be able to win without much micro. I've never encountered this rush before but even though I did watch the replays I honestly can't see terran losing when the worker count is equal and the scv's have the health advantage. Of course the concave makes a huge difference but if you engage in the open it should be a landslide for the Terran. Then again I've never played against this before so I'm going off pure speculation.
On January 05 2011 12:52 Moriarity wrote: If anything couldn't the terran player just a-move since scv's have an extra 5 health they should theoretically be able to win without much micro. I've never encountered this rush before but even though I did watch the replays I honestly can't see terran losing when the worker count is equal and the scv's have the health advantage. Of course the concave makes a huge difference but if you engage in the open it should be a landslide for the Terran. Then again I've never played against this before so I'm going off pure speculation.
With a head-on-head battle there's no health advantage because drones heal during the fight. A drone that has an effective 41 hp may as well have 45 since they do damage in 5 - it takes 9 hits either way.
A large battle with micro means a drone might be able to heal 6hp or more.
Wouldn't it be entertaining if i lift up my cc then pull all my scvs and send them straight to zerg's base? ^^
I got drone rushed once and i just panicked...ofcourse lost...sounds like fighting in the mineral line is the best response...definitely will try it if i encounter this on the ladder.
What happens to the 12drone rush when T proxies their first rax? Or if the T builds the first rax at the back of their base? Will drones till be able to take out the building scv in time?
Two strategies come to mind that were not mentioned in the previous posts: I have tried neither of these strategies; if anyone has actual info on their viability please share.
1. you see drone rush coming, cancel rax. load a single scv into command center. lift to island expansion. run the other scvs around without losing any -- the goal with these is to deny the zerg player the ability to return to his hatch and mine. given you should be at even or near even count (if you have a fast enough reaction time to avoid losing the building scv) you should be on even footing for this battle. the zerg should respond by killing your isolated supply depot, but this can be rebuilt with the mineral excess at island. ultimately you should be able to land with your single worker and generate a small economy while denying his.
2. see drone rush coming, cancel rax, lift command center. float command center to your ramp. land either above or below the ramp, forming a smaller choke for your scv's to fight in. here the repair mechanic should be particularly effective, and you might be able to pull a few workers off to mine. the zerg would obviously be trying to interrupt the landing sequence. this however would force them to follow your command center giving you additional flexibility that you might be able to turn into an advantageous choke and the win.
This build is so fail, i play at around the 2700 diamond level, and many zergs have tried this against me on Steppes of war. None of them have succeeded. The key is to cancel ur barracks and stall as long as u can, and build scvs, because they are supply blocked and ur not.
On January 05 2011 16:02 P00RKID wrote: What happens to the 12drone rush when T proxies their first rax? Or if the T builds the first rax at the back of their base? Will drones till be able to take out the building scv in time?
I think the problem with your line of thinking is that when the drones arrive, you probably still have like 40 seconds left on the rax building time and almost no minerals in the bank. Meaning that if you let the rax continue building, not only will your fighting scvs lose(not enough total scvs), you will only be able to afford a single marine once the rax actually finishes. That's if the drones haven't actually killed the constructing scv by then.
On January 05 2011 02:40 boblzer0 wrote: how about lift the cc and go kill his hatch with your svcs haha. if he follows you just make more svcs and mine.
that's absolutely brilliant.
On Steppes, you could easily take all your SCV and right click them to his base. They hve to chase, and meanwhile you take corner and start mining again. Even if you a move to army trade, you're still mining so you win.
As someone who likes to 12DR on steppes sometimes, I think that is a great idea.
Now, if you just lift to island and try to drone trade though I think you'd lose, but if you don't give zerg the option to retreat and mine, I think you win.
Well, i hava expirienced this couple of time (i`m terran), and a little change is.. since msot terrans wall of, just send your sccv taht is building depot to scout if you see drones, just bring one more scv to complete the wall with depot (assuming you build the rax at the ramp.) BTW, i always won when zerg did this to me GL terrans
EPT
