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Well, if you want to win TvZ you need to harass zerg as much as you can and inflict serious damage to enter mid/late game with an advantage. The problem I am facing now is that I can't find a non-all-in effective way to harass the zerg.
I have been doing 4 marine 1 hellion poke followed by a banshee without cloak, to make zerg pump some zerglings and to make him lose his macro mode. This poke seems effective but there isn't much you can do after it, because after banshee comes I usually FE. Well you can pump medivacs and drop all over zerg base, but he will spot them easily due to overlord spread and later on Muta will shut it down.
Recently I saw 1 Reactor Factory and 2 Port Cloak Banshee hellion/banshee play to heavily damage zerg's economy. this build seems quite strong, but it is very all-in'ish. I saw dayvie doing it against gnome and some korean dude against Idra. They won both those games. I would like you see more replay with this build, but I think it is easily shut down by higher number of queens and few roaches.
Opening with 2/1/1 and reactor starport to get double medivacs fast drop seems quite strong (stim is being made after second marine pops out, and you have it done something like 10 sec before medivacs pops out.) The problem is that, if zerg overlord spots it, you are in a world of pain. Unless he hasn't made units in time.
The Famous two Rax seems to be working on only very short position maps, such as close Meta or close LT. So I use it very rarely.
If you have any replays with unique harass style from Terran side, please post it. I would also like to hear some feedback on these harass builds.
I'm Diamond 2750 Points Terran player.
Thanks.
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Maybe it's a good idea to make a single viking to tackle the problem of the overlord spread (at least before mutas are out).
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A few things about what your saying... Its not really an FE any more if you do it after banshees are out. Second, other than banelings Z has nothing that doesn't melt to marines (except ultras I guess). I've been using a good size drop (2 octo marine drop) to take focus off Z's front (they have to react) then moving in the front with 6-8 sieged tanks and the rest of MM with reinforcements to push down zerg with reasonable success recently. Its not ideal but I find that after a poke to force some units it actually works better to just move in with 4-5 rax 2 fact and 1 port off 2 base (marines only no marauders) vs most zerg combos. If it fails you should have at least set them back equally and if they don't react to the drop, pick it up and start killing more bases. The key is to catch their ground forces with tanks sieged, after that mutas melt to the marines.
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Better question is, how do you NOT harass Zerg?
Joke aside, just keep throwing stuff in there. Your early build sounds excellent for putting on pressure, and you seem to have a nice transition. I'd probably recommend some kind of serious push soon after the Banshee to keep the Zerg off-kilter and to keep the Mutas home, perhaps Marine-heavy pressure after your spending on Banshees. You could also intensify the Banshee pressure if you find you have a lot of extra gas to help your expo go down.
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i am a high level zerg diamond 1v1 player. the single best thing terran can do is harassing drops at MULTIPLE spots simultaneously. or drops on the main while a push on the front. this requires a lot of dropship micro (key in terran v zerg), but its how you slow zerg enough to make your frontal attack effective.
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How do you do drops, after Zerg has mutas? With mutas around, overlords can give vision and mutas are fast enough to intercept most drops before they arrive.
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Sometimes you will be spotted and get shut down, and sometimes you won't. There's no such thing as a super effective risk free harass.
Things that work against me, hellion drops in the main usually get something, and the hellions usually survive. Two port banshee never works against me, I'll always either scout it or strongly suspect it unless your main is huge and you have marines everywhere. And is losing a medivac full of marines really such a huge loss? That's 300/100 right, but it has the potential to cost me a lot more and a reasonable chance of getting out alive.
One port banshee where the banshee flirts in and out of range behind my minerals on bases on maps where this is possible is really good and not that expensive. I have to prepare as though you are making more banshees than you are, and get detection just in case, and you'll still probably snipe a bunch of drones. I don't play terran so I can't give you a more specific build order.
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a medivac full of marines is 500/100 and its a pretty big loss that early in the game if you dont do damage with it before it dies.
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plz dont harass zerg, its annoying
User was warned for this post
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at 2300 diamond I've been having a lot of success with a series of pokes leading to a 2 base push. It basically consists of a 3 marine 1 or 2 scv push to try to punish a 15 hatch FE. If I feel confident enough entering that foray then I usually put down a bunker and make him try to break. While this is happening I build factory first, then reactor core, a command center, then pump 2 hellions harass but make sure to keep them alive. The damage is done by forcing unit production, not by killing drones. While this is occurring make an armory, a couple more hellions and use your barracks to make the tech lab. When tech lab and armory are complete switch your factory with your barracks and make a thor or two. Push out when you have your second thor.
If you've managed to keep your hellions alive and have been able to keep up marine production you'll be able to either win outright or experience an extremely favorable army trade.
I've actually won using this build after losing every single one of my scv's (except for one I had set off the side ready to build a CC) to a baneling bust.
So in essence it consists of two harasses then a push
a 3 marine 2 scv and maybe bunker harass
a 2 - 4 hellion harass while waiting for 2 thors
then a 8-10 scv + 10-12 marines + 4 hellions and 2 thors push with a fully functional expo up and running.
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You don't hurt him by actually hurting him, that's too easy to stop. Just scare him. You pretty much always want to make him think you're going to attack and then don't attack.
Or just do a blue flame hellion drop and he'll have just a few short seconds to respond or lose the game immediately.
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On December 29 2010 01:46 Thrombozyt wrote:
How do you do drops, after Zerg has mutas? With mutas around, overlords can give vision and mutas are fast enough to intercept most drops before they arrive.
drop the marines and then the mutas are toast. also drop mules to repair the medivac if needed. if you can drop in enough places at one time, the mutas can't be everywhere (at least, not in enough numbers to be a serious threat).
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If you're doing Marine/Hellion poke--->Banshee--->Expand you could cut or extremely delay your second geyser, I noticed I could get my CC up quite a bit faster doing that while still having enough gas to pump Banshees, which give good map control until Spire tech.
It's important to remember a lot of this early harassment is to make Zerg commit larva to Zerglings/Spines and not just spam drones. If Zerg kills off your Marine/Hellion push with a bunch of speedlings, but you're ahead on worker count, it's not a total loss for you.
Mutalisks make harass tougher, but while the Mutas are dealing with your harassment they're not harassing you. Knowing where his mutalisks are can let you sneak in some drops or hellion run-bys. You can continue with Banshees if you get Cloak; Mutas are faster then Banshees, but Banshees are faster then (unupgraded) Overseers.
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On December 29 2010 02:10 trevf wrote:
at 2300 diamond I've been having a lot of success with a series of pokes leading to a 2 base push. It basically consists of a 3 marine 1 or 2 scv push to try to punish a 15 hatch FE. If I feel confident enough entering that foray then I usually put down a bunker and make him try to break. While this is happening I build factory first, then reactor core, a command center, then pump 2 hellions harass but make sure to keep them alive. The damage is done by forcing unit production, not by killing drones. While this is occurring make an armory, a couple more hellions and use your barracks to make the tech lab. When tech lab and armory are complete switch your factory with your barracks and make a thor or two. Push out when you have your second thor.
If you've managed to keep your hellions alive and have been able to keep up marine production you'll be able to either win outright or experience an extremely favorable army trade.
I've actually won using this build after losing every single one of my scv's (except for one I had set off the side ready to build a CC) to a baneling bust.
So in essence it consists of two harasses then a push
a 3 marine 2 scv and maybe bunker harass
a 2 - 4 hellion harass while waiting for 2 thors
then a 8-10 scv + 10-12 marines + 4 hellions and 2 thors push with a fully functional expo up and running.
One of the strengths in this build is that the common zerg player will want to harass your base with mutas to keep you home so they can take a third and tech up to infesters / hive tech. Don't be intimidated by mutas!! When you have that second thor up and got yourself that army composition just say. Ok, go ahead and harass my base with those mutas, I'll just go attack yours and force you to lose the game unless you bring your mutas back to stop this attack and we all know how well thors and marines deal with mutas.
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i open with a few marines and hellion to poke (unless i scouted pool first then im more cautious).
followed by blue flame drop expand or non blue flame + viking harass into expand.
i choose whatever i feel will be strongest given the map and map positions. sometimes its better to go for a timing push however. cloaked banshees isnt a favorite for me vs Zerg, i usually will make 1 to deny a 3rd/map control but thats usually about it.
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I play the macro game against zerg- he gets on two base, I'll get on two base as well. I can generally force my 3rd at the same time he does, and for the 4th, he's so spread I can use anything I'd like. Hellion run-by, octo drops, banshees, the occasional landed viking, cliff abuse, creep tumor killing, the works. Anything and everything, whittle him down as I prepare a large push, and end the game.
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Many ways. Banshees would be my best bet, but Blueflame hellion runby / drop also does wonderfully, as does just a plain marine drop. After mutas come out it's a lot more difficult, but you can still do simultaneous drops, keeping in mind that the other one will most likely die. You can also push out with your army while dropping an isolated expansion and so on, if they go defend you push into their main with your army and so on.
Oh right, and some Raven play would be great as well, they completely negate mutas with PDD but they cost so much gas...
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Dont go too overboard on the harass, the marine hellion poke into banshee is very powerful and forces a ton of units. Dont be afraid to go back into macro mode for a couple of minutes. Realistically, once he has speed and mutas out theres nothing you can really do pressure wise until you have medivacs and tanks ready. After you get a solid turret line up and are starting to hold off the mutas I move out.
Ive won pretty much all of my TvZ's this weeek(2400 diamond) with a push on their third while octo dropping their main. Its just devastating. If you kill their third you are in such good position. With only four geysers the Z is forced to either just mass muta or just mass bling, both of which are easy to fight when only one of the two is en masse.
In summary, dont overcommit to the harass, at some point you need to hang tight and get your defenses up and get the machine rolling so you can pump a very nice large marine/tank army. you will be sorry if you try to much pressure and he does a 2 base bling bust or something of the like. The correct response(unless a very obvious differance in his playstyle ex:double expand, or a failed double bling bust) after your pressure is to then keep destorying his 3rd+ expos and confing him to 2 base while dropping, killing creep, and defending the inevitable muta harass.
Hope this helps.
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I Love doing a blue flame hellion drop to force roaches. and then marauders to clean up
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On maps with multiple spawning locations, if I find my opponent early, I'll put a partially build Engineering Bay at his natural and leave it there until I'm forced to cancel. It's 100 Minerals that could've been used elsewhere, but delaying Zerg's expansion is always a big plus. If my SCV is able to somehow able to stay near the natural, I'll start building a Bunker after I send Marines over.
If I don't find my opponent early enough, or if I scout an early Pool, depending on the map, I'll either go 1/1/1 with a Blue Flame Hellion drop, or 2/1 MM with CC (while researching Stim) and maybe one or two siege-less Tanks.
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A single reaper and a single bunker makes the zerg go nuts.
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if you really want to harass go 1-1-1 make hellions a viking to snipe scouting ovies and a banshee after the viking
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number 1 thing i do is to do viking->raven instead of banshee and throw the viking all over the map to make him bring the overlords back to his base or lose them. then the raven is used to push back the creep with some poking moves. finally, get medivacs and then begin dropping.
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On December 29 2010 02:09 rich-. wrote:
plz dont harass zerg, its annoying
hahaha!
If you see Twaxter in ladder, please do this^
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I personally don't harass, I prefer to pressure. I do the (if I'm not in close positons, in which case I 2 rax bunker rush), what I consider, standard 4/5 marine hellion push followed by cloaked banshees, but don't harass after that, just pressure, contain, and deny bases.
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Helion Drops are lethal, vikings attacking overlords, Nuking, Dropping in different places, behind mineral line stim, Tank siege scans (high ground low ground stuff), Auto Turrets, Reapers, bunker rush/slow down FE, Banshee harass, lots of stuff man. It just matters how well you execute them, and how much you make your small advantage work.
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how 'bout agressive 1/1/1? Bunker rush into hellions into cloaked banshees. Works all the time from what I've seen, and you can play the switcheroo game to get any upgrades you need on the way.
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There's definitely a few ways to harass Zerg.
1. Build a viking, set it on patrol and shift click many places for it to go. Set it and forget it. It will now attack whatever overlords it finds. Just don't send it to his base.
2. Do a banshee harass...research cloak, then 10 seconds later, the banshee, usually cloak will be done as the banshee reaches his base. Park your banshee near his minerals, keep an eye on him while you use hot keys to macro more units.
3. Build 2 hellions, perhaps with a reactor switch, then micro his drones, all the while macroing with hot keys for more units.
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I find one of the best ways to harrass is actually just the threat of an attack.
Moving to the base of the ramp then retreating to safety forces larva to be used on aggressive units instead of drones. Forcing zerg into spending money and larva while not quite as good as kill off drones is still a decent way to annoy the zerg , and it can be done at nearly any stage.
Try building a bunker near his base , let him scout it then salvage it.. usually causes some panic xD
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On December 29 2010 02:23 PhiliBiRD wrote:
i open with a few marines and hellion to poke (unless i scouted pool first then im more cautious).
followed by blue flame drop expand or non blue flame + viking harass into expand.
i choose whatever i feel will be strongest given the map and map positions. sometimes its better to go for a timing push however. cloaked banshees isnt a favorite for me vs Zerg, i usually will make 1 to deny a 3rd/map control but thats usually about it.
I'll vouch for this. It totally destroyed me a bunch of times. Damnit phili, i want a re.
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Economic 2 rax + feints, into a good harass tech seems easy and effective.
Edit: Oh, and I like to block the bottom ramp with first depot/rax. The lack of information is like early harassment.
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2 rax fake into FE into Hellion harass into either hellion drop or bancheese cloaked or not.
Really fucking awful to deal with, requires a lot of attention and APM to deal with. Terrans that harass and then park their main army outside of my base but in vision fuck with my mind. Fucks me up hardcore and I'm 2500D.
I much prefer terrans that play standard. Keep it to MMM drops or Marine/Tank or Mech play please. I hate being the one not harassing.
On December 29 2010 05:49 Zephirdd wrote:
how 'bout agressive 1/1/1? Bunker rush into hellions into cloaked banshees. Works all the time from what I've seen, and you can play the switcheroo game to get any upgrades you need on the way.
This as well. Sucks.
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Open reactor helion (gas before racks). Spit out 4 helions and then build a CC. Opponent will have to rush roaches to effectively counter it (or build 2 or 3 spines early). Either way, your opponent will not have out-macroed you in the early game and you will be on equal footing midgame. Do not use on Steppes of War or Shakuras as the expansions are well guarded. Great on Scrap station and jungle basin. Pitfall is that is easily scouted; however, that doesn't mean you'll be behind.
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On December 29 2010 02:09 rich-. wrote:
plz dont harass zerg, its annoying
best quote ever.
do you just stop with banshee harass?
the best part of this game is that no one is always safe everywhere. unless there is an excess of queens, pulling them away from their larva inject while sniping at a building is great, especially if you pull em off creep. bahsees are also great at sniping whatever may be sitting at the xel naga tower(s)
also dont let it die without trying to get away. bring them back to base and repair. use it to scout, not just the base, but newly formed creep tumors, spot their overlords so you can pick em off later. im also more in favor of hellion drops, or run bys at expos.
zerg for quite a while is exposed to harassment, the good folks at blizzard must agree that pressure, harassment and aggression are the best ways T can stay in the game.
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If nothing else, I think 1-2 vikings is essential. Putting a Z in the blind is huge because now he can't just make his army only when he deems it necessary. Not to mention it will make drops actually usable.
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Ive seen trump follow up his 5 marine and 1 helion push with marauders and helions. Seems decent at punishing the zerg for droning too hard. And he expands while doing it.
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personally I have the most problems with blue fame hellion transition into mech. If done early enough, you should be able to get a couple hellions against only zerglings, which is just a joke. It forces the zerg to get roaches or throw down spines to protect his mineral line.
You then expand behind it and transition to 3 factory tank/thor. Save your hellions to roast lings, and slap a reactor on your barracks to pump out a timing push. Throw up missile turrets as necessary.
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Harass is generally beter for midgame when you allready established an economy and need to pull ahead. I would rather 2 rax pressure early game and force lings / hit timings where you can deal damage while building up towards the midgame. You can drop harass with medivacs later in the game to get an edge.
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i could give you an advice to always open aggressively and delay hatch by:
bunker rush
2 bunker block
ebay on expo
depending on map and timings on pool
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On December 31 2010 06:20 MorsCerta wrote:2 rax fake into FE into Hellion harass into either hellion drop or bancheese cloaked or not. Really fucking awful to deal with, requires a lot of attention and APM to deal with. Terrans that harass and then park their main army outside of my base but in vision fuck with my mind. Fucks me up hardcore and I'm 2500D. I much prefer terrans that play standard. Keep it to MMM drops or Marine/Tank or Mech play please. I hate being the one not harassing. Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 05:49 Zephirdd wrote:
how 'bout agressive 1/1/1? Bunker rush into hellions into cloaked banshees. Works all the time from what I've seen, and you can play the switcheroo game to get any upgrades you need on the way. This as well. Sucks.
How do you pull a fake 2 Racks into FE? Won't the scouting drone stay there until a marine pops out?
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you still build both rax then cut marines after 5 or so to get a CC then you can double gas and tech from there
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On December 31 2010 08:36 SecretA5DC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 06:20 MorsCerta wrote:2 rax fake into FE into Hellion harass into either hellion drop or bancheese cloaked or not. Really fucking awful to deal with, requires a lot of attention and APM to deal with. Terrans that harass and then park their main army outside of my base but in vision fuck with my mind. Fucks me up hardcore and I'm 2500D. I much prefer terrans that play standard. Keep it to MMM drops or Marine/Tank or Mech play please. I hate being the one not harassing. On December 29 2010 05:49 Zephirdd wrote:
how 'bout agressive 1/1/1? Bunker rush into hellions into cloaked banshees. Works all the time from what I've seen, and you can play the switcheroo game to get any upgrades you need on the way. This as well. Sucks. How do you pull a fake 2 Racks into FE? Won't the scouting drone stay there until a marine pops out?
On December 31 2010 08:42 ascoe wrote:
you still build both rax then cut marines after 5 or so to get a CC then you can double gas and tech from there
This. And you can still pressure with those 5 marines and 4 SCVs if you want to, and just pull back before the zerg can really retaliate.
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EPT
