Good evening, Team Liquid.

I got a replay. It's on Xel'naga Caverns. I am zerg and I am playing a Protoss who goes Dark Templar. Could you take a look at it and see what I should improve on?

I think I got a bit behind when he walled me in with cannons, but I am not sure how behind I was. Then he hit me with Dark Templar harassment, but I killed them, but they did a lot of damage to my economy so I couldnt keep up with him.

http://www.mediafire.com/?u7vuaqllp5v3aq9

DiracMonopole

United States1555 Posts

December 20 2010 17:16 GMT

Once dts get into your base, if you dont have detection, you are pretty much screwed.

TSM

Great Britain584 Posts

December 20 2010 17:27 GMT

On December 21 2010 02:16 DiracMonopole wrote:
Once dts get into your base, if you dont have detection, you are pretty much screwed.

thats why hes making a thread....

put a spore in the mineral with two spines also get overseers ASAP. remember overseer with army dts still do damage.

bri9and

United States246 Posts

December 20 2010 17:34 GMT

What I like to do is put 1 overseer over each hatchery once you know your opponent has DT tech and one or more with your army..

DiracMonopole

United States1555 Posts

December 20 2010 17:34 GMT

Im saying once that happened, its really difficult to come back (although a recent huk game had him do just that).

Put combat units around, so the dts aggro onto them (they will need to be microed to hit workers), and dance them.

Putting down a spore crawler and 2 spines at every mineral line is wasteful.

ibreakurface

United States664 Posts

December 20 2010 17:35 GMT

It's simply a matter of scouting the darkshrine tbh. If you are playing blind putting a spore next to your ramp (make sure he can't get DT's past your ramp by warping them in over a cliff or warp prisim) or get an overseer as fast as possible will help.

Try and think of the most cost effective defense you are comfortable with. I usually but a spore or 2 at the neck of my nat so he can't just run them in, and get 1-2 overseers in case he tries something sneaky. Don't over do it, overseers and spores are expensive.

Deleted User 109835

629 Posts

December 20 2010 17:40 GMT

--- Nuked ---

Apexplayer

United States406 Posts

December 20 2010 17:43 GMT

On December 21 2010 02:40 Vezex wrote:
just make an overseer as soon as your lair is done

just do it

seriously

if your lair isn't up by the time DT's get there then that is another problem

EDIT: thats sounds kind of mean, but its just a good thing to do against any race :D

no, its fine, and its bad if someone has that much of a problem, especially when they are zerg and need literally 1 tech + no buildings to get mobile, fast, detection.

thesmoosh

113 Posts

December 20 2010 17:54 GMT

He posted the replay for a reason guys. I think he knows that you need detection to see dark templars. He wants to know what mistakes he made in the game.

I don't have SCII on this computer but I'll check it out when I get home if you haven't gotten good responses. The main thing is scouting and spotting the tech. Look up the toss DT build orders so you can be familiar enough with them to recognize when they're coming. Generally you get both gas early and go 1 gate/cyber > council > shrine > 2 more gates.

You can expect DT's around 7-8 minute mark. Obviously cannon rush delays that a bit, but it's still a good timing to keep in mind.

denzelz

United States604 Posts

December 20 2010 18:01 GMT

#10

Okay, so once again, this is a case of where you lost due to some other reason other than DTs. If people on TL would BOTHER TO WATCH THE REPLAY, you will see that the Zerg got cannoned in and his build is not only delayed but derailed completely. You didn't even get a Lair, In the mid game, the Protoss had 36 workers compared to your 16. Why did you queue up 4 queens when you had 1000 minerals in the bank?

Therefore, for all these reasons, you lost because you got cannoned in and your macro and game decision sucked. It didn't matter what the Protoss did next, you were done no matter what tech choices the Protoss made. So the title of this thread should be, how to avoid being walled in by the Protoss. Seriously, had you played a normal game with an expansion, you would have gotten a Lair and an Overseer on time to deal with DTs.

Battousai13

United States638 Posts

December 20 2010 18:04 GMT

#11

Players that wall off like that are almost certainly teching. It's going to be Voidrays or DTs.

The wall off is kind of your cue to expo and out-macro the shit out of him. You should be able to get a Lair before he pushes out with his tech. And after you hold, you can move out and just kill him. Your opponent isn't going to have a very large army if he's teching. It's going to be important to sac and Overlord and figure out what your opponent is teching to.

denzelz

United States604 Posts

December 20 2010 18:06 GMT

#12

On December 21 2010 03:04 Battousai13 wrote:
Players that wall off like that are almost certainly teching. It's going to be Voidrays or DTs.

The wall off is kind of your cue to expo and out-macro the shit out of him. You should be able to get a Lair before he pushes out with his tech. And after you hold, you can move out and just kill him. Your opponent isn't going to have a very large army if he's teching. It's going to be important to sac and Overlord and figure out what your opponent is teching to.

You don't know shit. Watch the actual replay before you spew shit out of your ass.

User was warned for this post

bobucles

410 Posts

December 20 2010 18:13 GMT

#13

He had DT's in your base four minutes before you had detection up. You lost the moment DTs walked in, and he was just screwing around for the rest of that time.

Practice spending ALL your minerals and gas. You will get things done in half the time. Spam the shit out of drones/SCV/probes, this applies to playing any race. Don't sit on larva, make them into something RIGHT AWAY.

Don't queue units up. EVER. Four queued queens is 450 minerals that are wasting around doing nothing. That is enough minerals to build another hatchery or a small army. If you have enough resources to queue units, then you didn't have enough production structures ready. Get more production next game.

Alphasquad

Austria505 Posts

December 20 2010 19:08 GMT

#14

one overseer for main and natural and then its a good idea to save your gas and get 1 spore and 2 spine crawlers for other expansions and going DT will become really costly for the protoss

Xylarthen

United States137 Posts

December 20 2010 20:29 GMT

#15

Edit: I never answered the title of the thread, and the answer is: Roaches or Zerglings. Use in combination with: (end edit)

On December 21 2010 02:40 Vezex wrote:

just make an overseer as soon as your lair is done

just do it

seriously

Honestly, in any game where I grab a quick Overseer shortly after Lair-tech, I've never had a problem with either Cloaked Banshees or DT's (go figure). It usually turns into a situation where the tricky play they were going for blows up in their face. The 100 Gas cost is not all that much (2 Hydras, 1 Muta or your Infestation Pit) and makes sense not as a precaution, but because the unit has other uses besides helping to shut down strategies that severely hurt you. The only time I wait to get one is if I am building a Spire, then its simply Spire first, and an Overseer when the Spire is building.

In Regards to the replay,

On December 21 2010 03:01 denzelz wrote:

you were done no matter what tech choices the Protoss made. So the title of this thread should be, how to avoid being walled in by the Protoss

True. Granted, if he had detection, I doubt a victory could have been had, but he wouldn't have been killed by DT's, causing the confusion and subsequent creation of this thread.

Several people have mentioned the 1 Spore, 2 Spine at each base theory, and while I am in love with Zerg "Static" defenses, (They can move) once you hit 2-3 bases, that very much becomes too expensive in drone loss (IMO) and even building cost when compared to an Overseer for each Base/Hatch. If you have Overseers at your ramps with your armies, you aren't gonna have DT's just walking into your base, and you should be able to spot a drop/warp in (both less likely) due to Overlord placement in time to fly your Overseer to your line with some troops. Additionally, an Overseer prevents Observers from camping in your base out of the range of the 1 spore in your mineral line.

Umpteen

United Kingdom1570 Posts

December 20 2010 20:46 GMT

#16

The more of these threads I read, the more I think responses along the lines of "I didn't / couldn't watch the replay but..." should be actively discouraged. And yes, I think I have been guilty in the past.

Unveiler

34 Posts

December 20 2010 20:47 GMT

#17

Gotta be careful watching replays to note the time when you were actually screwed. The rest is just other guy wanting to win with probes (or something equally screwy). Day9 ish

milkii

18 Posts

December 20 2010 21:26 GMT

#18

i think the dt´s where not the thing that killed you...

you where killed by your own play, the toss only took a bit to do something. and i really mean something, the dt´s could have been a 4 gate a expo just mass zelot or anything.

what i would do is

1. better ovi positioning (but that´s just not soo important for your level of skill)
2. IMPORTANT!!!: get a build order tester and work on one base taktiks! so the next time your trapped in your own base you can easy switch to such a build and own him most of the time becouse cheese is most of times expensive and you will almost always have more of anything than him (i would probably mass roaches and try to kill him and if it fails place a expension)

you lost to the thing that you aren´t able to play a one base build!

the only good thing i saw after you get walled was your in base hatch but it was too late for your overminerals

so try to work on one base build´s to be able to do something the next time

Edit: you can easy kill such cannons with a spinecrawler from the high ground without getting a hit from the cannons at all