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I feel like Nukes are very cost effective, especially in TvP, and should be used a lot more often. Think about it:
Every TvP I play, if Protoss player goes either Storm or Colossus if it gets to mid-late game. If he goes Storm, I get EMP for sure, and thus, I'm forced to build Ghost Academy anyway, as well as 1 or 2 ghosts. The only thing I invest in, is the 100/100 Build Nuke cost. I would probably go for the cloak upgrade 200/200 as well, because it makes EMP + Nuke so much easier. Total Cost 300/300.
Lets assume he didn't get Storm, and went for a Colossus army instead. In that case, it's debatable. EMP would help regardless, but many good Terran players I talked to, there isn't a general consensus if P goes Colossus. Some yes, some no. As for myself, I like to get EMP either way because I always have an abundance of gas since I go strictly MMM. Viking support does cost gas, yes, but I feel like 2 base gas is still sufficient. And his colossus-heavy army still suffers a lot from getting EMP'd.
Additionally, if you can do a drop + nuke at the same time, it can cause a lot of players to panic and only pay attention to one of those things. I actually went nuke-heavy against my friend, and did a simutaenous dual-nuke, where he panicked and only thought 1 nuke was launched and did a lot of damage.
I guess it all comes to multi-tasking too. Some players might be too "busy" to do a drop nuke. On the plus side, it will give you an excuse if you lose :D. And Terran's humiliation strategy is much more cost efficient and actually recommended compared to Protoss/Zerg's humiliation strat (mothership win, etc.)
![[image loading]](http://ui16.gamespot.com/1583/nuke_2.jpg)
Ahhh..thats the stuff...
EDIT: grammar error in topic title...can someone change that lol
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Yeah, it tends to pay dividends when used in pro games. It can be surprisingly effective all game - even if you are only nuking pylons or preventing an army from defending whilst you kill an expansion.
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I think jungle basin is a really good map for nukes. Especially when you start fighting in the middle after both players have their 3rd up. You can use nukes to force him to move away and deny his third. If he engages, you can try to nuke his army. The backdoors offer really good possibilites for distractions while nuking.
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I would recommend you look up that FE into double nuke build I saw floating around the Strategy forums a while ago. 2 Nukes destroy Warpgates if they're close enough to the point of impact and can basically end the game if they positioned their WGs poorly (which is often because Nukes aren't used too much).
And yes, nukes are amazing and should be used more often. Constantly, even. Either they force pumped Observers, which overall weakens the Protoss army by taking up Robo time and gas, or they just win.
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On December 13 2010 06:12 .Aar wrote:
I would recommend you look up that FE into double nuke build I saw floating around the Strategy forums a while ago. 2 Nukes destroy Warpgates if they're close enough to the point of impact and can basically end the game if they positioned their WGs poorly (which is often because Nukes aren't used too much).
And yes, nukes are amazing and should be used more often. Constantly, even. Either they force pumped Observers, which overall weakens the Protoss army by taking up Robo time and gas, or they just win.
I'll look into that build
That's a reallly really good point about how pumping Obs take up Robo time/gas
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MMMGN, making the MMM more explosive, about time.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
Nukes can be realy strong against a waek/avarage Protoss. But realy strong players will be able to handle your nukes and you will be loosing ghosts+nukes without doing much or any damage.
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I really don't think nukes are cost effective. The only things they kill are little things like, addons, supply depots, pylons, spinecrawers, ect. If you can find those things clumped up together, and you think you can land the nuke, it's worth it. Otherwise it is extremely risky. If you're aiming at units there is a huge risk that the units will move or that your ghost will be spotted and killed. That's a lot of wasted resources if that happens.
In general, nukes need to do more damage or have a larger damage radius to ever see real use. It's just too hard for them to kill anything right now.
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they are pretty damn efective, the problem is making them hit ...
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They take too long to land,
20seconds + cloak research and the time to keep cloak lasting,
I find them only cost effective if multiple are dropped on either pylons probe lines or just everywhere at once,
Try getting ghosts and 5 nuke silos up before the enemy crushes you tough.
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Heresy (hes was(?) in top 200 on NA) uses a FE into dual nuke (with 2 ghosts) on clumped warp gates. You can find the thread here, and hes got a youtube compilation of some nukes (search Heresy TvP)
From my gold level experience, it can wreck if they clumped them, but otherwise, is rather useless.
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Nuke is likely the best way of robbing your opponent of the 3rd resource in Starcraft - attention.
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For 100/100, nukes are definitely worthwhile if you're already getting ghosts. They're very distracting, and can be used for great positional plays. (Also, there's nothing more obnoxious than dropping a nuke in some unoccupied corner and freaking the opponent out for the ENTIRE period of time until the nuke lands.)
However, sacrificing 250/250 (and researching cloak) to nuke a mineral line that's just going to get evacuated before the nuke lands? Rarely worthwhile. You'd do better just to drop the ghost and have it kill workers with its basic attack.
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Nuke is only cost effective if you keep making nukes to amortize the cost of ghost tech. Eventually you will land one and get a Korean nickname if you did it in the GSL.
The problem is staying alive sinking that many resources into failed nukes until you get one that does something that pays for all of the duds in one go.
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On December 13 2010 06:57 BuuGhost wrote:
They take too long to land,
20seconds + cloak research and the time to keep cloak lasting,
I find them only cost effective if multiple are dropped on either pylons probe lines or just everywhere at once,
Try getting ghosts and 5 nuke silos up before the enemy crushes you tough.
Guess you didn't play bw? they took FOREVER to drop. They aren't so bad now.
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Opening a 4v4 With a double nuke drop is hilarious. Someone will always over-react with detection buildings.
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Haha yes please fix the grammer error xD
I do agree, nukes are very cost efficient! I'm a bit surprised that ghosts+nukes are so underused (well may be only nukes in higher level of play, i assume many higher players go MMM G or such) especially how much better the ghost tech path tree is compared to SC1!
plus they're very fun to use :D I do agree with you, compared to P/Z this is a relatively cheap, effective way to humiliate/OWN your opponent
Edit: For those of you that may not realize... 1 nuke, forcing a player to pull off workers for 1 base (more realistically, it would be at least 2 bases since he probably won't be able to find the dot) for at LEAST 10 in-game seconds, with many people pulling off workers shortly after the nuke alarm goes off due to panic/fear, will cost them about 136 minerals and 38 gas (considering they were able to pull off all their workers at the same time). But of course, this will probably be the best conditions the victim would have (know where the nuke is, and have only a few extra seconds leeway from having workers die in a nuke). So especially for the not extremely high levels of play, if a player moves their workers from an average of 2 bases an average of 25 seconds (since they panic or don't know exactly how long it takes for a nuke to hit, and since they want to pull off their workers further away just in case), that's 680 minerals and 194 gas.
Geez, is that a lot or what? xD
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you can aim it at a corner of a nexus and they wont be able to see the dot.
Just something you might wanna try
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Really? Thanks.
Also, aren't they fixing that in 1.2 though?  lol
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On December 13 2010 13:46 Kudo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 06:57 BuuGhost wrote:
They take too long to land,
20seconds + cloak research and the time to keep cloak lasting,
I find them only cost effective if multiple are dropped on either pylons probe lines or just everywhere at once,
Try getting ghosts and 5 nuke silos up before the enemy crushes you tough. Guess you didn't play bw? they took FOREVER to drop. They aren't so bad now.
They were also far more powerful, cost food and more resources. Cant be compared.
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Nukes easily make up for their cost simply by forcing the opponent to pull away workers... see my earlier post for mathcraft xD
Really, 100/100 isn't much. It distracts your opponent and may make him feel like he's in a terrible situation (the surprise factor can play a large role psychologically).
Plus, it's not like you can't take those ghosts back home and use them to fight later. They are actually a lot like marauders, except their damage is for light units, and that they're gas heavy instead of mineral heavy. But they have EMP, cloak, snipe, AND Nuke.
Also remember nukes can be used defensively too, to delay a timing push or such (or to punish someone silly enough to walk into one or keep fighting in the target of one xD) or even contain an army if you nuke like every 10 seconds lulz
Quite a deal no? :D
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in BW if 2 nukes landed in the base...
game over, everything flattened
even 2 nukes took out the 5k overmind
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Nukes are cost effective, the problem with using them comes from build time + ghost academy restrictions, and launching from a squishy ghost. So while resource-wise they are great, you cant exactly pump them like marines...
or can you! o.O 8-Academy Nuke spam anyone?
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On December 13 2010 14:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Also remember nukes can be used defensively too, to delay a timing push or such (or to punish someone silly enough to walk into one or keep fighting in the target of one xD) or even contain an army if you nuke like every 10 seconds lulz
Quite a deal no? :D
I once destroyed a Biomech Deathball during a 2v2 using a Defensive Nuke in the middle of my own base, having floated my Various Raxes around and landed them to effectively lock him in while he was trying to push towards my mineral line.
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You only need to kill 1 sieged-up tank to make the nuke itself cost-effective. There was a post a while back about using the targeting reticle to nuke a tank so that even if they scan you, the 13-range tank can't hit you. They have to either unsiege and run away or risk mobile units like MM to try and kill the ghost before the nuke lands.
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Hmm, thanks for mentioning that carbonaceous...
perhaps it can prove to be useful sometime 
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Yeah, if a Nuke lands, it's almost certainly paid off. Forcing them to pull workers or killing like three pylons is already enough, especially because of the psychological advantage. As a Protoss player, I can attest that the threat of nukes makes the game a lot more stressful. Especially because it's not something we really get to practice against much.
Also, Nukes were epic on Kulas, when the threat of reapers forced Toss to bunch all of their buildings up away from the cliffs. I do not miss that.
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On December 13 2010 14:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Also remember nukes can be used defensively too, to delay a timing push or such (or to punish someone silly enough to walk into one or keep fighting in the target of one xD) or even contain an army if you nuke like every 10 seconds lulz
Quite a deal no? :D
I have actually done a double expand into Nuke contain on a shared base ramp in a 4v4. Took so many Ghost Academies, xD. Probably was the funniest thing in the world.
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Personally I usually don't look for a dot when people nuke me, because it's so easy to hide. I look for the ripple of a ghost.
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On December 13 2010 14:58 Conrose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 14:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Also remember nukes can be used defensively too, to delay a timing push or such (or to punish someone silly enough to walk into one or keep fighting in the target of one xD) or even contain an army if you nuke like every 10 seconds lulz
Quite a deal no? :D I once destroyed a Biomech Deathball during a 2v2 using a Defensive Nuke in the middle of my own base, having floated my Various Raxes around and landed them to effectively lock him in while he was trying to push towards my mineral line.
My empire for the replay
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I remember using nukes when I started in bronze... I did a lot of creative stuff. When I started to watch Day9 and other casts to learn "standard play", my creativity vanished suddenly O.o
Still, I'm tempted to use nukes after reading this thread...
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As delightful as this sounds, and as much as it worried me to read this at first (as a protoss player), Protoss have something to easily combat ghosts in the base. Photon Cannons. If protoss actually used Cannons to their full potential (doing 20 damage to air AND land targets [something not offered in other races]) it would be impossible for a ghost to slip into the base, even with cloak.Maybe dropship nuking, but even then you have to find a very weak spot in the base, and it would have to be a very large base to attack.
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Or someone gets the chance to nuke the cannon and it's pylon fairly easily. You might get a supply block out of that
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
In the other hand, Photon Cannons are not Crawlers and may not get up and scuttle somewhere else if you find you built them somewhere bad, and they're not bunkers that you can salvage and build elsewhere when you expand. Part of the conundrum of the Photon Cannon is that when you build it, it's stuck where it is. This usually creates openings in the protoss detection ring where a ghost can sneak in with a nuke. Just hitting a couple pylons is enough to make back the resources, and if you depower buildings, it helps a lot.
I'd also like to note that it diverts APM. If you nuke during a battle, your opponent is caught between searching for your ghost and microing the battle, which could make the difference in the "emp vs feedback/storm" dance-fest that TvP casters experience.
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Two nukes aren't cost effective. 5 nukes, on the other hand...
Four ghost academies sounds like a big investment, but nuke spam tends to pay off really quick. Against P, focus on killing the vulnerable observer. Against Z, focus on multiple area strikes. You can hide the ghost in the relative safety of tank/turrets, and even nuke from behind bunker/barrack walls to protect against melee. Nuke from high ground to get the cliff advantage.
Nukes are amazing for "tank crush" strategies. They push your opponent against a wall, giving you time to build a forward base. When his back is against a wall, he has no choice but to counter attack, directly into your walled off position.
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i think they r cost effective and very underused
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they suck on buildings, of all races. If u can get a nuke out, it will do only half damg to a rax/gate or town hall. For toss, need emp+nuke to take out to red.its more the meta game than the actual damage, but greate for expos that are not gaurded or supply depots!
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Russian Federation266 Posts
Nukes rely on your opponents mistakes. Thats why you dont see them used in pro games alot.
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I use nukes all the time. Especially in TvT. In fact, most modern terran players at my level on NA (~1700 - 2000+) use Nukes in TvT.
I think using them TvP and TvZ would be great, but it's important not to rush to nukes. Ya want them lategame when theres too much shit going on to properly react.
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In GSL Final nukes could have been useful too..
+ Show Spoiler + Rain could have made a nuke push into the expo of MC on Lost Temple, while he had him contained for so long
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I saw TLO use it in the second GSL I think. He used it against terrans to force sieges tanks to unsiege and then he canceled the nuke and pushed right in. Nice strat.
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I'm a zerg player but anytime I give terran a shot I love going for the nuke.. Sometimes it fails, sometimes it lands, and when it does its devastating
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On December 20 2010 03:06 Tsabo wrote:
Nukes rely on your opponents mistakes. Thats why you dont see them used in pro games alot.
No they don't. They very clearly force your enemy to stay away from the area, which is exactly what you pay for. Forcing him to abandon an expansion can cost him the game. Nukes can protect your back side from pincer attacks, it can deny movement across ramps, and it can sometimes wreck a base or two as well. Most importantly, nukes can be used to clear the way for a tank crush, giving you enough time to establish a beach head.
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On December 20 2010 02:42 vahgar.r24 wrote:
they suck on buildings, of all races. If u can get a nuke out, it will do only half damg to a rax/gate or town hall. For toss, need emp+nuke to take out to red.its more the meta game than the actual damage, but greate for expos that are not gaurded or supply depots!
Try dropping two (maybe three, depending on the building - think nukes are 500 a pop to most buildings, though it decreases the further from the center) at the same time. Works wonders for taking out a lot of different production buildings. Saw it done on a stream and it took out the majority of a P's gateways and I think a stargate.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Nuke
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United States17042 Posts
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EPT
