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I'm starting to get depressed that I struggle so much against zerg but I win 9/10 of my TvT matchups.
I can only seem to win with a marine bunker all-in or if I practically kill him with the 2 rax rush.
Could anyone help me? I'm trying to play harass and macro games vs zerg but I just keep getting pooped on.
I made a lot of little mistakes in this game like losing vikings uneccesarily and an couple unsieged tanks. Can anyone see anything in this matchup that I need to do differently or need to do a better job with or perhaps some examples of different strats I could use? tyia
It is not a horrible game and I hope it is entertaining. I apologize for my nerdrage over being bad with my tanks at the end.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/115004-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war
also my opponent main race was protoss = /
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1. create scvs till 10
2. create supply depot
3. create scvs till 13
4. build rax
5. scout (14)
6. build scv till 15
7. build 2nd rax
8. build OC and start spam making rines
9. continually build scv/rine and rally them to your opponent's base
10. when OC finish pull 10 scv, and u should have 5-8 rines and go allin the zerg.
11. you win/profit/free points/gz
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 12 2010 07:54 Chairman Ray wrote:
Wrong link
fixed, ty
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On December 12 2010 07:54 majestouch wrote:
1. create scvs till 10
2. create supply depot
3. create scvs till 13
4. build rax
5. scout (14)
6. build scv till 15
7. build 2nd rax
8. build OC and start spam making rines
9. continually build scv/rine and rally them to your opponent's base
10. when OC finish pull 10 scv, and u should have 5-8 rines and go allin the zerg.
11. you win/profit/free points/gz
I want to get away from going all-in marine/scv because I feel like I'm not learning anything.
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hmmm. maybe watch some Jinro's games if you want to practice macro terran. his GSL 3 TvZs are pretty nice. I just finished watching him vs Moon. pretty nice. very good macro
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On December 12 2010 07:58 Logican wrote:
hmmm. maybe watch some Jinro's games if you want to practice macro terran. his GSL 3 TvZs are pretty nice. I just finished watching him vs Moon. pretty nice. very good macro
ill watch it again, I have been trying to play like that. regular pressure while macroing. I think my biggest blunder may have been my attack at the start, really horrible and I usually do a lot more damage.
If anyone can give me any other criticism it would be appreciated. tyia
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I've been dominating zerg with super harass! Reactor hellion into banshee. Its awesome and micro intensive. I started doing it after seeing some pro games. It took me a little bit to get use to it but now zergs are like instant wins even if the harass fails, they get thrown of their game. The biggest danger though is mutas but they can be easily stopped so long as stay on top of you macro while doing all the microing.
I can include more info if you're interested in this type of build.
Edit: Sorry no mention of you're replay I'm at work so I cant watch it yet.
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On December 12 2010 08:13 NadaSound wrote:
I've been dominating zerg with super harass! Reactor hellion into banshee. Its awesome and micro intensive. I started doing it after seeing some pro games. It took me a little bit to get use to it but now zergs are like instant wins even if the harass fails, they get thrown of their game. The biggest danger though is mutas but they can be easily stopped so long as stay on top of you macro while doing all the microing.
I can include more info if you're interested in this type of build.
Edit: Sorry no mention of you're replay I'm at work so I cant watch it yet.
Thanks, I saw tarson do something like that but he ended up losing that game. Yeah, that would be great if you had some more info on it or a replay. I probably do need to use hellions more.
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Just watching the replay, writing the mistakes there as i see them jumping back and forth in the replay:
1. No worker produced after constructing the OC. Between 4:00 and 5:30
2. Between Minute 12 and 25 you only produce 3-4 workers.
3. You responded to his mutalisk attack by throwing down 11 turrets, far too many,
4. You stick to pure MMM far too long, against mutalisks you need thors.
5. You never get upgrades while he had 2-1 on his zerglings and banelings.
6. You were BM at the end and projected your lack of good macro on Terran being underpowered.
7. You scouted his spire when his mutalisks already did the damage. Use scans to find out his tech choice.
The attacks were ok-ish, but because you were behind in worker count all the time - starting with 3 workers behind around 5 minutes to 24 workers behind most of the rest of the game - they were far too small, you could always have twice the units.
The game was lost when you didn't produce workers after getting the OC, after that you had to try to catch up - for example by using hellion drops to reduce his worker count and getting more workers yourself - but didn't.
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You can win a macro game vs zerg but its all about controlling territory.
Sending a stimmed marine or multiple scvs ahead to scout where the zergs army is can give you enough time to siege your tanks and the knowledge of where to siege them.
With this positition secured you can now use ravens or scans to clear up nearby creep tumors.
Then stim into the zerg and get a hit or two in and retreat to your tanks and start to push by slowly crawling tanks or back off and use a drop or two at the main or expansions while grabbing your 3rd.
After your next base is secured (turrets PF) you can push again using the same scouting patterns, siege wall, then creep tumor destruction, constant protection of your siege tanks is a must as mass mutas will wipe your tanks and leave you out in the open to a mass of lings and banelings.
Zergs dont want to engage off creep and Terrans dont want to lose there army cause they are out of the siege range. By playing a slower more tactical game you can accept all the zerg agression and dictate the flow of the game by limiting their creep and getting in the shots you need before backing off. Over commiting is the worse thing you can do vs Zerg and mismicroing my marines and mauraders have cost me games as well as not defending my tanks while being aggressive and even though it was a battle i could have won zerg can just retreated and snipe all my tanks before coming back for a complete wipe (-_-).
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On December 12 2010 08:41 Morfildur wrote:
Just watching the replay, writing the mistakes there as i see them jumping back and forth in the replay:
1. No worker produced after constructing the OC. Between 4:00 and 5:30
2. Between Minute 12 and 25 you only produce 3-4 workers.
3. You responded to his mutalisk attack by throwing down 11 turrets, far too many,
4. You stick to pure MMM far too long, against mutalisks you need thors.
5. You never get upgrades while he had 2-1 on his zerglings and banelings.
6. You were BM at the end and projected your lack of good macro on Terran being underpowered.
7. You scouted his spire when his mutalisks already did the damage. Use scans to find out his tech choice.
The attacks were ok-ish, but because you were behind in worker count all the time - starting with 3 workers behind around 5 minutes to 24 workers behind most of the rest of the game - they were far too small, you could always have twice the units.
The game was lost when you didn't produce workers after getting the OC, after that you had to try to catch up - for example by using hellion drops to reduce his worker count and getting more workers yourself - but didn't.
As stated above, I would put emphasis on the importance of macroing workers, and stress the important of upgrades in games. Your DPS of marines increasingly greatly when you upgrade your units. As well, if i recall correctly, you need +1(seige) to 1 shot zerglings with +1 carapace, without upgrades, your seige tanks are 2 hitting mobs of zerglings, which is not the best way to go about things.
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regarding the upgrade problem, im constantly forgetting to upgrade, so what ive started doing is to force myself to make 2 eng bays at around 25-30 food and start upgrading those immediately. then of course wen i get siege tanks, i force myself to build an armory to get the +1 so i can 1shot lings if i need to.
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1) You didn't cancel your bunker, and you were supply blocked at 19 food for a long time. Making mistakes such early game when you don't have much money and you only have a few units is huge.
2) you know he's going speedling (gas/pool b4 FE). Your marine micro isn't good enough to take on a round of zerglings. It's good to push out to force lings, but if you see he doesn't have an expansion, you're in the lead. Either expo before he does, or throw a few more rax up and pump units. Either way, just pull back, and wait for him to try to take his expo. He'll be weakest in relation to you not when his expansion has just gone down, but when his expansion is just about to complete. Imagine your second push with the 5 marines that died at the beginning, and I think you'd have won there.
3) attacking into creep is scary. Terran is scariest with slow, methodical pushes. Don't just run onto creep. Establish a good position, and then slowly push out. Don't just run your units onto creep.
4) timing attacks. Don't just run your units into your opponent whenever you want to. You want to attack when your stronger than your opponent. If you invest in tech/upgrades, you are BEHIND until the upgrades finish or you get higher tech units. But once the upgrades finish, or higher tech units come out you are AHEAD, as ur army is that much stronger. One of your pushes, you pushed out when siege mode was about to finish. But you only had 1 tank, and you didn't even bring the tank with you. After investing so much in the factory,tank, and siege, your army is going to be weaker than his if you don't push out with those units.
Don't push out randomly. Have a plan for when you want to pressure, triggered by events that signal that your army is prob. stronger than his army (after this unit pops, after this upgrade pops, after you see he has an expansion that's almost ready, if he invests in a spire, etc.)
That's the basics of the SC strategy. Other than that, just macro, macro, macro.
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On December 12 2010 08:41 Morfildur wrote:
Just watching the replay, writing the mistakes there as i see them jumping back and forth in the replay:
1. No worker produced after constructing the OC. Between 4:00 and 5:30
2. Between Minute 12 and 25 you only produce 3-4 workers.
3. You responded to his mutalisk attack by throwing down 11 turrets, far too many,
4. You stick to pure MMM far too long, against mutalisks you need thors.
5. You never get upgrades while he had 2-1 on his zerglings and banelings.
6. You were BM at the end and projected your lack of good macro on Terran being underpowered.
7. You scouted his spire when his mutalisks already did the damage. Use scans to find out his tech choice.
The attacks were ok-ish, but because you were behind in worker count all the time - starting with 3 workers behind around 5 minutes to 24 workers behind most of the rest of the game - they were far too small, you could always have twice the units.
The game was lost when you didn't produce workers after getting the OC, after that you had to try to catch up - for example by using hellion drops to reduce his worker count and getting more workers yourself - but didn't.
Thank you for that, I agree pretty much everything. You said I should make more SCVs and I was wondering if you would not do that if you were just trying to finish him off on 2 base?
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Thanks a lot for the great replies, I got something valuable from every post. You guys made my day. Long live TL.net!
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On December 12 2010 09:16 frumpylumps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2010 08:41 Morfildur wrote:
Just watching the replay, writing the mistakes there as i see them jumping back and forth in the replay:
1. No worker produced after constructing the OC. Between 4:00 and 5:30
2. Between Minute 12 and 25 you only produce 3-4 workers.
3. You responded to his mutalisk attack by throwing down 11 turrets, far too many,
4. You stick to pure MMM far too long, against mutalisks you need thors.
5. You never get upgrades while he had 2-1 on his zerglings and banelings.
6. You were BM at the end and projected your lack of good macro on Terran being underpowered.
7. You scouted his spire when his mutalisks already did the damage. Use scans to find out his tech choice.
The attacks were ok-ish, but because you were behind in worker count all the time - starting with 3 workers behind around 5 minutes to 24 workers behind most of the rest of the game - they were far too small, you could always have twice the units.
The game was lost when you didn't produce workers after getting the OC, after that you had to try to catch up - for example by using hellion drops to reduce his worker count and getting more workers yourself - but didn't.
Thank you for that, I agree pretty much everything. You said I should make more SCVs and I was wondering if you would not do that if you were just trying to finish him off on 2 base?
Well by 12 minutes your 2 base timing window is starting to close very quickly. Past 12 mins you either need to consider going all in or getting your 3rd up very quickly.
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If you can deny the FE and keep the zerg on one base until you get your own expo up, if you haven't won the game by then, then you will at least be light years ahead.
I'm about 1800 diamond skill-wise, and simply by using a somewhat meticulously-timed 2rax bunker rush (blocking the bottom of their ramp in), getting my expo up, and moving into 4rax (2 tech, 2 reactors) and 1 factory, I'm at a roughly 80% win-rate against Zerg.
The trick is, as I said, denying the expansion. By keeping them on one base, they're forced to sacrifice economy for military units, and they've really only got 2 options: Banelings or Roaches.
If he goes Banelings, you'll need some darn good micro but should otherwise feel safe: he may kill a LOT of your units, but what has he got left? A lot of wasted larvae. Banelings don't win games, they even out the playing field. If he keeps making banelings, his economy and the rest of his military will take a severe dip. I mean, provided you've got the marauders and/or tanks to, well, tank the banelings, you should come out on top.
If he goes Roaches, you probably don't even need the tanks: by the time he has enough to break your contain, you should have marauders pumping out and either beat him back into his base and win the game outright, or just pull back and wait for him to expand. He'll likely choose to drone at that point, and as soon as you scout the expo you should push.
If he goes for anything higher up the tech tree, by the time you're ready to push in for the kill he just won't have enough to hold you off (unless we're talking about Infestors, in which case you should just spread your units like you would with banelings, FF them and make the Zerg bash his head against his desk because he just lost a bunch of highly gas-intensive units and doesn't have enough for banes and roaches anymore.
I've got replays if you want them, too lazy to post 'em.
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If he fast expands, try fast expanding yourself and doing a 3/4 rax stim timing. Theres a lot of variants of the build, so just pick one and learn it.
It kills zergs who power too hard and gives you a pretty nice transition into a tank game.
The match ups evolving so fast though, couldn't say if this is still viable at the top levels. Try playing around with early expands and fast stim timing attacks though.
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You can push out with 4 marines at high levels because Zergs typically only have ~2-4 zerglings at this time. You can rally a hellion to those marines, which will force a ton of zerglings and the hellion will kill a ton of zerglings. You should be ahead after that. That's something to do if you can handle the multitasking but otherwise just play defensively with mech. Get a reactor and a techlab on your baracks to get stim. Get on 2 bases. Get a hand ful of marauders and a ton of marines and a couple thors and ~5 tanks. Now push out. Be reallllllly slow about it, siegeing your tanks in a line moving towards him and leapfrogging the backones forward. If he runs in with banelings use control + click to select all your marines if they arent on a second hotkey and run them all away. Put up your third during this. Most zergs at low levels will suicide all there units into your tanks once you get close enough. Make sure your seiged! After that decide if ya wanna go for the main or for an expansion.
Pre emptively build 1 turret at each mineral line at approximately 6-8 minutes into the game. Add 1-2 more (depending on how late the game is) when you push out.
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EPT
