|
Yeah, most people are missing the point.
It is really about the fact that mules don't "share" mineral patches with scvs and you therefore can really power mine mineral patches and a mass huge army.
Lots of mules and scvs (which you should have with 3+ CC on two bases) really generates a big income.
EDIT:I also feel the title is missleading.
Mostly because when you need supply urgently you generally are massing army, and when you are doing that you can't wait for a command center to be build nor can you wait 3 minutes for the 400 mineral 11 supply building to pay it self back, when you need those minerals right NOW to make an army.
Rather it is about oversaturation, powering the income -> thus the army.
|
what if you build a planetary super early to help hold off early pushes as well.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On December 04 2010 10:03 Jayzo wrote:
what if you build a planetary super early to help hold off early pushes as well.
That would be missing the point of getting the orbital in the first place?
Smacking up some bunkers and/or naked raxs for walling and you should for the most parts be fine.
|
oh man, you can wall off even wide entrances with OC's. btw, what is the saturation number of mules for a base?
|
I honestly can't see this taking off. nice try though.
When do you build the first 550 mineral command center? How many SCVs in total do you make?
We need actual testing. I will attempt this in a game against the computer but I can't see it being stable.
|
Mules mine independently from each other and every other mining unit, so there's no saturation point.
|
To Techno:
Oh it works alright, I would upload some replays if I wasn't too lazy.
|
On December 02 2010 17:39 30to1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 17:31 Shikyo wrote:This sound like an awesome strategy if you center it around a gigantic ~20 worker, 180 supply army 200/200 attack off 2 bases when maxed. So you basically skip workers for almost everything but gas and spam mules and get an insanely powerful max and then attack, and while attacking you can triple expand or something. So basically a great idea, I'd love to try this. On December 02 2010 17:30 theherder2 wrote:
I think that you're ignoring one of the essential timings to this, which is the time it takes to build a command center, especially your first one or two. Yes, the mules will pay for them later but you're leaving yourself a lot of timings in the early game when you are investing heavily in command centers to 1. get mules/workers 2. get supply. all those minerals could have gone to more barracks or more marines or both, so if a competent player sees this type of build, he can just rush you to death.
this is if you're cutting out all supply depots as said, so you're trying to build your first CC at 14 supply ish. Still this is me theorycrafting... so good luck with it! Meh, you can just do 1rax cc normally and build one extra depot. I think the advantage would max at around 12 minutes if its possible to get a ~3k income at 10 without getting killed. My first not shitty build had mined a total of 10,700 minerals at exactly 10 minutes, stopping CC production here and just spamming army/mule would mean around 16,000 minerals worth of crap at 12 minutes. That should honestly just be more than any other race can possibly handle.
I don't know..what are the odds you won't get rolled at all for 10 whole minutes....let alone 12.
|
this strategy is ONLY good if your attempting an allin. which nearly all terrans do every game these days so you got that goin for ya. but seriously your gonnna be a sad terran when your mined out of your main at the 8 minute mark and your zerg opponent is taking a third and preparing for a big allin push, that if held, is gg.
|
On December 02 2010 17:24 zeehar wrote:
don't command centers build much too slowly to keep up with the ramped up unit production you're meant to enjoy with this income?
yes they build very slowly, its also hard to wallin with them.
|
On December 04 2010 10:23 PartyBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 17:39 30to1 wrote:On December 02 2010 17:31 Shikyo wrote:This sound like an awesome strategy if you center it around a gigantic ~20 worker, 180 supply army 200/200 attack off 2 bases when maxed. So you basically skip workers for almost everything but gas and spam mules and get an insanely powerful max and then attack, and while attacking you can triple expand or something. So basically a great idea, I'd love to try this. On December 02 2010 17:30 theherder2 wrote:
I think that you're ignoring one of the essential timings to this, which is the time it takes to build a command center, especially your first one or two. Yes, the mules will pay for them later but you're leaving yourself a lot of timings in the early game when you are investing heavily in command centers to 1. get mules/workers 2. get supply. all those minerals could have gone to more barracks or more marines or both, so if a competent player sees this type of build, he can just rush you to death.
this is if you're cutting out all supply depots as said, so you're trying to build your first CC at 14 supply ish. Still this is me theorycrafting... so good luck with it! Meh, you can just do 1rax cc normally and build one extra depot. I think the advantage would max at around 12 minutes if its possible to get a ~3k income at 10 without getting killed. My first not shitty build had mined a total of 10,700 minerals at exactly 10 minutes, stopping CC production here and just spamming army/mule would mean around 16,000 minerals worth of crap at 12 minutes. That should honestly just be more than any other race can possibly handle. I don't know..what are the odds you won't get rolled at all for 10 whole minutes....let alone 12.
16 k worth of what? are you teching at all or just making pure marine?
|
So wait, let me get this straight. Your idea is to turtle in your main and build lots of Orbitals?.....
As a Zerg I fully support this idea, please give me the map so I can make a hatchery at every single expansion.
Honestly this is a terrible idea, I thought of this a while ago and yes it is cool but I deemed it not viable since to be able to hold off an attack you'd need PFs and Turrets, which means you're turtling in your base, which means the other player can just take the map.
1 base+mules < 3 bases saturated
Where do you even fit all your production buildings if you're making so many Orbitals and PFs on ONE base?
This might work in lower brackets where people don't just go "Oh hey, he gave me the map EXPAND!!!!", but in Diamond (or at least I know I've done this) when someone gives you the map and aren't massing a death ball, you get so far ahead it's ridiculous. So moral of the story is Turtling = Bad (unless it's to mass a death ball, even then not optimal but it's sometimes your only choice).
|
On December 03 2010 01:41 Sm3agol wrote:
Some of you people need to....ummmmmm, wake up? All you people bashing it are bashing it off of a pure no supply depot, no SCV build conception. If you mix it in gently with a more normal turtlish T build, I think it will do just fine. Obviously this is all still theory-crafting, but I think the concept has massive potential. Just do a more or less standard build, work in another CC or two into a normal build, turtle a bit more than usual, then when you get your massive mineral pile going start massing CCs, rax, marines, hellion, whatever eats through your minerals. Just because you have a crap ton of minerals doesn't mean you won't have any scvs mining gas or w/e. You'll just have a mega-ton of minerals. Build about 10 reactored rax mid-game, and start suiciding groups of 30 marines at his base every minute or so while your more normal army gets up to strength.
Sure it might not ever be a completely viable standard build, but if you play someone that you've played before in ladder and know he doesn't push early, or goes tech heavy, try it out. Marines are so ridiculously useful that your basically never going to be just "suiciding" them unless you're intentionally doing so.
Imagine having a typical TvX late macro game, only instead of 60 SCVs, and a 140 supply army, you have 18 SCVs on gas, 4-8 constantly building random buildings and random groups of 30 hellions/marines to do whatever the fark you want with while you still have your normal supply army out battling. And you don't care what happens to that 30 supply group, because you have more minerals than you can possibly use.
Now imagine a 2 v 2 ZT vs XX, where your teamate, the T, leaves, you go mass CC with his units while still building normal Z army. Also build an inbase hatch or three in every normal expo and extra queens so you can send a constant stream of zerglings off 9 hatcheries to your opponents base, lol. Imagine 300 strong army of zerglings popping out of your base every 30 seconds, lol.
/theory crafting
All-in-all, I don't see this being the end of supply depots or anything else drastic, but I definitely do see T late games transforming into mass CC/planetary to eat up minerals and free up supply.
i think the reason people are bashing it is because its just another fucked up way to allin as terran. also it would never fucking work against a decent zerg or toss. toss would just 4 gate and go fucking kill em and zerg only has to defend a push and then the terran is left on ONE mined out base. 0 minerals even with mules. now ill admit many zergs would probably die to the allin but if they dont suck and realize that all they have to do to win is hold off one push then ez pz.
|
On December 03 2010 01:41 Sm3agol wrote:
Some of you people need to....ummmmmm, wake up? All you people bashing it are bashing it off of a pure no supply depot, no SCV build conception. If you mix it in gently with a more normal turtlish T build, I think it will do just fine. Obviously this is all still theory-crafting, but I think the concept has massive potential. Just do a more or less standard build, work in another CC or two into a normal build, turtle a bit more than usual, then when you get your massive mineral pile going start massing CCs, rax, marines, hellion, whatever eats through your minerals. Just because you have a crap ton of minerals doesn't mean you won't have any scvs mining gas or w/e. You'll just have a mega-ton of minerals. Build about 10 reactored rax mid-game, and start suiciding groups of 30 marines at his base every minute or so while your more normal army gets up to strength.
Sure it might not ever be a completely viable standard build, but if you play someone that you've played before in ladder and know he doesn't push early, or goes tech heavy, try it out. Marines are so ridiculously useful that your basically never going to be just "suiciding" them unless you're intentionally doing so.
Imagine having a typical TvX late macro game, only instead of 60 SCVs, and a 140 supply army, you have 18 SCVs on gas, 4-8 constantly building random buildings and random groups of 30 hellions/marines to do whatever the fark you want with while you still have your normal supply army out battling. And you don't care what happens to that 30 supply group, because you have more minerals than you can possibly use.
Now imagine a 2 v 2 ZT vs XX, where your teamate, the T, leaves, you go mass CC with his units while still building normal Z army. Also build an inbase hatch or three in every normal expo and extra queens so you can send a constant stream of zerglings off 9 hatcheries to your opponents base, lol. Imagine 300 strong army of zerglings popping out of your base every 30 seconds, lol.
/theory crafting
All-in-all, I don't see this being the end of supply depots or anything else drastic, but I definitely do see T late games transforming into mass CC/planetary to eat up minerals and free up supply.
i think the reason people are bashing it is because its just another fucked up way to allin as terran.
also it would never fucking work against a decent zerg or toss. toss would just 4 gate and go fucking kill em and zerg only has to defend a push and then the terran is left on ONE mined out base. 0 minerals even with mules.
third reason is because its all theory craft. even the garbage you spouted out about having a terran go mass cc and you stream a constant 300 army of lings is theory craft and it just wouldnt work. lings arnt even that good. you cant have a 300 army of them and even if you did a 50 supply army of hellions would rape them to pieces. people talk about mules like they are free money when in reality they are just fast money. they dont actually grant you anything extra just let you get whats already yours faster.
fourth your trying to hard to play terran like zerg. expanding a ton on the same 8 patch mineral line.
|
|
|
On December 04 2010 09:58 mlbrandow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 09:56 Conrose wrote:
What would be hilarious is floating several CC's to the enemy choke at midgame and PFing right outside their Natural.
I'm going to experiment with doing a Supply>CC>Enginering>PF opening as a means to block off your Ramp and beat back early pushes before going for the OC's. You can't convert an OC into a PF, so what you're proposing is actually completely different from what's being discussed in this thread.
Read it again, I said "CC", not "OC" when talking about floating into enemy chokes.
Anyways, I was able to wall off with a Rax, CC and starting the Engineering Bay at 3:45, but I was putting out the SCV's pretty heavily at the beginning. The PF was finished at 6:01.
I'm only bronze level so I'm certain a better player could pull the start off faster.
|
why are people talking about turtling in main and mining out where you can float OCs all over the map... its high risk high reward
|
Mistakes that made it easier for you, thus making this strat not suck enormously.
Zerg went Hatch first against Two Barracks.
Zerg used all his larvae on drones and had none, 0, when his Spawning Pool finished.
Zerg made a banelings nest and more drones instead of Zerglings, even AFTER he saw you were pushing out.
Zerg had an overlord in front of his natural.
Zerg let you kill his main base queen (no creep between main and natural).
Zerg tried to do a bling+ling bust and failed, he then made 12 drones with all his larvae, except 1.
Zerg doesn't have Zergling speed (got it at 16:01!) and only got Baneling speed 14:06 minutes into the game.
Zerg knew you were on two base and took a third really late.
Zerg let your factory sit at his front and kept his entire army there visible to it (wtf?! lol).
Zerg had no map knowledge.
Zerg had a third building when yours had just landed.
Zerg never changed his strategy, it was BANELING+LING BUST!!! into BANELING+ROACH BUST!!!! into SAME ONE AS BEFORE!!!!
Zerg sucked extremely hard.
It really makes me sad that Amok is ranked 12 in his Diamond league.
The second replay.
What's with your marine spreading? You're making it so Zerg doesn't have to fight a bioball, which makes it extremely easy for them. The point of splitting is to let a few marines die while the rest kill banelings before they get close enough to hurt them. Pretty much if you're not killing the banelings and just letting them explode on single marines than the Zerglings become the thing that are very cost effective against pure marine. So spreading that much becomes moot. Just saying.
Zerg had no creep between his main and natural till 11 minutes into the game (not huge, but both spine crawlers could've been at the front choke instead of at separate bases, add to that if you got a Banshee his other Queen would have never made it in time).
Zerg built two spine crawlers for no apparent reason (spine crawlers build in 50 seconds, it took you from the time you left your base at 6:06 till 7:05 to be at the zergs ramp).
Zerg went Spire without having any idea what you were doing besides the one built barracks and the second building barracks he scouted in the beginning.
Zerg didn't scout as often as he should have, he had overlords in place but didn't use them, nor did he ever research overlord speed.
Zerg had his third at the gold finish at 11:30 and only started using it at 13:25, but he never transfered he just built a few drones, the base never was even at 16 drones the entire game.Add to that he used two of the three drones to make extractors that he never used.
Zerg rallied up units to his main/natural choke in plain sight of you making it obvious he had a third.
Zerg was behind or barely ahead in workers (only by a few) the entire game. At the end of the game he had 37 to your 59.
Zerg let you kill 5 mutalisks that were just afking in your base.
Zerg had only one unit upgrade (armor/weapon) which was for Muta air attack against your Marine only army...... *sighs*.
Zerg had 2825 minerals and 1110 gas at 16:50 into the game, let's just go with his mechanics suck.
This Zerg is ranked 28th in his Diamond League.
Pretty much you're winning these because you're better than they are. The build in my opinion is very bad and has too much investment at too large an amount before actually benefiting you, meaning you're behind till a bit after it starts benefiting you.
|
Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
I think a lot of you are missing the point - don't take this as "spawn...make rax, make orbitals, win game". Thats not whats important. What is important is the idea that at certain safe timings, you could add extra OCs (after destroying enemy army when you'd normally expand?) and get a larger advantage.
Very interested to see what top level players can do with this idea.
|
I've found that 4 Thorship Cannons more or less insta-kills Hatcheries while 2 Instakills most zerg tech buildings, think that could be incorporated into this build?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
