EPT[D] The new Zerg standard for all match-ups? - Page 41
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fishinguy
Russian Federation798 Posts
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On December 11 2010 17:51 jacobman wrote: It's okay. Admittedly the AI does a really good job playing the builds because it does execute many actions right when the opportunity is available. So even though it has really low APM, it is really precise with its actions. However I do believe it is possible to replicate the results if you really put some effort into it. Also my AI doesn't do any of the fancy drone splitting or sending drones to particular mineral patches in the beginning. This. The APM had to be turned up so high to prevent the AI from having delays that a normal player wouldn't have, and to try to avoid inconsistencies in the results, which as I've mentioned, can be caused by what might seem like very small differences. Now that the AI has shown that it is possible for 13pool to be superior economically to 11pool, I'm pretty confident that with enough practice, a human could execute the build in such a way that it would surpass jd's original 11pool replay post, and that his execution of the 11pool was simply a lot better than his execution of the 13pool. All I'm trying to demonstrate here is that the OP's claims that 11pool is *the most* economical pool-first build are false, or at least questionable, so that we can start talking about whether the sacrifice is worthwhile. Personally I believe it definitely can be, and that there are a lot of advantages to 11pool vs 13 or 14pooling, and realistically, the sacrifice isn't that much. You do have to be able to recognize that there is actually a sacrifice going on though, no matter how small it is. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
It is possible with the 11pool build to fit in a spine crawler at the main, that is ready in time to root at the expansion as soon as the hatchery completes. The positioning won't be ideal, because you probably don't have time to wait for the hatchery creep to extend as far as it can, but it would certainly be worth testing. | ||
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TehForce
1072 Posts
On December 12 2010 00:20 jdseemoreglass wrote: I wonder if he actually experienced this or if he is repeating the analysis that's been repeated before lol... I have had trouble understanding this argument since it began. In every 2rax push I have ever seen, zerg never gets the opportunity to finish a spine in time to defend. I've been asking for replays or VODS of this, but I haven't found them. Without having a spine crawler as defense, then a hatch first build will need exactly the same number of lings as a pool first in order to defend. The notion that for some reason you pump lings until you are 10 drones behind is an assumption I cannot make without actually seeing it in action. The notion that a bunkered ramp is more difficult to hold off with an earlier pool doesn't make much sense to me either. I know ret and Idra are being used as the basis for all of these claims, but they sound like really broken theorycraft arguments. If anyone has seen a single game where this theory was actually encountered, I would love to see it. In general, the notion that Terran can produce workers and units simultaneously and the Zerg is forced to produce 100% units in reaction would indicate the game is impossibly broken. I don't think this is the case though. i actually have experienced this -.- just because you don't like my conclusion you don't have to imply that i am lying. i practiced 11 pool, 18 hatch and 14 hatch with a friend of mine and in my opinion 11 pool just sets you behind if the terran goes for 2rax. The reasons i stated above. I could even send you replays but why should i put more effort in this than you. You obviously didnt tested the build, instead you say "well I THINK THAT!!! SO IT IS!!!" | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On December 12 2010 05:28 TehForce wrote: i actually have experienced this -.- just because you don't like my conclusion you don't have to imply that i am lying. i practiced 11 pool, 18 hatch and 14 hatch with a friend of mine and in my opinion 11 pool just sets you behind if the terran goes for 2rax. The reasons i stated above. I could even send you replays but why should i put more effort in this than you. You obviously didnt tested the build, instead you say "well I THINK THAT!!! SO IT IS!!!" There are plenty of people in this thread (myself included) who would very much appreciate you posting replays of 11pool having trouble against 2rax, to either figure out ways to improve, or at the very least recognize that it is a very real problem that my prevent the build from being used against terrans. So if you have any replays of this, or wouldn't mind generating some, it would be greatly appreciated. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
For example, if the attack definitely comes before the hatchery is even finished, then that would definitely be an issue. But if the attack simply comes before a spine crawler could be finished, that might possibly be mitigated by starting the crawler at the main and then moving it down to the expansion. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On December 12 2010 05:41 Skrag wrote: Anybody have links to replays of the 2rax pressure build, or know at what time the first attack happens and how many units it includes? Some of the questions could be answered if I just knew what time the first attack happened and how strong it was. For example, if the attack definitely comes before the hatchery is even finished, then that would definitely be an issue. But if the attack simply comes before a spine crawler could be finished, that might possibly be mitigated by starting the crawler at the main and then moving it down to the expansion. I don't think the first attack is the issue. From what I've gathered it's the constant pressure after that first attack. So it's really about the production more than the speed you get the lings out. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On December 12 2010 05:41 Skrag wrote: Anybody have links to replays of the 2rax pressure build, or know at what time the first attack happens and how many units it includes? Some of the questions could be answered if I just knew what time the first attack happened and how strong it was. For example, if the attack definitely comes before the hatchery is even finished, then that would definitely be an issue. But if the attack simply comes before a spine crawler could be finished, that might possibly be mitigated by starting the crawler at the main and then moving it down to the expansion. You can watch GSL games, TSL Rain vs NesTea and mvp vs idra had plenty of 2rax action. I just played a game on metalopolis close positions and 4 marines attacked my spine crawler that was about halfway done. I started it asap with a 14h/15p BO, I don't know of any other way to get it down faster. Needless to say he got a bunker down and managed to kill my half-dead re-rooting spine crawler. It's a fucking nasty BO to hold off and it makes me want to drone rush ZvT on close positions. 4 marines came in at 4:30. here's the rep ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-173130.jpg) | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On December 12 2010 06:12 Dragar wrote: First marine leaves at 3.30, and 4 marines built in total at 4.05 with a bunker underway. Ouch. The nice thing is that he expands as he screws me over with units that are worth 300 minerals + salvageable bunkers, while also getting Mules for more marine SCV goodness  | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
On December 12 2010 05:41 Skrag wrote: Anybody have links to replays of the 2rax pressure build, or know at what time the first attack happens and how many units it includes? Some of the questions could be answered if I just knew what time the first attack happened and how strong it was. For example, if the attack definitely comes before the hatchery is even finished, then that would definitely be an issue. But if the attack simply comes before a spine crawler could be finished, that might possibly be mitigated by starting the crawler at the main and then moving it down to the expansion. the attack does come before an 18 hatch is finished. a spine in your main does nothing because it can be avoided. also moving spines during the attack is a quick way to lose. you hvae to fight by the spine. if they attack it u move in with lings, if they focus lings let the spine do some work. its the only way to cost effectively beat a 2rax rush. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On December 12 2010 06:28 Vaporized wrote: the attack does come before an 18 hatch is finished. a spine in your main does nothing because it can be avoided. also moving spines during the attack is a quick way to lose. you hvae to fight by the spine. if they attack it u move in with lings, if they focus lings let the spine do some work. its the only way to cost effectively beat a 2rax rush. If the attack comes at 4:30, the hatchery should be *very* close to finished, with the spine crawler in place and ready to plant as soon as it does. That might be cutting the timing way too close though, and the marines could simply go to your main and avoid the crawler entirely. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On December 12 2010 07:00 Skrag wrote: If the attack comes at 4:30, the hatchery should be *very* close to finished, with the spine crawler in place and ready to plant as soon as it does. That might be cutting the timing way too close though, and the marines could simply go to your main and avoid the crawler entirely. It's just impossible to hold with pool first. The first 2 marines come at 4.05 the 18 hatch is 35 seconds away from being done (assuming it wasn't blocked which any good T will do vs such a late hatch). He the pushes the couple of lings back into the main (because they are half-dead if they even try to attack a single marine) while spamming bunkers around your ramp + hatch. Now you can send your drones to take out the SCVs making the bunkers. He then proceeds to set his remaining SCVs on auto repair while microing his marines so they dont die. In the meantime more marines arrive / bunkers finish etc. If you somehow magically get a spine up he can still find an odd angle / walk into your main etc. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
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Pwere
Canada1556 Posts
Then taking your natural will be almost impossible; you would need some sort of hidden drone to take a random hidden expo... Does not sound solid at all. | ||
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CapnAmerica
United States508 Posts
The second hatchery doesn't pay off until later in the game... a creep tumor so you could position spines at your main and then expand later would've probably been a lot more effective assuming he didn't bunker up your ramp. That said, getting a bunker on a zerg ramp would be ridiculously hard with creep spread if lings were outside of the base to begin with. I think people are approaching the whole "but if I do x, he'll do y!" thing too head-on. For instance, in the replay, the player loses a ton of drones to marines that are needed to maintain production. Using a queen to stall vs 1 or 2 marines would've been his only option -- as soon as he advanced back to the second bunker he got crushed by bunkered marines. I really think the best way to counter that 2rax rush (the way it hit ChickenLips) is to have a forward overlord and 4 lings out to scout the bunker placement and stop the first bunker. As long as it's outside of attacking distance for your nat, you should be okay. Feel free to take this with a grain of salt, as I'm Gold, but I would've countered that rush (the way the marines reinforced and took that position with the bunker) that way if I had seen the early bunker placement. ---- Also, where people are complaining here about how you're "behind" if you have to make units.. if you can deal damage with those units or pressure the opponent into making missteps, it doesn't matter if you're at a bit of an economic disadvantage. For instance, you could respond to that pressure (once you've stalled it) with Roaches and if you rout the attack deal some damage to supply depots or make the opponent's expansion incredibly risky. Even a few units to snipe can be highly effective if microed properly. -- And, finally, what if you let yourself take an economic hit and use your very early queen to spread creep? Two tumors on meta and you've got your natural creeped up before a bunker rush could hit it. | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
On December 12 2010 05:56 ChickenLips wrote: You can watch GSL games, TSL Rain vs NesTea and mvp vs idra had plenty of 2rax action. I just played a game on metalopolis close positions and 4 marines attacked my spine crawler that was about halfway done. I started it asap with a 14h/15p BO, I don't know of any other way to get it down faster. Needless to say he got a bunker down and managed to kill my half-dead re-rooting spine crawler. It's a fucking nasty BO to hold off and it makes me want to drone rush ZvT on close positions. 4 marines came in at 4:30. here's the rep Your description is misleading. He didn't have a bunker near your base -- it wasn't even near enough to cover his attempt to build one near your base! You got a Spine Crawler at your natural without any real problem, but then decided to uproot it so you could charge 6 Marines with 3 Zerglings and an uprooted Spine Crawler (while having plenty of unspent minerals and larvae).  | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On December 02 2010 09:03 Skrag wrote: I think you can squeeze one drone in between those overlords, but you end up building a lot of stuff in a very short period of time right around that area (queen + stuff from a queen larva spawn), so you do actually need the overlords pretty close. I've been intuitively getting two ovies at 16. I think it was triggered by a game I watched by Fruitdealer. There was a lack of larvae while I was waiting for my spawning pool to pop, and new I wanted to have as much supply as possible when my queen popped so i can make mass lings if I scouted some kind of all-in-ish-ness. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On December 12 2010 08:35 Hurkyl wrote: Your description is misleading. He didn't have a bunker near your base -- it wasn't even near enough to cover his attempt to build one near your base! You got a Spine Crawler at your natural without any real problem, but then decided to uproot it so you could charge 6 Marines with 3 Zerglings and an uprooted Spine Crawler (while having plenty of unspent minerals and larvae). I didn't scout the bunker and when i saw it i immediately gave up any hope on winning that game. Terran in such close positions + a finished bunker puts you behind indefinitely. Terran just kills a lot shit, forces an incredibly high number of zerglings and then hits a 2base timing at 8 to 9 minutes with stim and combat shields done. I should've stalled put my drones back on mining etc. but I really couldn't be arsed at that point. It's more of a replay on what not to do vs 2rax. I just posted it so skrag could figure out the timings. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
13p/15h finishes the hatch soon enough that it might be more viable though, although I don't know if it's actually possible to get a crawler in the main fast enough with that build. I was able to with 11pool, but haven't tried with 13. This does seem pretty nasty. On the other hand, this 2rax pressure seems *very* scoutable, unless they hide a rax, and I think there are some things that could be done differently no matter what start you choose to combat it. For example, as much as I absolutely *hate* to even suggest it, because I think it's absolutely horrible most of the time, if you started 11pool and scouted 2 rax, that might be a case where a second in-base hatch could be worthwhile, allowing you to produce both drones and lings, as well as defend a lot easier from the top of the ramp. What I'm not sure of is if the second rax has to go down before you decide where to place the hatch, and if you can scout it in time. | ||
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It's just I had read in this thread and previous ones discussing the 11p/18h the need for rallying individual drones to certain mineral patches and splitting them correctly and doing all this (seemingly) complex stuff...and for a player who is just not that good (myself!) - I just want the best economic build that is also safe. Without having to execute tons of mechanical actions that will probably cause me to forget the actual steps of the build I'm executing. And so I wasn't positive this was possible with normal players and not perfect AI. If I'm wrong - awesome. I've got a new favorite build.
