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One thing to note with hatch first builds you build the crawler at the expansion, where as with a pool first you build the crawler at the main and transfer it to the natural. When a spine crawler is building it doesn't have its armor so marine shots do 6 damage to a building crawler, where as a built crawler has 2 armor so a marine shots do 4 damage to a burrowing crawler. This seems pretty big and as I said a few pages back you can get a crawler down faster at your natural with the 13p15 hatch build (4:22) than either the 11p18h (4:44) or the 14h build (4:27) and you get the armor benefit. 11overpool seems misplaced in zvt but seems much stronger in the zvp and zvz.
Note these timings are based on simple math, there might be some slight discrepancies in practice.
I'd like to know which is the most economic opener when you have to wait for a spine crawler to kill a pylon block before expanding, it should be the earlier pool right as all your early larva will come from one hatch and a queen inject? The theory craft in me suggests that if you 11 overpool and get pylon blocked at your ramp you should just drone up and spine crawler the top of your ramp to kill the cannon and then expand. When I've been cannon rushing 11 overpoolers like this where they aren't saving larva they've been making lings and trying to break out with lings and drones and the cannons are always up in time. I think if they were calmer and took it in stride knowing they are free to drone as no early gateway pressure is coming they could break out with the spine and expand ending up in a good position. Would love to test this.
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I was able to with 11pool, but haven't tried with 13.
13 gives you a fairly lovely timing to get the spine down while banking money at 18/18 supply, letting you squeeze another drone out. It finishes nearly bang on time to walk down and burrow as the hatch pops.
I haven't checked the timing for when marines arrive though.
Do burrowing (as opposed to building) crawlers not benefit from armour? Interesting.
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On December 12 2010 11:33 Dragar wrote:
Do burrowing (as opposed to building) crawlers not benefit from armour? Interesting.
To be clear burrowing crawlers DO get 2 armor, building crawlers DO NOT get 2 armor.
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Ah, good. That makes more sense.
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On December 12 2010 11:39 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2010 11:33 Dragar wrote:
Do burrowing (as opposed to building) crawlers not benefit from armour? Interesting. To be clear burrowing crawlers DO get 2 armor, building crawlers DO NOT get 2 armor.
Hmm. Somebody was talking about 11pool 15hatch or 16hatch or something. I wonder how much of a sacrifice you have to make to get the hatch out faster, and if you can scout 2rax soon enough to actually do it as a response. If the sacrifice is too big, or the timings don't work, 13pool is probably actually safer against terran than 11pool.
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There's little point going 11 pool versus Terran at all Skrag, as you note. Hatch first is safer and more economical.
Against protoss it's really nice on small maps, being invulnerable to pylon blocks at the natural and able to take down a forge FE. Timings are iffy for avoiding a double pylon and cannon contain at the ramp, but I think there may be time if spot the first pylon going up down there, and spam lings.
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On December 12 2010 12:14 Dragar wrote:
There's little point going 11 pool versus Terran at all Skrag, as you note. Hatch first is safer and more economical.
Against protoss it's really nice on small maps, being invulnerable to pylon blocks at the natural and able to take down a forge FE. Timings are iffy for avoiding a double pylon and cannon contain at the ramp, but I think there may be time if spot the first pylon going up down there, and spam lings.
Is it *really* safer if the crawler can't get up in time though? An earlier pool would let you get a crawler in place faster by building it at the main and moving it to the expansion.
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I did something similar to this build in this game, worked pretty well. Terran goes Mech all-in.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-173207.jpg)
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On December 12 2010 12:35 vdek wrote:I did something similar to this build in this game, worked pretty well.
At first I was disappointed to see this wasn't a 2rax rep... But the game was so epic I stopped caring lol...
Nice win. I can't wait for them to change that repair mechanic.
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Well, I personally have had no trouble beating 2rax with the 11Pool. Honestly, it feels like an auto-win. I can get plenty of lings out early, and instead of regretting that they aren't drones, I enjoy the fact that I can take complete control of the map and usually deny the Terran an expansion after fending off the attack. If the Terran insists on expanding and trying to get a macro advantage, I've had no trouble using my speedlings, banelings, and production capacity to bust the expansion.
I really wish the people who are having trouble with 2rax would post the reps... it would help the conversation immensely and change it from theory and hearsay to actual data we can analyze.
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On December 12 2010 12:57 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2010 12:35 vdek wrote:
I did something similar to this build in this game, worked pretty well.
At first I was disappointed to see this wasn't a 2rax rep... But the game was so epic I stopped caring lol... Nice win. I can't wait for them to change that repair mechanic.
Thanks, I was actually scared for a moment there before I decided to go all in with my drones. That was a Hail Mary there. Repair was pretty OP though, I was doing my best to try to focus fire down the SCVs.
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If anyone is watching Sen's stream, he is doing something remotely similar to this build vs P:
10 Extractor Trick
12 Pool
15 Gas
15 Overlord
15 Lings
16 Queen
--> then baneling nest without speed and tries to bust the Protoss FE. Quite fun to watch^^
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On December 12 2010 13:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Well, I personally have had no trouble beating 2rax with the 11Pool. Honestly, it feels like an auto-win. I can get plenty of lings out early, and instead of regretting that they aren't drones, I enjoy the fact that I can take complete control of the map and usually deny the Terran an expansion after fending off the attack. If the Terran insists on expanding and trying to get a macro advantage, I've had no trouble using my speedlings, banelings, and production capacity to bust the expansion.
I really wish the people who are having trouble with 2rax would post the reps... it would help the conversation immensely and change it from theory and hearsay to actual data we can analyze.
That rep isn't representative of anything. The terran could've won that game at any point in the 3:00 to 5:00 range by just building bunkers or microing his marines. He sadly decided to do neither and you still entered the mid-game at a severe disadvantage (same worker count, same base count, no tech to show for it) and managed to edge out an advantage because of his abysmal mid-game and inability to fend off a simple eco baneling bust.
If he at any point puts down 3 bunkers in your natural there is NOTHING you can do as the marines shred your workers while they do their buggy pathfinding around the bunkers.
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The build has one big weakness. Thats Before you get your expansion, after you get the queen. Having no supply left will leave you very weak to any form of attack or harassment. Even to Expansion Blocking. So it should be at least
15 Zergling
16 Queen
18 Expand.
Someone who knows the timing of this build can beat you with a 7 or 8 Pool.
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How much is this build effecteted economically if you scout at 11 vs scouting at some other point with 14 hatch 15 expand?
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On December 12 2010 21:36 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2010 13:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Well, I personally have had no trouble beating 2rax with the 11Pool. Honestly, it feels like an auto-win. I can get plenty of lings out early, and instead of regretting that they aren't drones, I enjoy the fact that I can take complete control of the map and usually deny the Terran an expansion after fending off the attack. If the Terran insists on expanding and trying to get a macro advantage, I've had no trouble using my speedlings, banelings, and production capacity to bust the expansion.
I really wish the people who are having trouble with 2rax would post the reps... it would help the conversation immensely and change it from theory and hearsay to actual data we can analyze. That rep isn't representative of anything. The terran could've won that game at any point in the 3:00 to 5:00 range by just building bunkers or microing his marines. He sadly decided to do neither and you still entered the mid-game at a severe disadvantage (same worker count, same base count, no tech to show for it) and managed to edge out an advantage because of his abysmal mid-game and inability to fend off a simple eco baneling bust. If he at any point puts down 3 bunkers in your natural there is NOTHING you can do as the marines shred your workers while they do their buggy pathfinding around the bunkers.
I never said the rep was representative of anything. I said I've had no trouble at all consistently beating 2rax with 11Pool in the diamond league. The theorycrafting is simply that until we get a single game as evidence. We can exchange baseless claims all day long.
I personally find it hilarious that a couple pros say "if you do X, then Y will happen" and immediately afterwords my thread is filled with people saying "I tried to do X, but Y happened," but they for some reason refuse to post a single game showing how Y happened.
I don't mean to be a jackass or anything, I am just a naturally skeptical person and I tend to reject claims without evidence that contradict what I've seen with my own eyes. I'm not sure why people would not want to bolster their argument with actual evidence, so I tend to conclude they likely don't have the evidence and are simply parroting what they heard from a pro.
People will take my skepticism as fanaticism, or take it as me being as asshole... Honestly I'm just trying to protect the integrity and the quality of this thread. Once someone provides something we can actually see and work with, then we can continue the debate regarding 2rax pressure.
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Ok, I used this in a few games, and I now swear by this build. With it I was able to successfully hold of a zealot rush into viod rays, a 6 pool, and against someone who was 14 pooling or 15 hatching I got them to completely turtle up, build an extra hachery and 3 spine crawlers in their main, and literally poop their pants thinking I was going to ten pool them while I comfortably took my natural at 18. It was beautiful and sad to see the thought process of my zerg opponent unfold so predictably before my eyes, turtling, realizing the attack wasn't coming, attacking and being driven off, franticly trying to transition to mutas and being beat to the punch, leaving them with literally no options and quiting. Thank you so much for this contribution. I only hope other zerg players will keep using the `14 pool 15 hatch build for a little longer so I can wield this weighty advantage  .
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On December 12 2010 11:20 Jaeger wrote:
One thing to note with hatch first builds you build the crawler at the expansion, where as with a pool first you build the crawler at the main and transfer it to the natural. When a spine crawler is building it doesn't have its armor so marine shots do 6 damage to a building crawler, where as a built crawler has 2 armor so a marine shots do 4 damage to a burrowing crawler. This seems pretty big and as I said a few pages back you can get a crawler down faster at your natural with the 13p15 hatch build (4:22) than either the 11p18h (4:44) or the 14h build (4:27) and you get the armor benefit. 11overpool seems misplaced in zvt but seems much stronger in the zvp and zvz.
Note these timings are based on simple math, there might be some slight discrepancies in practice.
I'd like to know which is the most economic opener when you have to wait for a spine crawler to kill a pylon block before expanding, it should be the earlier pool right as all your early larva will come from one hatch and a queen inject? The theory craft in me suggests that if you 11 overpool and get pylon blocked at your ramp you should just drone up and spine crawler the top of your ramp to kill the cannon and then expand. When I've been cannon rushing 11 overpoolers like this where they aren't saving larva they've been making lings and trying to break out with lings and drones and the cannons are always up in time. I think if they were calmer and took it in stride knowing they are free to drone as no early gateway pressure is coming they could break out with the spine and expand ending up in a good position. Would love to test this.
In theory if you halted the cannon at the front and the protoss abondoned it, couldnt you simply overload carry a drone and expand at a natural anyway? If not at a natural then the next closes expansion?
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On December 12 2010 13:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:
I really wish the people who are having trouble with 2rax would post the reps... it would help the conversation immensely and change it from theory and hearsay to actual data we can analyze.
I agree with this. There are a lot of people saying "you'll get crushed by a 2rax build" but nobody posting reps of the build having trouble against 2rax. Post the reps, so we can figure out if there's a solution to the perceived problem.
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2 rax doesn't sacrifice any terran economy except for a slightly later orbital (by like 1 SCV.)
In order to keep up with the marine production of 2 rax you need to build only lings from 1 hatchery, so terran gets ahead in SCVs by a ton. then they'll push with a good amount of scvs right before your first larva injection turns into lings, and block your ramp with bunkers, and that's pretty much game.
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EPT
