EPTEdit: Sorry I'm not a big forum guy so my post looks pretty messy
Help with ZvZ!!
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
justindab0mb
United States213 Posts
Edit: Sorry I'm not a big forum guy so my post looks pretty messy | ||
|
dbosworld
United States317 Posts
Mass Lings and/or Banelings? Roaches with a dash of Banelings Mutas? Roach/Hydra infestor Roaches? Make more roaches, add spine crawlers. Punish Fast expanding zergs with speedling counter or roaches. Don't FE. | ||
|
TheHedonist
54 Posts
On ladder play, pool before hatch, ALWAYS. I don't even bother expanding unless my army is stronger (better unit composition or higher supply due to me winning a battle) or I see them expand. If they expand too quickly, then play VERY aggressively and push hard. 1 base muta is just bad. Fast muta and their roach or sling/bling army will decimate your base, mass muta and by the time you have a critical number they'll be rolling out infestors or hydras (or god forbid, both). | ||
|
Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On November 10 2010 06:55 TheHedonist wrote: On ladder play, pool before hatch, ALWAYS. I don't even bother expanding unless my army is stronger (better unit composition or higher supply due to me winning a battle) or I see them expand. If they expand too quickly, then play VERY aggressively and push hard. I do almost the opposite, actually. I always scout on 9, and if they made their pool at a standard timing (13 or 14) or haven't made their pool yet when I get there, I hatch first every time. It works better on some maps than others, but for now I haven't ruled out any maps. edit: oh, and the counter to 1base muta is 3+ queens into a few hydras and infestors. | ||
|
OoOo
Germany126 Posts
the most important thing in zvz is larva in every other matchup you dont realy have to care as much about your lava but in zvz its one of the most important limeting factors, because the amount of larva both players have is the same. so especially in earlygame you should watch it a few other realy important aspekts in zvz are: -upgrades: an army can be segnificantly smaler (espcially if both go roach/hydra) and still the upgraded army wins -infestors: they are highly efficient against every zergunit: lings,bainlings,roach and mutas can be sniped from out of range or in a realy nice concarve if yu use them right. hydralisk realy suffer the dmg from fungal groth and in lategame its realy nice to use infested terrans to block ultralisks from getting to your army -if you dont have equal bases, you have kind of lost exept you attack with a realy good timing. -gas is the most important limeting factor, so you can just spam some lings if you have extra larva and overminerals -t3 realy rapes all zergunits: the only real way to deal with ultralisks are hydralisk, and quite a lot the only way to deal with a good broodlord are mutalisk and coruptors sadly, since hydras cant realy be used offcreep in quite a few situations to kill them and creep^^ it shortens the distances between every location my personal rule for creep is: always between my bases if i go hydralisks i get creep (if my enemy goes not) if both players get hydralisks i often use overlords so i can retread and my enemy doesnt get the advantage if he attacks but its quite hard to do^^ | ||
|
Secret05
United States342 Posts
| ||
|
nigritude
83 Posts
| ||
|
CheezDip
126 Posts
On November 10 2010 07:28 Secret05 wrote: ZvZ is stupid right now in my opinion. I'm currently a 1600 diamond zerg and I win just about every zvp and zvt, but can't win any zvz's. I just lost 5 zvz's in a row and every time the other zerg just massed lings. Is zvz just mass lings? I even knew he was going mass lings and countered with like 16 lings and 2 spine crawlers but still got destroyed. I'm not really sure what I'm doing wrong with zvz, but if someone could post a replay or something that'd be awesome. The obvious answer to mass lings would be banelings, but if your base is blocked up nicely with buildings or you're on a map with a small ramp/choke, roaches are fine at holding off mass lings. Mass lings tend to be especially common on maps with naturals that don't share a mutual defense with the main (scrap station), or are especially open (delta, xel'naga). In such a case, a person might be using mass lings simply to control the map so they can be the ones to expo and gain the economic advantage. In that situation I'll tend to turtle or block ramp with roaches then get banelings, do a timing attack of roach+bane. Be sure to keep a couple banelings in your minerals when you move out, because he will definitely go for a run-by. | ||
|
achacttn
Australia82 Posts
-If they go mass speedlings, you go banelings (even throw down a spine since they have a window where they can attack you and you don't have enough forces as him) -If they go baneligns, you go roach -If they go roach, you go mass speedlings I think that is the general thing to do. I generally dislike attacking with roaches, since lings so cost-effectively deal with them, and get owned by roaches. Speedlings also give you map control. I will generally expand quite early against a Zerg going roaches, since you can get the expo up with a couple spines, as well as a healthy set of zerglings to defend his push (roaches take ages to walk their ass over to your base). Sometimes, I go corruptors since a lot zergs... rush muta >_<, and then when they also get corruptors, I just mass roach and lings and a move to victory. I'm sorry, I have no real CLEAR answer, but I like to play a lot of mind games and do a lot of tech switches in my ZvZs. | ||
|
whomybuddy
United States620 Posts
......Roaches is pretty much it. If you can mass enough roaches to defend and the other guy go for mass roaches like you, you'll likely win with 1-2 crawlers. ........Key is scout. opt that your opponent will go are 1 base all in roaches/slings/bling.[ If you can expand, putting crawlers and having roaches to defend through it, you'll win] ....1 base some roaches/slings/bling/crawler for protect and go lair tech to muta.[ you have to scout for this, either destroy him with all in, or tech a bit slower than him but with better eco to hydra or infestors, you'll win when you push out with army of many roaches and hydra instead of sitting in your base waiting for mass muta harass] ...........some raocches/slings/bling/crawler with expand[ you are safe to expand just like him, start think about mid game macro game] | ||
|
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
I used to despise ZvZ but now when I see it I am happy for the free victory. I've literally won the last 12 ZvZ games I've played doing a very simple roach/hydra timing push. I have many, many replays of this strategy stomping every other. Basic plan is this: 14 pool, about 16 gas, with an instant roach warren as soon as pool is done. Get enough roaches to completely block your ramp from ling/bling cheese, then drone hard. Take a second base once you are saturated and have enough roaches to defend a more open natural. If you scout or suspect mutas, get a few spores to defend your workers. Add hydras into your mix. Keep pumping roach/hydra until your +2 attack +2 carapace upgrades are done, then 1a your way to victory. A maxed or near/maxed roach/hydra army is unstoppable. This build CRUSHES roach/infestor play, muta/ling/bling (assuming you can micro your hydras away from the banelings), etc. The only way I ever lose ZvZ now is either some kind of early all-in cheese rush or a better executed roach/hydra build. Source: Zerg player ranked #637 in North America with an 80%+ win ratio against zerg. | ||
|
Hurkyl
304 Posts
 The Zerg vs Zerg meta-game starts with mass lings. You only have two options: *: Out-ling them, e.g. by having more, upgrades, speed, or better tactics. *: Build to defend an early rush and produce a strong counter. The big thing to understand is that, against lings, you have to fight tooth and nail just for the right to build a few extra drones. You can't afford a laid back attitude about it, unless you know your opponent is going to be passive. Banelings add another wrinkle; they are cheap enough you can get them without much trouble, and just having a single one represents a major threat to the enemy zerglings! Alas I haven't played the match-up enough to really understand zergling/baneling vs zergling/baneling, but the battles seem to be somewhat less razor-edge than pure zerglings and it gives me some peace of mind. If you don't want to play the mass zergling game or the baneling game, I've seen people have some success with blocking a ramp with zerglings / queens and mixing in spines. Of course, you can't afford to skimp on your defenses against a large zergling mass and you still have to be careful of banelings. Some people swear by fast roaches, but I've been unimpressed -- my zergling pressure usually comes before my opponent has more than one or two roaches, making them nothing but an expensive speed-bump. I tend to aim for mutalisk tech; if you survive until then, you are finally well-protected against zerglings, so long as you don't completely neglect the threat they represent. You always have to be wary of a large zergling force going where your mutas aren't currently at. I don't particularly like switching to roach/hydra, and I haven't played against it enough to really have any thoughts on its effectiveness. | ||
|
TheAngelofDeath
United States2033 Posts
On November 10 2010 07:56 jdseemoreglass wrote: Guys I want you to know that ZvZ doesn't have to be cheesy or coinflippy... (coinflippy?) I used to despise ZvZ but now when I see it I am happy for the free victory. I've literally won the last 12 ZvZ games I've played doing a very simple roach/hydra timing push. I have many, many replays of this strategy stomping every other. Basic plan is this: 14 pool, about 16 gas, with an instant roach warren as soon as pool is done. Get enough roaches to completely block your ramp from ling/bling cheese, then drone hard. Take a second base once you are saturated and have enough roaches to defend a more open natural. If you scout or suspect mutas, get a few spores to defend your workers. Add hydras into your mix. Keep pumping roach/hydra until your +2 attack +2 carapace upgrades are done, then 1a your way to victory. A maxed or near/maxed roach/hydra army is unstoppable. This build CRUSHES roach/infestor play, muta/ling/bling (assuming you can micro your hydras away from the banelings), etc. The only way I ever lose ZvZ now is either some kind of early all-in cheese rush or a better executed roach/hydra build. Source: Zerg player ranked #637 in North America with an 80%+ win ratio against zerg. Been doing this a lot post patch. Except on very small maps, because 6/7/8 pool is just too strong. I find it dangerous to 14 pool unless on a 4 player map or Xel-naga caverns since its such a long rush. Plus, mass ling all in would hurt pretty bad if you only make like 4 roaches to block the ramp. I know, I've been there. :p But your lategame strat is spot on, pumping roach/hydra while getting upgrades is amazing, and if you spread the creep decently you can be aggressive pretty safely and exert map control. I do wanna ask how you deal with insane amounts of early aggression if you only make a few roaches and then drone hard, especially on a map like BS. | ||
|
Synk
United States297 Posts
I have a lot of success with this strat but I hate it at the same time, I hate how idiotic zvz feels and how zerg's lack of defensive friendly play just ruins this match up. It does require good micro I guess but I've literally done this strat since beta and its always been very successful in the top tiers of play ( currently 1812 diamond ), which results in almost all of my zvz games being about 6 minutes long at most. | ||
|
IPA
United States3206 Posts
On November 10 2010 07:56 jdseemoreglass wrote: Guys I want you to know that ZvZ doesn't have to be cheesy or coinflippy... (coinflippy?) I used to despise ZvZ but now when I see it I am happy for the free victory. I've literally won the last 12 ZvZ games I've played doing a very simple roach/hydra timing push. I have many, many replays of this strategy stomping every other. Basic plan is this: 14 pool, about 16 gas, with an instant roach warren as soon as pool is done. Get enough roaches to completely block your ramp from ling/bling cheese, then drone hard. Take a second base once you are saturated and have enough roaches to defend a more open natural. If you scout or suspect mutas, get a few spores to defend your workers. Add hydras into your mix. Keep pumping roach/hydra until your +2 attack +2 carapace upgrades are done, then 1a your way to victory. A maxed or near/maxed roach/hydra army is unstoppable. This build CRUSHES roach/infestor play, muta/ling/bling (assuming you can micro your hydras away from the banelings), etc. The only way I ever lose ZvZ now is either some kind of early all-in cheese rush or a better executed roach/hydra build. Source: Zerg player ranked #637 in North America with an 80%+ win ratio against zerg. Just wanted to second this. It may not be the "end all / be all" of ZvZ but it is an excellent template for winning. This build, if micro'd correctly, crushes splings. It is safe and powerful. I'm 1850 Diamond Zerg if that floats your boat. | ||
|
MonkeyKungFu
Norway154 Posts
On November 10 2010 08:26 IPA wrote: Just wanted to second this. It may not be the "end all / be all" of ZvZ but it is an excellent template for winning. This build, if micro'd correctly, crushes splings. It is safe and powerful. I'm 1850 Diamond Zerg if that floats your boat. Against a bling opening, would you not lose against a good player as he gets map controll with speedlings and can expand earlier and get his economy up before you? | ||
|
regulator_mk
United States127 Posts
On November 10 2010 06:40 justindab0mb wrote: it's totally different from ZvT and ZvP (you can't just wait till the last minute to make units). I don't think this is the reason it's totally different from ZvT or ZvP... the difference is that it's much easier to get more information of what's going on. You still want to make units as late as possible, but you have to be aware of how late that is. Scout on 8 or 9 so you can see when he's getting his pool. You always want yours to be slightly later than his, so you have a better econ, but still have as many units as he does when he attacks you. This is how pros end up with 16 hatch 20 pool. They know their opponent doesn't have a pool, so they wait as long as possible to make theirs. You can keep your overlords over walking paths because zerg doesn't have anything that shoots up and can leave creep until mutas. At lair get an overseer so you can also look inside his base. With all this information, you should know exactly what he's doing and you can counter it. | ||
|
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On November 10 2010 08:37 MonkeyKungFu wrote: Against a bling opening, would you not lose against a good player as he gets map controll with speedlings and can expand earlier and get his economy up before you? Typically your opponent will expand before you, but from watching my replays I can keep ahead of drones while on 1base because he is spending resources and larva on lings and hatchery. In the mid-game your opponent will likely have a slight economic advantage, but that won't mean much when you have a near-maxed roach/hydra army marching toward his main. It is such a powerful composition that after trading armies you will easily survive the next wave, and your reinforcements are on the way as well. If you play around with build orders you will note that there is very little variation in the economical efficiency between them. Going 10 pool, 14 pool, 15 hatch are all incredibly similar in mid-game economy, so I think people overestimate hatch-first builds. Check out my post at the end of the page: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164559¤tpage=5 | ||
|
hox
United States59 Posts
On November 10 2010 07:56 jdseemoreglass wrote: Guys I want you to know that ZvZ doesn't have to be cheesy or coinflippy... (coinflippy?) I used to despise ZvZ but now when I see it I am happy for the free victory. I've literally won the last 12 ZvZ games I've played doing a very simple roach/hydra timing push. I have many, many replays of this strategy stomping every other. Basic plan is this: 14 pool, about 16 gas, with an instant roach warren as soon as pool is done. Get enough roaches to completely block your ramp from ling/bling cheese, then drone hard. Take a second base once you are saturated and have enough roaches to defend a more open natural. If you scout or suspect mutas, get a few spores to defend your workers. Add hydras into your mix. Keep pumping roach/hydra until your +2 attack +2 carapace upgrades are done, then 1a your way to victory. A maxed or near/maxed roach/hydra army is unstoppable. This build CRUSHES roach/infestor play, muta/ling/bling (assuming you can micro your hydras away from the banelings), etc. The only way I ever lose ZvZ now is either some kind of early all-in cheese rush or a better executed roach/hydra build. Source: Zerg player ranked #637 in North America with an 80%+ win ratio against zerg. Nice! I have to ask though, what do you do about +1 zergling all-ins? I find that zlings are already very cost-effective vs roaches, and once they get +1 they are most more efficient than roaches. When you see the fast evo chamber what's your response - banelings? +1 roach? | ||
|
Cider
United States198 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=151547 | ||
|
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On November 10 2010 09:39 Ema wrote: Nice! I have to ask though, what do you do about +1 zergling all-ins? I find that zlings are already very cost-effective vs roaches, and once they get +1 they are most more efficient than roaches. When you see the fast evo chamber what's your response - banelings? +1 roach? If you position your roaches on the top of the ramp, only 4 lings or so can attack your roaches at once. He would have to suicide a TON of lings to defeat them. On some maps however, mass early lings are more problematic. Scrap Station is the most obvious, since there is no small choke or ramp. On such maps I usually just keep my roaches close to my main, tucked next to buildings to prevent a surround. Once you have sufficient roaches or feel safe enough to expand based on his ling numbers, move the roaches between the fork. Remember with this build you are playing for the late game. Stay defensive early on and do NOT move out, otherwise a ling run-by or surround will end the game. | ||
|
Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On November 10 2010 07:56 jdseemoreglass wrote: Guys I want you to know that ZvZ doesn't have to be cheesy or coinflippy... (coinflippy?) I used to despise ZvZ but now when I see it I am happy for the free victory. I've literally won the last 12 ZvZ games I've played doing a very simple roach/hydra timing push. I have many, many replays of this strategy stomping every other. Basic plan is this: 14 pool, about 16 gas, with an instant roach warren as soon as pool is done. Get enough roaches to completely block your ramp from ling/bling cheese, then drone hard. Take a second base once you are saturated and have enough roaches to defend a more open natural. If you scout or suspect mutas, get a few spores to defend your workers. Add hydras into your mix. Keep pumping roach/hydra until your +2 attack +2 carapace upgrades are done, then 1a your way to victory. A maxed or near/maxed roach/hydra army is unstoppable. This build CRUSHES roach/infestor play, muta/ling/bling (assuming you can micro your hydras away from the banelings), etc. The only way I ever lose ZvZ now is either some kind of early all-in cheese rush or a better executed roach/hydra build. Source: Zerg player ranked #637 in North America with an 80%+ win ratio against zerg. Interesting strategy. A few questions: 1. When do you get your evo(s)? Do you get 2? 2. Do you mix in hydras even if they don't get mutas? Or just when they get mutas? 3. Do you drone scout? Do you do anything differently if they go 14hatch? 4. Do you get infestors against muta/ling/bane? Interesting strategy though. I'll keep it in mind. | ||
|
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On November 10 2010 11:32 Dromar wrote: Interesting strategy. A few questions: 1. When do you get your evo(s)? Do you get 2? 2. Do you mix in hydras even if they don't get mutas? Or just when they get mutas? 3. Do you drone scout? Do you do anything differently if they go 14hatch? 4. Do you get infestors against muta/ling/bane? Interesting strategy though. I'll keep it in mind. 1. I get my evos once I am confident enough that the number of lings or roaches he has cannot defeat my roach wall-off. It is kind of a judgement call. 2. The only time I DON'T get hydras in the mix is if I scout my opponent going for a mass roach +1 all in type of build, then I have to match his roach count before trying to tech hydra. 3. 14 Hatch doesn't deter me from going the same exact build. 4. I never get infestors in ZvZ. Never... To answer some of the questions people have, I have provided a replay. It may not be the best execution of this build possible, but it was the first ZvZ I played today on the 1.1.3 patch, so you'll have to do. As you can see, his ling/roach/infestor build got completely crushed even though he had an extra saturated base. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-164541.jpg) [/url] | ||
|
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
 ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-164581.jpg) [/url] | ||
|
Shrewmy
Australia199 Posts
On November 10 2010 07:56 jdseemoreglass wrote: Guys I want you to know that ZvZ doesn't have to be cheesy or coinflippy... (coinflippy?) I used to despise ZvZ but now when I see it I am happy for the free victory. I've literally won the last 12 ZvZ games I've played doing a very simple roach/hydra timing push. I have many, many replays of this strategy stomping every other. Basic plan is this: 14 pool, about 16 gas, with an instant roach warren as soon as pool is done. Get enough roaches to completely block your ramp from ling/bling cheese, then drone hard. Take a second base once you are saturated and have enough roaches to defend a more open natural. If you scout or suspect mutas, get a few spores to defend your workers. Add hydras into your mix. Keep pumping roach/hydra until your +2 attack +2 carapace upgrades are done, then 1a your way to victory. A maxed or near/maxed roach/hydra army is unstoppable. This build CRUSHES roach/infestor play, muta/ling/bling (assuming you can micro your hydras away from the banelings), etc. The only way I ever lose ZvZ now is either some kind of early all-in cheese rush or a better executed roach/hydra build. Source: Zerg player ranked #637 in North America with an 80%+ win ratio against zerg. Oh man, I really should try this, I lost an awful, awful ZvZ to Roach/Hydra/Infestor, micro'd my Mutas horribly. Then the next time I lost to mass lings :| | ||
|
Soulxfire
Australia52 Posts
| ||
|
Salvarias
Denmark231 Posts
| ||
|
AFCArt
Netherlands34 Posts
tried it 3 times but taking my natural was hell already.. and the longer we wait the more income he has to outnumber any army and still have options to backstab. seems to be all they throw at me is muta ling or ling/bling or ling/bling/muta and easily walk over me early game and can switch if they want | ||
|
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On November 11 2010 05:14 AFCArt wrote: i dont get how you can win with roach/infestor or roach/hydra infestor srsly. he can just take over the map and i am immobile as shit. man i hate this match up. lose them all the time.. after that he can easily match whatever roach/hydra count. tried it 3 times but taking my natural was hell already.. and the longer we wait the more income he has to outnumber any army and still have options to backstab. seems to be all they throw at me is muta ling or ling/bling or ling/bling/muta and easily walk over me early game and can switch if they want Try taking a look at the replays please. I was on 2 bases to my opponents 4/5, and it wasn't even a close win either game. One thing you must learn about SC2 is that it is much more noob friendly than BW. You don't need a third in 90% of games, since you have enough resources to get about 450 supply off two bases. One base had 1500 gas in BW, compared to 5000 in SC2. I know it is comparing apples to oranges, but the point is the same: Once an army is maxed it makes little difference how many resources or bases are behind. The most efficient maxed army will crush wave 1 + wave 2. Please post replays of you losing with this strategy and perhaps I can provide some advice. I am confident this roach/hydra push can stop ANY macro play or composition that is thrown at it. If anyone still has doubts about this strategy, I also welcome a practice match anytime. I will go 2base roach/hydra, you can go whatever you want. | ||
|
AFCArt
Netherlands34 Posts
the problem is that most maps you can't block your natural that easy. I think you need a 2nd base for this to work and the mobility of muta ling seems to be a problem then. I can of course push out from 1 base with roach hydra and leave a couple of roaches behind vs mutaling but it will prob end in a base trade/ai. edit: so the problem lies in taking your natural with this strategy. would like to see it work vs mutaling or ling/bling or something mobile. will post a replay when i try it again on a not backdoor natural map. | ||
|
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-166152.jpg) [/url] | ||
|
oHInsane
France727 Posts
But let's say, you play on scrap station ZvZ and the opponent go for a classic baneling lings opening, do you reconsider your build (since large choke) ? On this map i tend to not do roach opening because I am not sure about my timings and I always concede map control (where he expands of course) and the air proximity is still scary for me. | ||
|
Baloop
United States127 Posts
Still kinda new and need to work on it more but i think it has promise | ||
|
LoVeBrasiL
United States7 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169250¤tpage=2 | ||
|
FuzzyLord
253 Posts
| ||
|
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On November 16 2010 10:18 Baloop wrote: Lately Ive been doing a 14 pool 15 hatch. Banelings to defend against lings (spread them out and hold position), if you scout roach warren throw up spines. Eventually, once droned up Go into roach infestor, with some hydras thrown in for mutas (if scouted). Really quick lair gets overseers for constant scouting. Still kinda new and need to work on it more but i think it has promise I think on most maps getting banelings is unnecessary because you can safely open roaches and get a later expansion. I've found earlier hatch really does very little to give an economic edge. I also think infestors are usually a waste of gas. I would definitely prefer to have an upgrade or a group hydras to a pretty worthless fungal growth. Overseers also tend to be a waste, for the same gas you can get ALL overlords speed. I would only get them for burrowed roach play. Just my 2cents. | ||
|
Yilar
Denmark90 Posts
| ||
| ||
