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I'm a gold protoss player, and recently I've been using a build against zerg that works perhaps 90% of the time. I find this a bit ridiculous because it really isn't that good of a build. Therefore, I wanted to see if anyone higher up in the ladder has experience with something similar. How effective is it, how can I improve it, etc.
* Chrono boost probes 11 and 13.
* Scout after gateway
* Chrono boost air units (duh)
9 - pylon (ramp)
12 - pylon (hidden in base)
14 - gateway (ramp)
15 - forge (ramp)
2 gas asap
zealot (wall-off)
1-3 cannons (ramp)
19 - cybernetics core
pylon
23 - stargate (hidden in base)
void ray
stargate (hidden in base)
void ray
phoenix
......(more air units)
Watching replays, I find that I can usually push out with 2 VR and 1 Phoenix to win the game. Lift up the queen, done. However, I usually wait for 4 VR and 1 Phoenix.
I've never fallen to a zergling (15ish) push or a roach push yet, and the spire or banelings nest seems to finish right when I get to their base, assuming I'm massing up more air units before I attack.
I'll add replays if necessary, but I'm not really asking about my play, but the build in general.
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I don't really know. Two void rays and two stargates is both a lot of gas and a lot of minerals. You don't really have a standing army I guess.
Also, when a protoss walls in and is all secretive I would sacrifice an overlord to see what's up.
Also, four queens on two bases is pretty good stuff. Two to inject, the other two to transfuse, lay tumours et cetera. Queens are overpowered, except when they're off creep.
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It used to be all right, I could kill the other hatchery or at least keep it from mining for a long time. But the last patch made it pretty unstable. You can pull it off if you send some gateway units to catch a running queen and do more damage to the hatchery. But I've switched to 3 gate robo play instead, I find it far stronger early and late game.
Your BO needs some work. Here is mine. Gets you more units than a Zealot, but you can use cannons instead if you want. You can switch it up, get an early assimilator for the sentry. It makes it much easier to beat baneling busts, which can come as early as 4 minutes.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157866.jpg)
What I'm using now:
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I tend just to go Gateway units collosi in this (and every other) match up. Sure sometime void rays are useful, but collosi are always useful (with stalkers)
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On November 08 2010 13:21 TrueProtoss wrote:
I tend just to go Gateway units collosi in this (and every other) match up. Sure sometime void rays are useful, but collosi are always useful (with stalkers) How is this relevant to the topic?
Anyway, if someone goes void ray you wish that you hadn't invested that much in colossi.
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void rays prior to the nerf were one of the best units, however now they only viable when you proxy and your opponent is unprepared because they are under the impression that no p would go vray after the update (Surprise!). The only time i use them now is in 4 v 4 random when i have had a bad day in sc2 to boost my self esttem. i miss my 40 dps
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On November 08 2010 13:21 TrueProtoss wrote:
I tend just to go Gateway units collosi in this (and every other) match up. Sure sometime void rays are useful, but collosi are always useful (with stalkers)
Hmm I don't need other builds, I just want to know how this build, or a similar one, holds up in higher levels of play.
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nope it will not hold off i think, unless they have no idea the void rays are coming. if ur plan fail, it will be a 1 base toss against a 2 base zerg with no ground units to support the expansion, hydras will rape you hard
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Honestly, in later levels of play, even in gold, suiciding an overlord is a very procedural thing for good zergs, especially when a quick zergling poke at the front reveals cannons and/or the initial scouting overlord reveals double gas before 20 supply. Because you aren't moving out, these two pieces of intelligence are a dead giveaway, suggesting either DTs or stargate units (be they phoenixes or voidrays), for both of which the zerg will need lair tech to deal with effectively. When the suiciding ovie moves in, lair tech is almost always close to completion, and your opponent is merely attempting to determine how to spend their gas when lair pops (overseers for DTs, hydralisk den for stargates), at which point your all-in is done for, especially if you're waiting to get 5 or so units. By that time, a smart zerg will have a lot of hydras and queens to easily deal with your stuff, even if you're precharging your void rays. After your initial group is dead, you can expect to be dropped and/or nydused, at which point you will lose because you are all-in.
My advice: start experimenting with other builds. Blink stalker pressure (or warpgate pressure builds in general) is absolutely great against most zergs right now, and has the added benefit of being able to be transitioned out of. If you absolutely must use void rays, you need to pressure the zerg into investing heavily into spines, lings and roaches before getting your void ray out so that even if you are scouted, a tech switch will be highly infeasible.
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1st of all, void rays are actually better fr this now, people seem to forget that uncharged void rays do MORE damage now, the charge damage was nerfed because they melted buildings too fast, makes little difference to this strategy.
2. It is probably the most predictable and easiest to counter cheese after 6pool.
If I see a protoss getting forge first, there are really only 3 options, cannon rush cheese which is easily spotted, fast expansion whih is also easily spotted and countered with roaches quite well or a void ray rush. Once I know its a void ray rush, spores go up and I have 2 queens at hatch befre the first 2 arrive, if they send a single void ray, ill have one queen and spores just popping as they arrive, easily enough to push back the attack.
I'm only a silver player and usually have trouble with cheese, but I find it hard to believe you win 90% of the time against zerg with a void ray rush, I was under the impression that the North American server was actually harder than SEA. On SEA that wont fly past low bronze unless the protoss has excellent execution.
The only viabl.e option I can think of is a gateway before forge option, that way the zerg will probably think the protoss is going a usual macro build and wont adequately prepare for the void rays.
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On November 08 2010 14:41 Tomo009 wrote:
1st of all, void rays are actually better fr this now, people seem to forget that uncharged void rays do MORE damage now, the charge damage was nerfed because they melted buildings too fast, makes little difference to this strategy.
2. It is probably the most predictable and easiest to counter cheese after 6pool.
If I see a protoss getting forge first, there are really only 3 options, cannon rush cheese which is easily spotted, fast expansion whih is also easily spotted and countered with roaches quite well or a void ray rush. Once I know its a void ray rush, spores go up and I have 2 queens at hatch befre the first 2 arrive, if they send a single void ray, ill have one queen and spores just popping as they arrive, easily enough to push back the attack.
I'm only a silver player and usually have trouble with cheese, but I find it hard to believe you win 90% of the time against zerg with a void ray rush, I was under the impression that the North American server was actually harder than SEA. On SEA that wont fly past low bronze unless the protoss has excellent execution.
The only viabl.e option I can think of is a gateway before forge option, that way the zerg will probably think the protoss is going a usual macro build and wont adequately prepare for the void rays.
The gateway does go down first.
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I posted at the wrong place
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On November 08 2010 15:12 Karliath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 14:41 Tomo009 wrote:
1st of all, void rays are actually better fr this now, people seem to forget that uncharged void rays do MORE damage now, the charge damage was nerfed because they melted buildings too fast, makes little difference to this strategy.
2. It is probably the most predictable and easiest to counter cheese after 6pool.
If I see a protoss getting forge first, there are really only 3 options, cannon rush cheese which is easily spotted, fast expansion whih is also easily spotted and countered with roaches quite well or a void ray rush. Once I know its a void ray rush, spores go up and I have 2 queens at hatch befre the first 2 arrive, if they send a single void ray, ill have one queen and spores just popping as they arrive, easily enough to push back the attack.
I'm only a silver player and usually have trouble with cheese, but I find it hard to believe you win 90% of the time against zerg with a void ray rush, I was under the impression that the North American server was actually harder than SEA. On SEA that wont fly past low bronze unless the protoss has excellent execution.
The only viabl.e option I can think of is a gateway before forge option, that way the zerg will probably think the protoss is going a usual macro build and wont adequately prepare for the void rays. The gateway does go down first.
Guess it might work, but you are hoping there's a fairly large window where the zerg doesn't scout at all, which I guess does happen at this level.
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So basically it's an all-in that will get crushed if the zerg is decent and sacs an overlord...
At that point 2 stargate is really all in, a defensive forge with cannons when you're one basing... just a lot of holes with this one. I mean yah the zerg is going to die if he doesn't scout it, but as soon as he sacs an overlord, makes more queens while teching to hydra or muta, this is done. 2 stargates mean you won't have enough stalkers or sentries (if at all) to deny that scouting ovie anyways.
Just my 2 cents.
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TBH I used to do it HOPING the zerg would adjust his build for it... put the Stargate at my wallin, and would go pew pew pew a bit while expanding and teching to collossus... pretty good.
Course, now Void Rays are so weak, the Zerg (or Terran, or even Protoss) doesn't have to adjust his build at all.
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void rays in my opinions are stronger. but they wont single handedly destroy the whole base or units, it is not suppose to be that strong. Although i have to admit i am not using them anymore, other then being desperate when i go phoneix and i see roaches marching to my base.
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my question is, why use void rays at all? a fleet of 3-4 phoenix can pick off queens probably just as fast, and are faster than the 2 void rays. phoenix also build faster, and are great to hunt overlords with, while avoiding queens and roaming hydras. they are also better against mutalisks.
chances are, the reason you beat zerg players 90 percent of the time in gold level is that they don't scount, and your macro is better than theirs.
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On November 08 2010 16:04 whiteguycash wrote:
my question is, why use void rays at all? a fleet of 3-4 phoenix can pick off queens probably just as fast, and are faster than the 2 void rays. phoenix also build faster, and are great to hunt overlords with, while avoiding queens and roaming hydras. they are also better against mutalisks.
chances are, the reason you beat zerg players 90 percent of the time in gold level is that they don't scount, and your macro is better than theirs.
shh don't give them ideas, protoss might start using phoenixes more.
But yeah, people need to read patch notes, I would call the void ray change a buff, unless you use them ONLY against buildings or ultralisks, which they shouldnt be able to melt anyway.
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I have just started experimenting (~1600 diamond) with going gateway-gas-core-gas-stargate-forge-gateway versus zerg. you harass with the first void, or you can defend a t1 zerg attack that you scout because they have no offensive units that shoot up, so a void, a couple GW units, and a cannon or so can hold very easily and also allow you to take an expo while the zerg techs to mutas to be able to shoot up. an early void is particularly strong against the roach rushes that are such a pain. don't underestimate the defensive void ray vs zerg, which is something phoenix can never really do.
don't get 2 stargates that's just crazy talk.
after this I like to expo and depending on how the zerg responds get colossi or start adding in phoenixes. build voids constantly from stargate with chrono and get a fleet beacon for vr speed, along with upgrades from core. this allows you to exert some map control and pick off any expos the zerg tries to throw up. you can also get a mothership at your natural to make the Z unsure about the size of your force. you can move out with an army that is mothership/voids/ a few colossus/stalker... the upgraded voids + mothership can keep the corruptors busy while your colossi kill any ground forces they might have. Also don't underestimate the power of vortex, and since you are getting weapons upgrades from core you can mix in a couple carriers for great effect, as they hang out with your mothership and colossi in the back of your army and deal a ton of damage. Also this comp is decent against both the terrifying zerg t3 tech, which is something I haven't been able to accomplish with anything else.
you also might want to consider investing in shields if they are going mutas, since forge upgrades are a lower priority. this is only if you manage to take some extra bases and have excess gas.
any thoughts? I've only tried this in a couple of games so far so IDK, but I've been having massive trouble with zerg and this feels stronger than other things I've tried so far. Also, with speed and upgrades voids can defend your mineral lines from mutas if you add in 1-2 cannons for support and distraction while your voids get to the scene.
What I'm describing is a bit different from the OP as I use this as a macro style instead of the 2-stargate all in the OP is describing. But I think there might be some potential here for a stable PvZ build.
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Um..
wow.
I play zerg now, and I always sacrifice an overlord to scout an opponent's base. And I'm in silver... so I'm just guessing that higher level players would do it also? Scout I mean.
And if they do, then its just a matter of getting down a hydralisk den, and boom. You're dead.
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On November 08 2010 14:09 Pax wrote:
Honestly, in later levels of play, even in gold, suiciding an overlord is a very procedural thing for good zergs, especially when a quick zergling poke at the front reveals cannons and/or the initial scouting overlord reveals double gas before 20 supply. Because you aren't moving out, these two pieces of intelligence are a dead giveaway, suggesting either DTs or stargate units (be they phoenixes or voidrays), for both of which the zerg will need lair tech to deal with effectively. When the suiciding ovie moves in, lair tech is almost always close to completion, and your opponent is merely attempting to determine how to spend their gas when lair pops (overseers for DTs, hydralisk den for stargates), at which point your all-in is done for, especially if you're waiting to get 5 or so units. By that time, a smart zerg will have a lot of hydras and queens to easily deal with your stuff, even if you're precharging your void rays. After your initial group is dead, you can expect to be dropped and/or nydused, at which point you will lose because you are all-in.
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I didnt' see this before I posted, but yep - I agree with this guy, that build might work NOW. But it's EXTREMELY dependant on the other side not scouting... and you walling off with cannons would already send the alarm bells ringing!!
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That's why transitioning into colossi is so powerful after opening voids, because you will melt the hydras. also the voids help against the main z counter to colossi, corruptors.
EDIT: which is to say, don't think about voids as being a cheese unit... they can be used very effectively as part of your main army if you are smart about it. The patch made voids a worse cheese unit, but possibly a better core army unit which, when combined with colossi, doesn't really have a hard counter from z.
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It's not the unit that is the cheese, its the build.
Obviously your' build was very different and its effectiveness is proven by your diamond league status.
The OP's build however seems like it should be horribly ineffective at all levels. It is one of the easiest strategies to predict and once you know its coming, it is jsut too easy to prepare before they even arrive.
I wouldn't drop a hydra den really, I used to use hydras a lot vs P but they just leave me too open to harass I think, I would defend with queens/spore crawlers and either just end them with a ground army or macro and retake air control once I reach the zerg "boom"
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-161731.jpg)
