EPT[H] Too Much Micro? - Page 2
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Zyphen
United States258 Posts
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Enervate
United States1769 Posts
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vileChAnCe
Canada525 Posts
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bobartig
40 Posts
On November 04 2010 05:02 Deathfairy wrote: There is zero need to watch silver level replay to say that you problem is macro. NONE zip nada. Untill mid diamond you can easily win with pure macro and A move to oponents base without ever looking a your army ever (aka zero micro). never look outside your base besides scouting, then hotkey your army and use mini map to attack. So what was said before that micro means nothing is 100% correct. Totally agree. I have a friend who is mid-level diamond, and I was pretty shocked to see that he never watched battles, and just kept macro'ing 100% of the time. Bioball, tank push, mass-thors (he's mainly mech and bio) just make the units, rally, hot-key, a-move using mini-map, and keep making more stuff. Sometimes checks battles afterward, re-rallys, re-hotkeys, and sends more stuff. His APM is relatively high, and he uses NO micro. That's enough to win a lot and get into the top 1% of N. American players. | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
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Moody
United States750 Posts
On November 03 2010 23:16 Champ24 wrote: Up until maybe high platinum, work on macro. Don't worry about micro. As day9 would say, just build probes and pylons. Constantly producing probes and not getting supply blocked sounds simple, but even the best players jack it up every once in a while. And the consequences are catastrophic. If your money gets too high, expand or throw down more unit producing structures. At bronze through high plat you can win every game by simply building more stuff than your opponent. This. You can win some diamond games by doing this. 1.)Just find out what your opponent is building, 2.)build the counter to it and just keep spamming those units, 3.)when you think you have enough, a-move to his natural. 4.) No base there? A-move into his main. 4a.)"OH SHIT SIEGE TANKS AND 74 BUNKERS!" Move home, expand. -See anything you didn't have a counter for? Counter it. 4b.) "Oh, I have more stuff than him... sweet!" - Win Rinse repeat. | ||
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Rowen
United States76 Posts
On November 04 2010 06:23 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: Macro > Micro. You can get to diamond with pure macro only. Macro is the low hanging fruit of improving for players below mid-high diamond. As I've stated many times before, this is OT. Nobody on the whole thread is debating which is better, macro or micro, the thread is about in this PARTICULAR game, should I have laid off the micro to macro a bit more efficiently. As has been said by the responders who watched the replay, my macro was not bad, my micro was efficient, but I made some basic errors that hurt my chances (though I still won convincingly). I really hate posting "silver league wanting help" and getting what's essentially a form letter in reply. "You can get to mid-diamond just by macroing." I'm not debating that, but how can you get to HIGH diamond? I'm silver, I acknowledge that, but why should I settle for learning skills that won't get me to the 2200+ level? by the by, I've won 8 of my last 10 and my win/loss is 5:4, and if you exclude the games I played before I knew two shakes about proper mechanical play, it's closer to 2:1. I'm not one of those low-leaguers who comes in and says "wai my 6pool no werk?" I'm doing the work and improving and dominating my league thus far. I think the point I'm trying to express is below: Please give me information I can use! Several posters have done just that, and I thank you: Zatic, clickrush, Nobu, Whomp. Posting for the 10th time this thread that micro is unnecessary at my level does not make you insightful or witty, it makes you off-topic since my topic isn't "How do I win more in Silver league" or "What's better, macro or micro," it's "Did I micro too much in this particular game?" Replying to that without watching the posted replay is like doing a book report on Green Mile without reading it, because you've read 40 other Steven King books. | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
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wizard944
194 Posts
1. Yes, you were microing too much, you should lay off the micro and instead make your macro as good as possible. 2. If you increase your mutitasking ability/apm/hotkey proficiency you could still micro that much and still maintain as perfect macro as possible. which answer you take depends on how serious you are at getting better. If you are like me and only play about 2 hours on the weekends, and none at all during the week because school takes up too much time, then you should take the first approach. However, if you play a decent amount every day, then you should take the second answer because ideally, you should always compare yourself to perfection in order to play as good as possible. Edit: Looking at the other responses, I'm pretty sure you already know most of that stuff and that you weren't really asking that but since I seem to be outnumbered, I'm sorry if I misunderstood your question. Also, I wouldn't say that micro is irrelevant always because one should at least micro to the point that all their units are firing and that the majority of their units aren't stuck in the back turning in circles like idiots. Anything beyond that, I could see holding off until mid-diamond. | ||
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kaztah
Norway1221 Posts
On November 04 2010 05:56 Whomp wrote: I'm going against the flow here because if your committed to getting good and if your making so many posts with replays i'm assuming you are then you need to practice doing both at the same time. Work on being faster so through entire games starting with your overlord in the beginning hotkey your overlord to your army groups switch between them and your hatchery thinking of what you need to make and constantly moving your overlord. Most people consider this spamming but if you pretend your micro'ing/macroing its actually really beneficial. I'm going to disagree with this. Macro is so much more important, and trying to focus on too many things at once, wont make you improve in any. Have specific goals, and work on them. And macro should always always be top priority. On November 04 2010 05:10 Rowen wrote: I noted the problems I had (supply block, missing one inject) and even mentioned that I supply block myself ALL THE TIME because I'm a horrible player. Missing the inject is a good metric for microing too much, as already pointed out by zatic, so although I appreciate your input I don't think you're really addressing the point at hand (which is specific to this replay, which it seems you never watched) See, you answered your own question. Practice macro so much that you wont get constantly supply blocked, so your gas amount doesn't skyrocket, so you don't miss larva injects. And after you can do that pretty regulary, then you focus on something besides a-moving. It sounds strange, and it might actually cost you games on ladder, but in the big picture you will improve more. Stop looking at the short-term wins, and rather on the long distance goal. | ||
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nanoscorp
United States1237 Posts
<time for macro comes up> 55 to pull up the queen 1 move home (just click somewhere in your base to pull your army back) 5v inject continue with your injections/unit production/creep spread 11 take a look at your army, possibly grab and re-hotkey your reinforcements With a brief retreat like this you can make your army relatively safe without even having to look at them. With constant focus on macro, you should have reinforcements streaming out steadily, so baiting your opponent a little further into midfield is a great idea too. Once your injections are ticking away, you can jump back and continue harassing. | ||
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-{Cake}-
United States217 Posts
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Zvendetta
United States321 Posts
The more stuff you actually have, the less *micro* you need to do, if you really want to stylistically learn managing units, then you want to be focusing on *control* which is significantly different than micro. Control is easily being able to mobilize large armies, and have units do specific things- where spell casting comes into play. This isn't necessarily "micro" where you are trying to save every little unit you have. Also, there is a HUGE misconception than "Scute shooting" is always good micro. attack, run back a little, attack... You need to be decisive- do I want to engage, or should I retreat. | ||
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Panoptic
United Kingdom515 Posts
There was one point when he had you contained early on and you had 1k in the bank and you kept poking him despite having the smaller army/being contained. There your focus should have merely been to pull your units back, get them into a nice position (maybe build a spinecrawler) and pump out more units. That was the only point that I thought "c'mon dude, make more units". Otherwise I would say your play was generally pretty solid in terms of macro & adding on expos/tech etc.. You'd be in a higher league if you had started out with either of the other races, trust me. | ||
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Evoslayer
United States43 Posts
After that point yeah it because practical to "Increase your APM (handspeed)" so you can do more things in the same amount of time, but I would say that if you are missing injections while microing while still under like 50 APM what your really need to do is come up with a way to remind yourself to do the injections and watch your apm go up. | ||
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NPF
Canada1635 Posts
On November 04 2010 06:36 Rowen wrote: Posting for the 10th time this thread that micro is unnecessary at my level does not make you insightful or witty, it makes you off-topic since my topic isn't "How do I win more in Silver league" or "What's better, macro or micro," it's "Did I micro too much in this particular game?" Replying to that without watching the posted replay is like doing a book report on Green Mile without reading it, because you've read 40 other Steven King books. I'm sorry to not have watched your replay, but I think the point they are trying to make is if you aren't able to macro well, keep pumping drones, not getting supply blocked, etc. you are microing too much. High level players can have great micro because they can already macro solidely, since they know macro gives the larger advantage. I'd go with if you can't macro hard, you're microing to much, but it's always nice to look at your army while you larva inject.I think someone said to check out Day9 DjWheat help for zerg macro but he does talk about micro and says look at your army while they fight and control your larva from hotkeys micro when you are not near getting supplied blocked or high on minerals. He also teaches DjWheat to sometimes ignore attacks on his own base to be able to make overlords to not get supply blocked. Basically micro is the last thing you should be doing. Really that video will give you all the feedback you need. Hope you find this helpful to understand why people are just saying macro and a-move lol. Edit: Your ability to micro is a great skill and will surely place you ahead of the competition when you have enough time to do all your macro and then have time to micro | ||
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Panoptic
United Kingdom515 Posts
On November 04 2010 08:48 NPF wrote: I'm sorry to not have watched your replay, but I think the point they are trying to make is if you aren't able to macro well, keep pumping drones, not getting supply blocked, etc. you are microing too much. High level players can have great micro because they can already macro solidely, since they know macro gives the larger advantage. I'd go with if you can't macro hard, you're microing to much, but it's always nice to look at your army while you larva inject.I think someone said to check out Day9 DjWheat help for zerg macro but he does talk about micro and says look at your army while they fight and control your larva from hotkeys micro when you are not near getting supplied blocked or high on minerals. He also teaches DjWheat to sometimes ignore attacks on his own base to be able to make overlords to not get supply blocked. Basically micro is the last thing you should be doing. Really that video will give you all the feedback you need. Hope you find this helpful to understand why people are just saying macro and a-move lol. Edit: Your ability to micro is a great skill and will surely place you ahead of the competition when you have enough time to do all your macro and then have time to micro If you watched the replay you would see that his play is, on the whole, fine. His balance between macro and micro is absolutely fine for someone at his level. In fact, it's astounding that he's still in silver league. I know you're trying to help, but if you watch the replay you'll see that there is nothing wrong with his play. | ||
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kaztah
Norway1221 Posts
On November 04 2010 09:00 Panoptic wrote: If you watched the replay you would see that his play is, on the whole, fine. His balance between macro and micro is absolutely fine for someone at his level. In fact, it's astounding that he's still in silver league. I know you're trying to help, but if you watch the replay you'll see that there is nothing wrong with his play. Yes his play is fine for his level, but he obviously wants to be better then the silver level he plays at. I quit watching at 11 minutes. he had over 700 minerals and 700 gas for over 2 minutes straight while being pressured. I don't care how good your micro is, when you have 6 roaches instead of 17. Yes he probably held this 4 gate push off, considering the game lasted another 10 minutes, but the guy he played was awful. Awful build order, bad usage of chronoboost, bad resource management. The guy had 6 gateways on one base. You can talk about how "good it is for the level he plays at", but that shouldn't matter. He should compare himself to the step he wants to reach. And unfortunatly his macro is clearly lacking. I really really like your drone production, but that's about it. | ||
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Rowen
United States76 Posts
On November 04 2010 09:41 kaztah wrote: he had over 700 minerals and 700 gas for over 2 minutes straight while being pressured. I don't care how good your micro is, when you have 6 roaches instead of 17. I appreciate your comments, especially comparing myself to where I want to be, not where I am, but would like to point out that the ONLY time I was floating minerals in this match was when I was 18 oversupply because they sniped three overlords. I WAS a bit slow in replacing the overlords, so I can't hardly say "I did the best I could," but writing it off because of mineral count without checking the game state makes you hardly better than me.... That said, I think I've derived exactly what I needed from this thread! Thank you for your encouragement, everyone who marveled at me still being stuck in silver (I'm a bit surprised myself), and I now have some very specific things to look for in my macro -- especially my awful habit of finding myself supply blocked -- that can help me establish a benchmark for my own play. | ||
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kaztah
Norway1221 Posts
On November 04 2010 13:12 Rowen wrote: I appreciate your comments, especially comparing myself to where I want to be, not where I am, but would like to point out that the ONLY time I was floating minerals in this match was when I was 18 oversupply because they sniped three overlords. I WAS a bit slow in replacing the overlords, so I can't hardly say "I did the best I could," but writing it off because of mineral count without checking the game state makes you hardly better than me.... That said, I think I've derived exactly what I needed from this thread! Thank you for your encouragement, everyone who marveled at me still being stuck in silver (I'm a bit surprised myself), and I now have some very specific things to look for in my macro -- especially my awful habit of finding myself supply blocked -- that can help me establish a benchmark for my own play. I watched the game state, and I know you lost 3 overlords. I'm not blind. But building 3 overlords takes 25 seconds if you're fast and focusing on macroing, which you should've been doing! so in the 2 minutes where you're floating a ton of minerals, you shouldn't have floated so many minerals. That's the point. You held of his push only because the guy was bad at production at the same time. A proper 4 gateing protoss would have more then 20 supply more then that guy at the same time. And you wouldn't have held that off with your production. You also had over 2000 gas the rest of the game, while having researched +1 range attack and the range upgrade on Hydras. So why didn't you build any? Yes you kept your minerals low, but there are other resources in the game aswell. | ||
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