EPTIs there a built-in way to stop producing probes? I can't find any mention of that.
[G] Build order timing calculator - Page 10
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
Is there a built-in way to stop producing probes? I can't find any mention of that. | ||
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slith
Germany165 Posts
10 Overlord Tells me: "You don't have any geysers!" If I try to work around it by using: 10 Overlord "Job 19 Metabolic Boost could not be scheduled. No gas is being mined." ("2:54 3:18 15 / 18 0 Zergling 176 131" Yeah, I clearly don't mine no 131 gas  )Can't get it to work. Can't get the Drones off gas @ 100 mined... Also imo you should be able to type something like: "13 Extractor > put 3 on gas > @100 gas put 3 on minerals" Would be very happy if that could be implemented. Also your program does not round up/down the amount of gas or minerals to multiples of 4/5. Minor concern though. A very nice site you made there btw. | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
10 Double Extractor Trick The second trick builds two drones, when only one is intended. One could specify "11 Extractor Trick", but that wouldn't have the right cost. The other problem is that Larvae production seems to always happen on the quarter minutes if there is not currently 3+ Larvae. This gives wrong results; if I have 3 larvae at 1:44 and build something, I should get my next larva at 1:59, not 1:45. | ||
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
On November 23 2010 14:22 EatThePath wrote: I finally tried this out, and it's great! (Obviously, hehe.) Is there a built-in way to stop producing probes? I can't find any mention of that. The only way is to manually fill up supplies with units. | ||
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King of Town
Netherlands26 Posts
Also, there seems to be two bugs when I try the 10 Double Extractor Trick It gives an error (something with a variable). I believe it also consumes 1 larva while it should consume 2. Although this kinda cancels out vs non-perfect timings during play, it's still incorrect. Again, I love the tool. Very nice to try out ideas before spending hours playtesting. | ||
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Haploid
Netherlands89 Posts
On November 23 2010 14:22 EatThePath wrote: Is there a built-in way to stop producing probes? I can't find any mention of that. Yeah, there is. The command you're looking for is: 18 Cancel Probe It wasn't listed in the examples before, but it is documented on the new syntax page. On November 24 2010 22:28 slith wrote: ... Tells me: "You don't have any geysers!" Also your program does not round up/down the amount of gas or minerals to multiples of 4/5. Minor concern though. Ok, fixed that bug. Thanks for helping me squash it. The first draft version of the calculator actually kept track of the workers and when they would return minerals and such. After a little thinking, I figured that that level of detail is pretty much irrelevant, except in the extremely rare case that all your workers are moving in phase. They never move in phase for longer than one or two cycles anyway, since the mineral patches are at varying distances. For all intents and purposes, you can assume that minerals and gas come in as a steady stream, and you'll be off by a fraction of a second. On November 24 2010 23:18 Hurkyl wrote: Some more Zerg problems. Consider the 12/10 pool build: 10 Double Extractor Trick The second trick builds two drones, when only one is intended. One could specify "11 Extractor Trick", but that wouldn't have the right cost. The other problem is that Larvae production seems to always happen on the quarter minutes if there is not currently 3+ Larvae. This gives wrong results; if I have 3 larvae at 1:44 and build something, I should get my next larva at 1:59, not 1:45. I'll figure out some nice way of doing your second double extractor trick, and maybe allow extractor tricking of other units as well. I've been meaning to do some experiments with regards to larva production. What you describe makes sense, I'll change that behaviour soon. On November 24 2010 23:51 King of Town wrote: Kudo's! Very nice application, much appreciated! Also, there seems to be two bugs when I try the 10 Double Extractor Trick It gives an error (something with a variable). I believe it also consumes 1 larva while it should consume 2. Although this kinda cancels out vs non-perfect timings during play, it's still incorrect. Again, I love the tool. Very nice to try out ideas before spending hours playtesting. Fixed both problems. Extractor trick right up there as the most bug-prone part of the calculator, but I rather think I got it under control now.  | ||
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Damaskinos
Germany139 Posts
I tried to issue a command "10 Supply Depot (4s)" (SCV walks to ramp, to build Supply Depot there), but this doesnt work. Working it would add realism. Thank you for reading and much more thank you for you fantastic tool! | ||
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Haploid
Netherlands89 Posts
On November 25 2010 09:12 Damaskinos wrote: I tried to issue a command "10 Supply Depot (4s)" (SCV walks to ramp, to build Supply Depot there), but this doesnt work. Working it would add realism. What you're looking for is: 10 Supply Depot (send @60 minerals) or some such number of minerals. The command where you give a number of seconds (4 seconds lost) is only for transferring workers, not for building stuff. I may add that as an option some time in the future, but it's one of the harder things to implement, so it's not high on the todo-list. I figure that being able to send a worker early at a given number of minerals or gas should be more inline with how a human would play it anyway. | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
I've been using your app a bit to test the timings of some build orders that my app comes up with, and the good news is that for the most part our results are in sync (one slight difference is in the gas income rates, but I think I'll be changing mine soon and then I think the incomes will match perfectly). Anyway, just thought I'd post to check that it's ok with you for me to create an output format for my app that can be used as input into yours, just so that people can validate their results with a second opinion I guess (I'd add a link to your site too).Incidentally, one thing I've noticed is that my app uses a 2s starting delay before building / mining, but when I try and use the # Startup build delay for your calculator it doesn't seem to affect the first drone's production. Also, I've noticed that your larva production times seem to be fixed on the 15s mark every time - I plan to do some testing for this, but do you know if that's the case, or if it's 15s after you use the third larva (which is what my app does)? It might be of interest to see a 7RR build that my app comes up with (possibly worth adding to your examples list?): + Show Spoiler + 10 Extractor Trick 11 Overlord 12 Spawning Pool 15 Extractor 16 Queen 18 put 3 on gas 18 Overlord 18 Overlord 18 Roach Warren 17 Spawn Larvae 17 Roach [7] Completes in 4:35. | ||
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slith
Germany165 Posts
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icezar
Germany240 Posts
What i want is a 13 Extractor build at 175 minerals How can i do that? I try the below but it builds another probe before :-( # Startup mining delay = 2 seconds 9 Overlord 12 drone @175 minerals Extractor > +3 12 Spawning Pool 15 Queen > spawn larvae [auto] 17 Zergling @100 gas take 3 off gas 18 Metabolic boost | ||
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icezar
Germany240 Posts
10 Extractor trick 11 Overlord 12 Spawning Pool 11 Extractor > +3 15 Queen > spawn larvae [auto] 17 Zergling 18 Extractor trick @100 gas take 2 off gas 19 Metabolic boost 19 Overlord 21 Hatchery > transfer 6 22 +1 on gas 22 queen > spawn larvae [auto] 25 Overlord 25 zergling [4] 29 +1 on gas 29 Lair 29 take 2 off gas 35 Baneling Nest 34 Roach Warren 33 Overlord 33 take 1 off gas 33 drone Job 33 Drone could not be scheduled. No gas is being mined. ??? | ||
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Haploid
Netherlands89 Posts
On November 25 2010 10:05 CarbonTwelve wrote: Hi Haploid. Not sure if you've seen my app, but it's similar to Lomilar's Evolution Chamber: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168348 I have both apps, and I'm really impressed at the results of both. It's great to see some theoretical computer science in action. I tried to formalize the syntax of build orders that my calculator understands. You can read the description of the syntax here. The formal description in Extended Backus-Naur form is displayed in the brownish boxes. EBNF is a syntax for context-free grammars. If you're unfamiliar with it, just go to wikipedia. It's pretty easy to read. The output of your app is pretty easy to convert to something my calculator will understand. The only thing we approach differently, as far as I can see, is how chronoboosts are written. I write chronoboosts as targetting the unit or upgrade being built, instead of the structure that is building it. I'm open to suggestions for alterations of the syntax or how stuff like chronoboost is annotated. Consider my syntax page a suggestion for a standard, rather than something fixed in stone. On November 25 2010 10:05 CarbonTwelve wrote: Incidentally, one thing I've noticed is that my app uses a 2s starting delay before building / mining, but when I try and use the # Startup build delay for your calculator it doesn't seem to affect the first drone's production. Got it and fixed it. On November 25 2010 10:05 CarbonTwelve wrote: Also, I've noticed that your larva production times seem to be fixed on the 15s mark every time - I plan to do some testing for this, but do you know if that's the case, or if it's 15s after you use the third larva (which is what my app does)? Yeah, I changed that a few days ago. You're right, the next larva is generated 15 seconds after you drop below 3 larvae. On November 26 2010 03:58 icezar wrote: I have a little problem with a build: What i want is a 13 Extractor build at 175 minerals How can i do that? I try the below but it builds another probe before :-( I hadn't thought of that, and I don't really know why you'd want to do that anyway. But I suppose you could write something like: 13 @175 minerals Extractor My calculator doesn't understand that yet, and I'm not sure if a human reader would either. What's the benefit of delaying the Extractor in this case? On November 26 2010 06:30 icezar wrote: Job 33 Drone could not be scheduled. No gas is being mined. Hehe, that's an odd message to get. What happened is that you took Drones off gas, spent all the gas and got stuck with -0.000000000000000000001 gas. Since a Drone requires 0 gas, and you are not mining gas, you'll never have enough gas for that Drone. Fixed it, though. | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
On November 26 2010 20:59 Haploid wrote: I have both apps, and I'm really impressed at the results of both. It's great to see some theoretical computer science in action. Hehe, yeah, using advanced algorithms like this is what really motivates me with these projects I tried to formalize the syntax of build orders that my calculator understands. You can read the description of the syntax here. The formal description in Extended Backus-Naur form is displayed in the brownish boxes. EBNF is a syntax for context-free grammars. If you're unfamiliar with it, just go to wikipedia. It's pretty easy to read. Yep, I know EBNF. Reminds me of my comp sci days of playing around with flex & bison... I don't see any issues with converting the output of my app into yours - I was mainly just checking that you were ok with my app referencing your site Yeah, I changed that a few days ago. You're right, the next larva is generated 15 seconds after you drop below 3 larvae. Ok, cool, at least that's confirmation of it now - I sort of just guessed that it was and couldn't find any info online to confirm it. Tested it myself and it seemed like that was the case, but it's kinda annoying to test actually. I hadn't thought of that, and I don't really know why you'd want to do that anyway. But I suppose you could write something like: 13 @175 minerals Extractor My calculator doesn't understand that yet, and I'm not sure if a human reader would either. What's the benefit of delaying the Extractor in this case? Not sure what icezar's reason was, but I can imagine that it's worth doing because you want to delay consuming the drone longer so you get more mining time out of it. Hehe, that's an odd message to get. What happened is that you took Drones off gas, spent all the gas and got stuck with -0.000000000000000000001 gas. Gotta love them floating points | ||
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Haploid
Netherlands89 Posts
On November 26 2010 23:17 CarbonTwelve wrote: Yep, I know EBNF. Reminds me of my comp sci days of playing around with flex & bison... I don't see any issues with converting the output of my app into yours - I was mainly just checking that you were ok with my app referencing your site Flex, bison, that brings back lots of semi-repressed memories. I very much welcome the reference to my site. I'm working on a page with links to other projects, such as yours and Lolimar's. There's a lot of CS students in the SC2 community doing their thing, and teamliquid seems to be the community site of choice for them. Please let me know if you run into things that cannot be expressed (but should be) in the proposed syntax. | ||
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Presence
1 Post
One thing: Calldown: Extra Supplies doesn't actually grant you extra supplies. | ||
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dakenho
United States6 Posts
10 overlord 13 spawning pool > queen > Spawn Larvae 14 extractor > transfer 3 15 overlord 16 zergling 17 zergling 18 zergling 22 baneling nest 22 overlord 23 zergling 24 zergling 25 zergling 26 zergling 27 zergling 28 Baneling 28 Baneling 28 Baneling 28 Baneling 28 Baneling 28 Baneling 28 Baneling 28 Baneling as it turns out you can get more banelings that you can zerglings, in this example I morph 8 zerglings into banlings while only having 6 zerglings | ||
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awang0830
83 Posts
8 pylon 9 probe* 12 gateway 13 probe* 15 assimilator > put 3 on gas 16 pylon 17 probe* 18 cybernetics core > warpgate 18 pylon 18 zealot 20 assimilator > put 3 on gas 20 pylon 20 stalker 23 robotics facility 23 stalker 23 pylon 25 stargate 25 zealot 26 immortal Job 23 Pylon could not be scheduled. There is insufficient supply. The trigger supply count for this job is 23, but at this point in the build order the achieved supply count is only 25. | ||
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icezar
Germany240 Posts
On November 26 2010 23:17 CarbonTwelve wrote: Not sure what icezar's reason was, but I can imagine that it's worth doing because you want to delay consuming the drone longer so you get more mining time out of it. Short: i want to delay it so i can have just a few more minerals Long: I was testing something with 13pool 12 extractor but i noticed that spawn larva will make me lose a larva because it will pop just a few seconds before. When i did 13ext 12pool i was just short a few minerals for the queen so it will delay my spawn larvae by too much. A delay on the Extractor would make it perfect. I just discover yesterday that you can loose a larva when the larva from the queen pop. What i mean is you have larva at 4:00 so the next from hatch should be at 4:15, if your queen inject larva spawn pop at 4:14 you just lost a larva :-((((((((((((( What is more frustrating is that this timing is off 40 sec for larvae pop with 15 sec larvae production so whatever you do you will delay either the pop larva or the hatch one :-((((((((((((((( All the builds that i try are larvae caped at the beginning so losing 1 more larva is so frustrating | ||
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icezar
Germany240 Posts
# Startup mining delay = 2 seconds 10 Overlord 10 Extractor Trick 15 Extractor > +3 14 Spawning Pool 15 Overlord 16 Queen > Spawn Larvae [auto] 18 Zergling @100 gas take 2 off gas 19 Metabolic boost 22 Hatchery 21 Overlord 23 zergling [4] 28 +2 on gas 29 Lair Lair is delayed too much | ||
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