I have been trying to test this build but I am not nearly skilled enough to know if its viable at higher level play. (im high plat)
9 OL 15 Hatch (on long maps do this at natural, for even safer play do in main) 14 Gas 13 Pool Drone to 18. Start lair immediately, throw down spine crawler immediately, and start queen immediately, take 1 pair of zerglings immediately.
If done correctly, the queen, spine crawler, lair, and zerglings all come around the same time.
20 OL
From here you can transition into fast mutas or fast hydras. I have some replays where I tested this against my protoss friend of equal skill and I seemed to beat him even when he 2gated in some cases. I don't think they show much though because of my low-levelness.
Is this build viable at all?
Edit:
Instead of making a new topic on this, here is a ZvsZ style of the build.
I opted to open with 2 hatch lair and manage to defend early ling harrass while getting fast mutas and exploiting a timing window early game to win.
You can see the power of this 1base build. Although he sends early ling, using some zerg sim city, I manage to hold just fine. His next ling attack cripples him as 2 banelings wipe his whole army less 2 lings in the red. My queen cleans up. The mutas come out and instead of the 5, I can only manage 3, and a late 4th (due to spending 100 gas on 2 banelings). I fly over and start harrassing, and keep pumping mutas. He gives up after I eat his queens. I was aiming to expand during the mutas.
Fast hydra is pretty much suicide. Colossi are going to walk over you so hard you're not going to know what hit you. I'm not sure if Colossi are OP or hydra are UP, but there's definitely an issue here. ZvP, mutalisks are literally the only viable choice imo. Fortunately, muta do marvelously vs toss, so I guess it works out. If he starts pumping phoenix, just grab some corruptors to prevent them from kiting and you're beautiful. The toss' only option is to fill his base with cannons, at which point you expand, or he'll start massing stalkers, at which point you mass speedlings. Biggest issue with FE + lair is simply how far behind your income is likely to be vs a macro'ing toss. Early game zerg's macro is utter garbage, so you're spreading yourself pretty thin. This can work, though, if you manage to do a lot of damage to the toss' mineral line, but since everyone and their grandmother goes ling/muta ZvP, chances are he's going to be prepared for it.
"I'm not sure if Colossi are OP or hydra are UP, but there's definitely an issue here. ZvP, mutalisks are literally the only viable choice imo."
- I disagree. First of all, of course Hydras are gonna lose to Collossi because the latter is a direct counter to the former. No one is gonna complain that Roaches are UP or Immortals are OP when they face each other because of the same logic. Secondly, hydralisks are very potent against a Protoss army especially if it's just gateway units. Hydras can even fend-off armies with Collossi if the positioning is good. If the Collossi numbers are too high, add corruptors or roaches.
But back to your point, I have certain questions about your build. Why is a fast lair tech necessary and why do you need fast mutas or hydras? I personally feel that these units require a strong economy as a backbone and you won't be able to support them as well compared to if you get a lair a little later but with a stronger economy and more drones.
Second, in relation to my first point, I think that you should always get an expansion especially if you're trying to get fast tier 2 units. Having one base simply is not enough especially since the units you're after are gas heavy.You won't be able to get a lot of units even if you get a fast lair. If I were your opponent and I see you going for one base, I'd assume that you're going for a timing attack that I definitely prepare for. Plus, defending it successfully will give me a huge macro lead. IMO, one base zerg play is really difficult when you're against Protoss/Terran who can chrono boost probes or get Mules.
Third, I don't think crawlers should be part of your build since it depends on what your opponent is getting. You're just wasting a drone and minerals if you get one and he doesn't even bother to attack. This is why I feel like you should be getting ling speed instead of an uber fast lair. You can get just scout with 2 zerglings and drone up or make units, depending on what you see. Plus, speedlings can deny scouting.
I know it feels like I'm going against your build entirely but I guess I just don't see the point of making an extremely fast lair. I do commend your initiative to make a new build but please remember that in doing so, you have to ask the general idea of what you plan to accomplish. Your example, getting fast lair for fast hydras or mutas, I feel is quite lacking. The better goal, I feel, is you're trying to get fast hydras/mutas for a timing push. But still, you have to check if your economy can support is as well. It feels like a pseudo-all-in build cause if you get hydras or mutas early to attack and it fails, you'll be at a huge disadvantage.
Try posting a replay, I wanna see how your game went. I'm a diamond Zerg, btw.
Well I think the point of the build is to get a fast lair as well as an expansion very quickly, it doesn't matter if you are going fast hydras or mutas it depends on the person utilizing the build. I mean there is a lot you can do, burrowed roaches, overlord drop, nydus, hydras, mutas, infestors, baneling speed or ov speed for scouting those wall offs. I think you are right in a lot of things sanchito, but I still think the build is viable for fast lair which opens up a lot of options for zerg.
I didn't quite get the whole intention of doing this to get a fast expansion since he even considered in his build to get a hatchery in the main. It's quite obvious that getting a lair will open options for Zerg but I guess my main problem with it is the lack of an economy to back it up. Here's a video from day9 that somewhat shows the importance of the economy to back up a specific build or strategy. It's a little long but I think this is one of the most useful videos that he has casted.
There's no need for a fast lair mainly because it's an almost instant lose to fast voids due to a lack of queens or evo chamber (for spores) And fending off early pressure without lings speed is not desirable
This BO might be good for a BoX series, but as a straight up build for laddering, it's really works great or horribly due to the chance effect
Going for a FE, and then throwing away the economic advantage you gain by getting queens is kinda silly, imo.
The reason you go 14 hatch is to gain an advantage through your economy, but if you don't have those queens out to pump out extra larva, a Toss player chrono boosting probes is going to be able to keep up no prob... And a Toss who responds to your FE with a quick Nexus of his own will probably end up ahead.
Sure, you can get some really fast tech out, but without the economy to support it, who cares? You might get 7 mutas out. Big whoop. You can't really focus down cannons until you have 10+.
The other really important thing about queens is creep spread. Sure, you get one queen - but you have to choose between injects and spreading creep. In a more typical 14 hatch, you'll start 2 queens at the same time, and then start your lair and a 3rd queen as soon as they finish. Now you're spreading creep and injecting both of your hatcheries with every cycle.
Also, with 3 queens you're safe from void ray plays. Not the case if you go for a turbo-lair.
I'm sure you can catch equally skilled players with a fast tech build sometimes, but in my opinion, its pretty all-in. If it doesn't work, you're going to come out of it way behind.
And 14 hatch should do fine against 2 gate with the new zealot build times. Unless its proxied, or on a map like Steppes, 2 gate shouldn't scare you at all.
Let me clarify, that this build is meant for an early harass and map control, sometimes I like throwing down a nydus network in the center of the map. Let me get some replays of this. And you guys need to understand that you get lair before ling speed, you could easily have some hydras out to defend against void rays. I'll edit OP with some replays.
As MrBitter mentioned, 2 gate vs 15 hatch 14 pool is defendable. Your build looks fine except that you got gas super early. I disagree with 14 gas at this point. You will find that if you wait until 16-18 supply to get your first gas, you will have enough minerals to get at least 1 queen immediately.
Another point of concern for this build (fast hydra/muta) is that you will be limited by gas. I don't know when you plan to get your 2nd, 3rd, 4th gas, but if you are going quick Lair with 4 gas, you will find that you have very few drones mining minerals.
I personally like a hatch first build. I go 15 hatch 14 pool 22 gas. Lings into Lair into 3rd base, roach/hydra/infestor, quick ultras, etc. It's a very versatile, adaptable opening that forces your opponent to be aggressive.
On October 11 2010 14:56 denzelz wrote: As MrBitter mentioned, 2 gate vs 15 hatch 14 pool is defendable. Your build looks fine except that you got gas super early. I disagree with 14 gas at this point. You will find that if you wait until 16-18 supply to get your first gas, you will have enough minerals to get at least 1 queen immediately.
Another point of concern for this build (fast hydra/muta) is that you will be limited by gas. I don't know when you plan to get your 2nd, 3rd, 4th gas, but if you are going quick Lair with 4 gas, you will find that you have very few drones mining minerals.
I personally like a hatch first build. I go 15 hatch 14 pool 22 gas. Lings into Lair into 3rd base, roach/hydra/infestor, quick ultras, etc. It's a very versatile, adaptable opening that forces your opponent to be aggressive.
This guy knows what he is talking about.
By going for a fast hatch and then teching, you're basically nullifying the advantage you could get from either strategy. People dont seem to realize that going for a fast hatch delays your economy by 300 minerals, that's 6 drones. If you dont capitalize on that hatch by getting a queen and pumping drones out of it, there is literally no reason to have expanded, you're basically just putting yourself behind by 300 minerals for no reason.
So, check it out: If you were to get a pool/gas at 14, build a queen, drone up to 20+ supply, get a lair and then build a hatch, your economy would be far stronger and you'd reach lair at about the same time.
Your build as it is makes no sense and accomplishes nothing aside from shooting yourself in the foot a few times.
You wont have any map control with your nydus because you wont have enough economy to generate an army strong enough to control anything. 3 Fast hydralisks are not useful, neither are 3 fast mutas.
On October 11 2010 14:56 denzelz wrote: As MrBitter mentioned, 2 gate vs 15 hatch 14 pool is defendable. Your build looks fine except that you got gas super early. I disagree with 14 gas at this point. You will find that if you wait until 16-18 supply to get your first gas, you will have enough minerals to get at least 1 queen immediately.
Another point of concern for this build (fast hydra/muta) is that you will be limited by gas. I don't know when you plan to get your 2nd, 3rd, 4th gas, but if you are going quick Lair with 4 gas, you will find that you have very few drones mining minerals.
I personally like a hatch first build. I go 15 hatch 14 pool 22 gas. Lings into Lair into 3rd base, roach/hydra/infestor, quick ultras, etc. It's a very versatile, adaptable opening that forces your opponent to be aggressive.
This guy knows what he is talking about.
By going for a fast hatch and then teching, you're basically nullifying the advantage you could get from either strategy. People dont seem to realize that going for a fast hatch delays your economy by 300 minerals, that's 6 drones. If you dont capitalize on that hatch by getting a queen and pumping drones out of it, there is literally no reason to have expanded, you're basically just putting yourself behind by 300 minerals for no reason.
So, check it out: If you were to get a pool/gas at 14, build a queen, drone up to 20+ supply, get a lair and then build a hatch, your economy would be far stronger and you'd reach lair at about the same time.
Your build as it is makes no sense and accomplishes nothing aside from shooting yourself in the foot a few times.
You wont have any map control with your nydus because you wont have enough economy to generate an army strong enough to control anything. 3 Fast hydralisks are not useful, neither are 3 fast mutas.
I see how that makes sense. However, I find myself using all my larva in this build, isn't the only thing I'm delaying only a few drones and ling speed. The queen comes out relatively soon (right as your second hatch finishes, your pool finishes, and you have enough minerals to get a queen/tech to lair, at this point in the build you should of known if your opponent is going to do some early pressure). At no point am I initially sitting on larva. Also you drone to 18, and the second hatch in main expands your supply to 20, allowing you to squeeze in a queen and a ling (if you take a spine crawler at 18) before your 20 OL.
just stick to normal 14 extractor 14pool , its gonna help you more , you will learn how to micro banelings and you wont get any weird losses cause of a weird 2 hatch build. you will just get weird losses when you run into banelings. EDIT: replay is ZvZ but title is ZvP wtf?
I see how that makes sense. However, I find myself using all my larva in this build, isn't the only thing I'm delaying only a few drones and ling speed. The queen comes out relatively soon (right as your second hatch finishes, your pool finishes, and you have enough minerals to get a queen/tech to lair, at this point in the build you should of known if your opponent is going to do some early pressure). At no point am I initially sitting on larva. Also you drone to 18, and the second hatch in main expands your supply to 20, allowing you to squeeze in a queen and a ling (if you take a spine crawler at 18) before your 20 OL.
That's not relatively soon, that's ridiculously late. Drones have a snowball effect, having 5 extra drones early in the game will allow you to build more drones a few minutes later etc. I know it's difficult to recognize this at low level play but seriously, you're so far behind if you do this.
And hold on, you're double hatching your main and then teching? Why on earth would you do that? You cant support tech off of two geysers, you're going to be floating larva with just one hatch!
On October 11 2010 14:56 denzelz wrote: As MrBitter mentioned, 2 gate vs 15 hatch 14 pool is defendable. Your build looks fine except that you got gas super early. I disagree with 14 gas at this point. You will find that if you wait until 16-18 supply to get your first gas, you will have enough minerals to get at least 1 queen immediately.
Another point of concern for this build (fast hydra/muta) is that you will be limited by gas. I don't know when you plan to get your 2nd, 3rd, 4th gas, but if you are going quick Lair with 4 gas, you will find that you have very few drones mining minerals.
I personally like a hatch first build. I go 15 hatch 14 pool 22 gas. Lings into Lair into 3rd base, roach/hydra/infestor, quick ultras, etc. It's a very versatile, adaptable opening that forces your opponent to be aggressive.
This guy knows what he is talking about.
By going for a fast hatch and then teching, you're basically nullifying the advantage you could get from either strategy. People dont seem to realize that going for a fast hatch delays your economy by 300 minerals, that's 6 drones. If you dont capitalize on that hatch by getting a queen and pumping drones out of it, there is literally no reason to have expanded, you're basically just putting yourself behind by 300 minerals for no reason.
So, check it out: If you were to get a pool/gas at 14, build a queen, drone up to 20+ supply, get a lair and then build a hatch, your economy would be far stronger and you'd reach lair at about the same time.
Your build as it is makes no sense and accomplishes nothing aside from shooting yourself in the foot a few times.
You wont have any map control with your nydus because you wont have enough economy to generate an army strong enough to control anything. 3 Fast hydralisks are not useful, neither are 3 fast mutas.
I see how that makes sense. However, I find myself using all my larva in this build, isn't the only thing I'm delaying only a few drones and ling speed. The queen comes out relatively soon (right as your second hatch finishes, your pool finishes, and you have enough minerals to get a queen/tech to lair, at this point in the build you should of known if your opponent is going to do some early pressure). At no point am I initially sitting on larva. Also you drone to 18, and the second hatch in main expands your supply to 20, allowing you to squeeze in a queen and a ling (if you take a spine crawler at 18) before your 20 OL.
You're using all the larva you have, but you're not getting the benefit of that extra queen, and the 4 extra larva she gives you every 30 seconds.
Edit: The guys above really say all this better than I have. ^^ Take note. It's good info.
an early inbase-hatch is quite useless in general since with a queen and one hatch you'll be using all your larvae and keeping your money low anyway. Why bother with a second hatch? I don't get it.
really dont see the point of rushing lair vs P. roach speed is nice and hydras are decent to defend but overall Z lair tech just doesnt pack the punch it did in bw where a P really feared mutas or lurkers.
your hugely vulnerable to any kind of fast collosus builds, cant do anything against a expo of the P, and hatch first at expo is very risky anyways with the threat of forge first builds and hatch inbase seems kinda useless.
also 1basing doesnt sound like anything i want to do. nothing keeps the P from pulling ahead in whatever way he chooses.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156641.jpg)
