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Sun Tzu on Z & T

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Exathor
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia56 Posts
September 28 2010 04:26 GMT
#1
WARNING: LONG POST

Recently, I was fascinated upon reading Sun Tzu's Art of War, especially chapter 11, Nine Terrains, which I could really relate to with SC2. I was intrigued on how two thousand year old text was able to show the reason for terran's imba, and I believe that if we delve deep into the text, we are able to isolate the several key points that make TvZ so OP because of the particular the way that the Terran mechanic uses terrain.

(Btw, this is NOT a QQ thread but rather an objective view on terran imbalance with regard to Sun Tzu's military principles, hopefully upon reading the rest of this you will be able to see the bigger picture, that it's not just about terran's unit X being imba against zerg build Y and nerf it bla bla bla)

Firstly, what is terrain?
Terrain is not simply Terran with an "I" in it, and it is not just the "lie of the land". Terrain encompasses a much bigger picture than that, and can be broken down into 9 different types of terrain, which we will be discussing today.

(Note: With each type of terrain mentioned in Art of war, the definition is given in the first quote box, while the second is Sun Tzu's strategy on how to deal with that particular type of terrain. Anything in a quote box is from the book I have, everything else is me talking.)



1.
When the feudal lords fight in their own territory, it is 'dispersive terrain'

In SC2 terms, the dispersive terrain is one's own base, or any other area that is manipulated by YOU to give YOU the advantage in ATTACKING.
For terran, it is their turtle; for zerg, it is MEANT to be their creep.

Sun Tzu's strat:
On dispersive terrain do not engage the enemy

This is quite obvious especially against terran: you would never want to throw your forces against a turtle or wall. However the same cannot be said for Zerg. Although their dispersive terrain mechanism is meant to be creep, it gives no other obvious benefit (e.g. regen) apart from speed. This causes Terran to have clear advantage in dispersive terrain more than Zerg.
Note also that Terran creates dispersive terrain wherever they deploy tanks/bunkers, while Zerg has to spread their creep from a central location, which is much slower and less mobile.
In BW, Zerg could create dispersive terrain by using Dark Swarm, but since it was removed, another arm of the Zerg's limited arsenal has been cut off.


2.
When they enter someone else's territory, but not deeply, it is 'light terrain'.

Light terrain can be defined as one's expo, ramp or static D range, i.e. not deep in the enemy's main.

Sun Tzu's strat:
On light terrain do not stop.

This is all very well for Terran, as all they have to do is walk pass the Zerg's choke, while it is virtually impossible for Zerg to move past Terran's light terrain because of the wallin.
In terms of units, Terran has several early game units that can quite easily waltz pass the Zerg's light terrain area, while lings just fail against walls & bunks.


3.
If when we occupy it, it will be advantageous to us while if they occupy it, it will be advantageous to them, it is 'contentious terrain'

This is defined as areas which can give either player profit or benefit, e.g. gold expos & Xel'Naga Watchtowers.

Sun Tzu's strat:
On contentious terrain do not attack.

As mentioned before, Terrans can manipulate terrain to their advantage, especially by deploying tanks in those central contentious areas near watchtowers. However, the current map pool has these contentious terrains set as easily accessible areas, or travesible terrain (see point 4).


4.
When we can go and they can also come, it is 'traversable terrain'

Continuing from before, traversable terrain is any area that is open and easily accessible. Traversable terrain is Zerg's bread and butter, as they need nice big spaces to perform good surrounds etc. However, as mentioned earlier Blizzard seems to have combined contentious terrain and traversable terrain in current ladder maps to create Xel'Naga Watchtowers and gold expos (notice how both are usually easily accessible?). This means death for any Zerg who attacks contentious terrain held by Terrans, despite the need for Zerg to attack in traversable terrain.

Sun Tzu strat:
On traversable terrain do not allow your forces to become isolated

Terran manages to break this principle by allowing their forces to just chill near watchtowers/center of map and still come out on top because of the range of Terran units (i.e. siege tanks 13 range, vikings 9 range, massive sight given by watchtowers)


5. Focal terrain (not applicable in SC2, as it deals with alliances)


6.
When one penetrates deeply into enemy territory, bypassing numerous cities, it is 'heavy terrain'

In SC2 terms, it is pushing/attacking deep into enemy base, bypassing many expos. Because of Zerg's lack of wallins, nearly any push from Terran can easily progress from light to heavy terrain. Besides that, Terran has a plethora of options to chose from when doing drops/pushes into the enemy base (e.g. MMM drop, ghost drop, thor drop, hellion drop, mass ravens etc.). Zerg, however, has only really 3 options: Doom drop, muta harass and Nydus, while all other pushes are not easy because of terran turtle. Muta and nydus is easily countered by terran, while doom drops, although sometimes successful, but failure in a doom drop will put the zerg behind in supply and larvae.

Sun Tzu's strat:
On heavy terrain plunder for provisions.

Sun Tzu says this because ofter, when an army is deep in enemy territory, there will be no/little supply from the outside. Terran again breaks this principle with medivacs and SCVs, which heal and repair and army to full health extremely quickly. Zerg, however, have no such liberty, and can't even use queen transfusion properly because of their lack of ms outside of creep.


7.
Where there are mountains and forests, ravines and defiles, wetlands and marshes, wherever the road is difficult to negotiate, it is 'entrapping terrain'.

Anywhere that slows an army down. For Zerg, it is evident especially for hydra roach armies that anywhere without creep is, relatively speaking, entrapping terrain. For hydras, off creep speed is so slow even with the upgrade that it is hard to get good surrounds with mass hydra.
Also, terran have the benefit of stimming that levels the playing field even on creep.

Sun Tzu's strat:
On entrapping terrain, move through quickly.

Zerg's fungal growth ability is meant to create entrapping terrain for terran balls, but because every terran unit is ranged, they do not even have to move through quickly to continue attacking.
Besides that, marauders' concussive shells create entrapping terrain by slowing targets, another sign that terran are masters at terrain manipulation.


8.
Where the entrance is constricted, the return is circuitous, and with a small number they can strike our masses, it is 'encircled terrain'.

The Terran turtle/wall literally SCREAMS encircled terrain. Wallin the ramp, put down some bunkers and turrets, deploy some tanks (which are the units implied in "small number they can strike our masses" with siege splash) and suddenly the terran's main becomes a virtual fortress of encircled terrain.

Sun Tzu's strat:
On encircled terrain use strategy.

Zerg chokes are unable to create half-decent encircled terrain situations, and thus Terrans can scrap this advice of using strategy and simply 1a2a3a to victory. For Zerg, they really have to exert all their tactics and strategy just to break a choke with bling bombs, hydra/roach spread to reduce tank splash, muta sniping tanks/ghosts, infestor micro etc, while at the same time having to be the macro intensive race that Zerg is, or else Zerg will fall behind on eco.


9.
Where if one fights with intensity he will survive but if he does not fight with intensity he will perish, it is 'fatal terrain'

Immediately my thoughts went to stim. What better way is there to "fight with intensity to survive" than stim?

Sun Tzu's strat:
On fatal terrain engage the enemy.

For Terran this is logical: stim --> a-click.
For Zerg, they do not have any skills or abilities that swing DPS in their favour in the heat of battle, only mediocre ups. Even Protoss has guardian shield that lowers enemy DPS, increasing their own effective DPS.



Conclusion
Hopefully you are still alive after this lengthy, lengthy wall of text, but hopefully this has quite definitely CONFIRMED TvZ imbalance, that it is just not a matter of stronger units but the ability of Terran to manipulate the terrain to give them the advantage. Of course there are other issues with rushes, scouting and timings, but the main thing here is that Terran has the upper hand in any army clash as Zerg are unable to manipulate terrain anymore with the removal of Dark Swarm and the REAL Queen, as well as the current map pool which disfavors Zerg.
metaldragon
Profile Joined October 2009
United States251 Posts
September 28 2010 04:41 GMT
#2
I Will Likely Get a Warning but this post is just bad bad bad.

After the last patch TvZ is looking pretty balanced.


Looks like someone needs some lessons form MasterAsia imo

User was warned for this post
sikyon
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada1045 Posts
September 28 2010 04:44 GMT
#3
Hypothesis: Terrain makes ZvT imbalanced because Terran can manipulate terrain very advantageously while zerg cannot.

Unbiased test: PvT with forcefields.

Result: PvT is not imba in favor of toss just because they can manipulate terrain at will.

Hypothesis disproved, Scientific method >> Sun Tzu.

But in a more direct tangent, your explanations are a giant stretch. "Intensity" = stim? No. That's just a unit mechanic. You have a giant confirmation bias here where you're reading Sun Tzu, thinking he's a military genius and then trying to pidgeonhole everything into his theories. You might be able to explain away some things with the art of war but it's so vague that it's very difficult to make non-trivial predictions with it (yes I have read it). Please set aside your availability heuristic and take a look at your analysis from a point of view which doesn't start with "I KNOW ZvT is imba and I KNOW I can explain it with Sun Tzu"

And before anyone starts poking at me, yes, I am ~1000 points in diamond, and I do play random and I'm not saying ZvT doesn't favor T at least in the effort department
Xynthos
Profile Joined August 2010
Greece4 Posts
September 28 2010 04:45 GMT
#4
gg

User was warned for this post
NoOdelZ
Profile Joined July 2010
United States14 Posts
September 28 2010 04:45 GMT
#5
I finished rereading The Art of War about a month ago, working on a VoD series called SC2: The Art of War.

Been a little busy to finish the first ep, but it's near completion.

Glad to see someone else realized the similarities, however I don't believe it's limited or specific to Z & T, rather much can be applied to SC2 in general.
"Is there no redemption for the abolished?"
Bair
Profile Joined May 2010
United States698 Posts
September 28 2010 04:46 GMT
#6
As some say, if you have nothing good to say, do not say it at all.

I liked the post OP, but I do think that you are a tad biased. All in all though, the effort you put in shows.
In Roaches I Rust.
Slago
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada726 Posts
September 28 2010 04:47 GMT
#7
I think this is a solid post, and i love sun tzu so 2 gold stars
I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum and I'm all out of... ah forget it
iEchoic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1776 Posts
September 28 2010 04:50 GMT
#8
This kind of sounds like one of those palm readings or telepathy displays where people reach really hard to make everything sound relevant. Sun Tzu quotes are interesting to read, though.
vileEchoic -- clanvile.com
Ruthless
Profile Joined August 2008
United States492 Posts
September 28 2010 05:04 GMT
#9
cold reading
Exathor
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia56 Posts
September 28 2010 05:12 GMT
#10
sorry if my post was a little biased, but in regard to cold reading, are you saying that Sun Tzu wrote the art of war as a form of cold reading, that his principles can be applied in most situations? Cos that's what I think as well, but then I feel that the way he groups his thoughts and categorizes the elements of a battle quite completely, which is why I used Sun Tzu as a more all-encompassing approach.
As a side note, the 'cold readings' of Sun Tzu are probably the reason why Art of War is often used in business strategy
Shusaku
Profile Joined February 2010
United States24 Posts
September 28 2010 06:02 GMT
#11
It feels to me as if you took each terrain type and only sought to examine how it must be an advantage for Terran. I don't think it is that simple. These principles apply to warfare in general, and thus to each race in the game. I liked your point about dispersive terrain and how dark swarm enabled Zerg to create such terrain anywhere. I had never really thought of it in those terms... I think every Zerg misses swarm dearly.
tetramaster
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada253 Posts
September 28 2010 06:11 GMT
#12
On September 28 2010 15:02 Shusaku wrote:
It feels to me as if you took each terrain type and only sought to examine how it must be an advantage for Terran. I don't think it is that simple. These principles apply to warfare in general, and thus to each race in the game. I liked your point about dispersive terrain and how dark swarm enabled Zerg to create such terrain anywhere. I had never really thought of it in those terms... I think every Zerg misses swarm dearly.


The fact that terrans got the rough equivalent of the skill in SC2 makes absolutely no sense at all.

Not sure what the hell the developers were thinking
squintz
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada217 Posts
September 28 2010 06:12 GMT
#13
You can wall with Zerg.. Evo chambers and some crawlers. Heck you can even move crawlers to let forces in and out!
FunnelC4kes
Profile Joined July 2010
Ireland462 Posts
September 28 2010 06:20 GMT
#14
Great to see you working things out. Sun Tzu's works are fantastic, and can be applied to anything in life, much like Musashi's Book of Five Rings.

However, because of it's Taoist roots, one must keep in mind the taoist understanding of knowledge:

"Those who know the least speak loudest. Those who know the Tao say nothing, for they understand they know nothing."

I don't mean to be critical, for thinking in the abstract terms, as you have done, leads one to great philosophical insights. However, I agree with sikyon, that you may be thinking to strictly. If you pay too close attention to the trees, you may lose yourself in the forest.

Anyways, keep up the good work, but never settle for thinking you "know" something.
Scholar. Shaman. Starcraft Enthusiast.
ezdez
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia28 Posts
September 28 2010 06:26 GMT
#15
On September 28 2010 15:02 Shusaku wrote:
It feels to me as if you took each terrain type and only sought to examine how it must be an advantage for Terran. I don't think it is that simple. These principles apply to warfare in general, and thus to each race in the game. I liked your point about dispersive terrain and how dark swarm enabled Zerg to create such terrain anywhere. I had never really thought of it in those terms... I think every Zerg misses swarm dearly.


i agree with shusaku - the art of war is suppose to encompass the exactly that, the art of war.. and as such, these terrain types exists for each race. the differences are based on how these terrain types are used for each race is up to the general of that army.

how you apply these principles will in the end game show how good you are at controlling your army, and imba opinions show only your own mastery of one race over another.

i believe the art of war also teaches, or at least attempts to teach you to know yourself first. you note that the open space is where your units should move through quickly as they are most vulnerable. having stim doesn't eliminate this space, but rather is a way for MM to move through this space quickly. ling/roach speed and charge/blink are the zerg and protoss' answer to these respectively.

i think it would be better to use the art of war to improve your gameplay rather than focus on what is your perception of imba based on as one poster said "pigeonholing" the theories into your opinion
Calmwinds
Profile Joined July 2010
57 Posts
September 28 2010 06:27 GMT
#16
Although I certainly applaud you to look for parallels, why does every person who has read Sun Tzu suddenly start seeing parallels in everything they see? Some person needs to right a strict interpretive text. Sun Tzu's domain only goes so far, and starcraft 2 is not one of them.

Sun Tzu is not everywhere. But illusions of pattern and parallel sure are.
Acritter
Profile Joined August 2010
Syria7637 Posts
September 28 2010 06:27 GMT
#17
So, what does Sun Tzu say about macro mechanics?

I like his work as much as anyone, but it's philosophical principle and can't be applied mathematically to a problem as you have attempted. This, more than anything, just supports the concept that the maps are the main problem here.
dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria
Strutswell
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada47 Posts
September 28 2010 07:01 GMT
#18
On September 28 2010 13:45 NoOdelZ wrote:
I finished rereading The Art of War about a month ago, working on a VoD series called SC2: The Art of War.

Been a little busy to finish the first ep, but it's near completion.

Glad to see someone else realized the similarities, however I don't believe it's limited or specific to Z & T, rather much can be applied to SC2 in general.


I would be very interested to watch this series and see how you have applied Sun Tzu's teachings to sc2 strategy. Some of the above tidbits are fun to read, but it was over-shadowed by the OP's ranting about balance....

To be able to identify/classify these terrain types as the various situations we encounter in the game can possibly allow me to play a little bit better, just from recognizing what situation I am in and how to take advantage of it.

Hope you will post a link in a new thread, look forward to it
Why's there a pylon in my base?
csfield
Profile Joined October 2008
United States206 Posts
September 28 2010 07:03 GMT
#19
On September 28 2010 15:27 Calmwinds wrote:
Although I certainly applaud you to look for parallels, why does every person who has read Sun Tzu suddenly start seeing parallels in everything they see? Some person needs to right a strict interpretive text. Sun Tzu's domain only goes so far, and starcraft 2 is not one of them.

Sun Tzu is not everywhere. But illusions of pattern and parallel sure are.


wrong

the principles described by sun tzu apply to rts games including sc2

do you really think "attack where your opponent is weak", "only attack when you have an advantage", etc. have no relevance to sc2?
I know that I have never once considered how my TV viewing habits impact the progression of civilization. --Bibbit
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-28 07:04:33
September 28 2010 07:03 GMT
#20
does the op realize that sun tzu has the 5 elements to a war and the earth (the field of battle and terrain) is considered the least important?
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