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I just played a game on desert oasis ZvP. I was on the top, and I noticed P was going an early forge, and his scouting probe skipped my base - I followed him to see a few cannons going up north of my base (under the cliffs).
Before my lings could get out, his probe made his way into my base to put down cannons behind my mineral line - sharing the pylon power of the north pylon. If I tried to attack the probe or the pylon, the north cannons would make short work of my units.
It takes a long time for pulled workers to make it down to where his pylon was going down, so I don't think I could have reasonably stopped the first cannons. If I pulled 5 workers, he just has to put down a second pylon - then my only choice is to pull all my workers. Once the cannons are placed, they're protected by the pylons so I can't get a good surround.
I honestly cannot come up with a theoretical way to beat this.
Thanks for any advice.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-151949.jpg)
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WOAH, ok first of all, that cannon rush would've been sooo much more effective if he just had the pylon at the rocks (so your lings have to run the long way round) then put cannons in your base using that pylon (getting the econ advantage at the start).
I guess the only thing you could've done was send your drone out faster to kill his probe, ~kill the probe~ so important. uhm, other than that you might want to post this on blizzards forums to show them the potential for such powerful cheese from protoss on this map. (the rocks probably doesn't fix the map but make it more broken in this case)
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I think you might possibly have killed the first cannon if you pulled drones immediately, but I don't think that would have been the best option.
What I think you should have done is planted two spine crawlers the moment your spawning pool finished. The cannon in your base would have finished a few seconds before yours, but spines are stronger than cannons and you'd have two attacking one.
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Perhaps you could get 6-8 lings out, pull your drones back, (make sure you have 300 minerals) send all your lings to his base to kill his probes and then expo at the high yield. With no probes and a bunch of immobile cannons all you have to worry about is him making cannons at your new expo, just use your drones to stop any pylons thrown down near by.
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You saw his probe coming with your overlord, you saw where he were going with his probe with your overlord at the ramp... You did nothing about it.
You see that probe at the 2minute, but go there first after 50seconds~.
If you would have gone there directly, it would look diffrent.
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On September 26 2010 02:40 Alzadar wrote:
I think you might possibly have killed the first cannon if you pulled drones immediately, but I don't think that would have been the best option.
What I think you should have done is planted two spine crawlers the moment your spawning pool finished. The cannon in your base would have finished a few seconds before yours, but spines are stronger than cannons and you'd have two attacking one.
I thought about this, but what's to stop him from putting down a second cannon? That'd force me to keep up with his cannons with spine crawlers
On September 26 2010 02:44 HappyCakes wrote:
You saw his probe coming with your overlord, you saw where he were going with his probe with your overlord at the ramp... You did nothing about it.
You see that probe at the 2minute, but go there first after 50seconds~.
If you would have gone there directly, it would look diffrent.
I saw it, but I didn't know what he was doing - I thought he might try to cannon my choke - I didn't suspect his plan at all.
Killing a probe with drones is right next to impossible thanks to mineral walk - and pulling drones to go down there and harass him takes SO long thanks to the crazy walk distance.
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I think all you had to do there was a-move some drones to surround and kill his probe as it headed towards your mineral line. Even if you'd scouted earlier, I wouldn't bother killing the lower cannons/pylon until a lot later, as they can't hurt you directly and the mining cost is high.
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I saw it, but I didn't know what he was doing - I thought he might try to cannon my choke - I didn't suspect his plan at all.
Killing a probe with drones is right next to impossible thanks to mineral walk - and pulling drones to go down there and harass him takes SO long thanks to the crazy walk distance.
Well know you do.
Pulling 3drones to kill the pylon right when it comes up should work.
Maybe not, those got loads of hp. ><
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On September 26 2010 02:53 jaj22 wrote:
I think all you had to do there was a-move some drones to surround and kill his probe as it headed towards your mineral line. Even if you'd scouted earlier, I wouldn't bother killing the lower cannons/pylon until a lot later, as they can't hurt you directly and the mining cost is high.
Well, it's REALLY hard to kill a worker of someone who knows what they're doing. He can walk through my units to the mineral line, and then it's just like 3 spaces to where he needs to put down the cannon. I'd be gambling the entire match on the hope that I can stop him from going those 3 spaces.
On September 26 2010 02:53 HappyCakes wrote:Show nested quote +
I saw it, but I didn't know what he was doing - I thought he might try to cannon my choke - I didn't suspect his plan at all.
Killing a probe with drones is right next to impossible thanks to mineral walk - and pulling drones to go down there and harass him takes SO long thanks to the crazy walk distance.
Well know you do. Pulling 3drones to kill the pylon right when it comes up should work.
But then he just has to put down a second pylon right next to the first... and I have to pull more drones than he's investing in pylons.
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But then he just has to put down a second pylon right next to the first... and I have to pull more drones than he's investing in pylons.
So you basically say "If anyone build in my base, I won't do anything about it."?
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On September 26 2010 03:10 HappyCakes wrote:Show nested quote +
But then he just has to put down a second pylon right next to the first... and I have to pull more drones than he's investing in pylons.
So you basically say "If anyone build in my base, I won't do anything about it."?
If he's building in my base it's a lot easier to deal with. This is way outside my base.
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If he's building in my base it's a lot easier to deal with. This is way outside my base.
Hows that? It's the same procedure.
If you would have pulled Xdrones the time you saw his probe going there. (From now on, when you know about that strategy that is.) You would be there right about when he puts down the pylon.
He either got to do A) Another Pylon (delaying his Cannon) B) Go Cannon and possible lose his pylon there for an useless cannon.
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I wish you couldn't walk through drones like you can. Can't surround for crap.
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Man, the cheese just get's better and better as the weeks go by.
I'm not sure what I would have done in that situation, besides going into some sort of bm rage before I left. Blizzard should put all the cannon rushers into their own cannon rushing league or something so they can fight among themselves.
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On September 26 2010 02:53 HappyCakes wrote:Show nested quote +
I saw it, but I didn't know what he was doing - I thought he might try to cannon my choke - I didn't suspect his plan at all.
Killing a probe with drones is right next to impossible thanks to mineral walk - and pulling drones to go down there and harass him takes SO long thanks to the crazy walk distance.
Well know you do. Pulling 3drones to kill the pylon right when it comes up should work. Maybe not, those got loads of hp. ><
I think it was easier if only people who know about howto counter it reply. Killing the pylon is pointless, since you lose mining time and another pylon is easy to build.
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On September 26 2010 03:30 jpaugh78 wrote:
Man, the cheese just get's better and better as the weeks go by.
I'm not sure what I would have done in that situation, besides going into some sort of bm rage before I left. Blizzard should put all the cannon rushers into their own cannon rushing league or something so they can fight among themselves.
Agreed, it is silly how they turn a strategy game into a rage quit game.
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On September 26 2010 02:58 fdsdfg wrote:
Well, it's REALLY hard to kill a worker of someone who knows what they're doing. He can walk through my units to the mineral line, and then it's just like 3 spaces to where he needs to put down the cannon. I'd be gambling the entire match on the hope that I can stop him from going those 3 spaces.
Ok, yeah, I've seen this work a few times but when testing it's either a lot of micro or blind luck. Often the probe just slides straight past a group of drones.
What would have still worked in this specific case is blocking the ramp with three drones.
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Earlier pool? You were going for a 14 pool, right? It would be kinda dumb if the possibly of this cheese forces early pools though. =/
Other than that the only thing I can think of is to thumbs down Desert Oasis. >.> I think this is the strongest cannon rush I've ever seen.
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On September 26 2010 02:50 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 02:40 Alzadar wrote:
I think you might possibly have killed the first cannon if you pulled drones immediately, but I don't think that would have been the best option.
What I think you should have done is planted two spine crawlers the moment your spawning pool finished. The cannon in your base would have finished a few seconds before yours, but spines are stronger than cannons and you'd have two attacking one. I thought about this, but what's to stop him from putting down a second cannon? That'd force me to keep up with his cannons with spine crawlers So?
Also, with a bit of micro possibly using all your drones, maybe a drone wall off hold position at your ramp, you could have taken down the probe before it put down the cannon.
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Uhh....you let the probe run by and did nothing. That kind of thing should immediately raise red flags and you should scout around to see if he's doing any kind of proxy.
I think you could still have stopped it even after the late scout. Just pull 4 drones for each cannon until you can get lings out.
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On September 26 2010 04:23 TheFinalWord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 02:50 fdsdfg wrote:On September 26 2010 02:40 Alzadar wrote:
I think you might possibly have killed the first cannon if you pulled drones immediately, but I don't think that would have been the best option.
What I think you should have done is planted two spine crawlers the moment your spawning pool finished. The cannon in your base would have finished a few seconds before yours, but spines are stronger than cannons and you'd have two attacking one. I thought about this, but what's to stop him from putting down a second cannon? That'd force me to keep up with his cannons with spine crawlers So? Also, with a bit of micro possibly using all your drones, maybe a drone wall off hold position at your ramp, you could have taken down the probe before it put down the cannon.
On September 26 2010 04:16 jaj22 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 02:58 fdsdfg wrote:
Well, it's REALLY hard to kill a worker of someone who knows what they're doing. He can walk through my units to the mineral line, and then it's just like 3 spaces to where he needs to put down the cannon. I'd be gambling the entire match on the hope that I can stop him from going those 3 spaces.
Ok, yeah, I've seen this work a few times but when testing it's either a lot of micro or blind luck. Often the probe just slides straight past a group of drones. What would have still worked in this specific case is blocking the ramp with three drones.
All he has to do is take his probe and right click a mineral in my base. While mining for minerals, workers can path through units. Unit walls simply do not work against workers.
Regarding why it's easier to attack a pylon in your base than outside... the answer is pretty simple.
If a pylon is being built in my base, I can pull 3 probes right away and out-dps the HP.
However, if he starts a pylon outside my base, I'm not going to get there until it's halfway done - that means I need to pull 6 or so drones in order to power it down.
If he puts down another pylon, then I have to pull 6 more drones. It takes longer to get there and get back, and I have to pull more drones compared to trying to kill a pylon inside my base.
Does anyone want to practice this with me? I'm apprehensive but there's gotta be an answer
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I'm at work, so I can't watch the replay, bit usually if you can't stop the probe or attack the cannon right away with workers, you need to build at least a couple spine crawlers to stop the progression of cannons. Sometimes you might have to mix in spine defense with some lings if he's ahead on build time. The faster you react, the more likely you are to hold it off.
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spawningpool behind mineral line and if probe runs through kill with drones(worked against me :x)
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[B]On September 26 2010 04:44 fdsdfg wrote:
Does anyone want to practice this with me? I'm apprehensive but there's gotta be an answer
I'll practice with you. PM me your character info.
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Zergling rushes always counter cannon rushes but if you not going for that build, then build spine crawlers around your base so he can't push any further. You'll be ahead in tech.
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Aye, usually, spine crawlers are a great defense against cannons.
14.4 dps for cannons, 15.6 dps for crawlers.
Using a queen and drones. and your crawlers, and lings, you end up slightly ahead, and you can kill the probe with them to prevent more cannons, and then also kill the pylons, plus he is forced to make cannons in his own base too to stop your couple of lings, and you get a free expo shortly after.
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I feel like zergling need a boost to speed without the speed update, having probe outrunning zergling? ridiculous.
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On September 26 2010 04:52 amaGAWD wrote:
spawningpool behind mineral line and if probe runs through kill with drones(worked against me :x)
Then the low cannons would hit the pool....
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wow that's really cheesy as hell... LOL
gonna put that in my arsenal of cheese tricks. I didn't even need to practice it. It's so easy to do I learned it just from watching the rep
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On September 26 2010 04:44 fdsdfg wrote:
All he has to do is take his probe and right click a mineral in my base. While mining for minerals, workers can path through units. Unit walls simply do not work against workers.
Does anyone want to practice this with me? I'm apprehensive but there's gotta be an answer I'll practise seeing if you can get a probe past my drones, I'm sure I could do it with a bit of micro. Sure it can walk through but its not invincible, once that probe is dead the rush is well and truely over and the protoss is behind on tech and 500 minerals.
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That's a hell of a sneaky cheese.
Timing is beautiful, and it sneaks a cannon right in.
Nothing obvious, aside from killing the probe. Let me think about it, maybe do it to some zerg and see if they figure it out.
-Cross
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On September 26 2010 05:05 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 04:52 amaGAWD wrote:
spawningpool behind mineral line and if probe runs through kill with drones(worked against me :x) Then the low cannons would hit the pool....
they are _low_, how do they get vision?
more like spinecrawler rape the cannons
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On September 26 2010 05:42 amaGAWD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 05:05 fdsdfg wrote:On September 26 2010 04:52 amaGAWD wrote:
spawningpool behind mineral line and if probe runs through kill with drones(worked against me :x) Then the low cannons would hit the pool.... they are _low_, how do they get vision? more like spinecrawler rape the cannons
You place the pylon so that you can warp in a cannon up top, so when you move your probe up there to place it, the probe gives the lower 2 cannons vision to shoot the workers trying to kill the upper cannon.
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Well JPAugh and I tested this out a bit.. and reached a couple conclusions.
1) P CAN send two probes - one on the other side of the rocks and one inside the base. He can do a low pylon and low cannon that protect two cannons on high ground in power range of the pylon.
2) It's pretty foolhardy to try to send drones against the low pylons.
3) Killing the probe is a top priority, like any cannon rush.
4) If he does lay down cannons up north, match it with x+1 spine crawlers. He has a very definite max amount of cannons he can put down, so this isn't hard.
If you scout the probe coming into your base, you don't really need to see the low pylon - just keep watching the ramp and deal with that. Keep watching the ramp because he can put a cannon on both sides.
Not impossible to deal with, it's just new.
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On September 26 2010 06:00 fdsdfg wrote:
Not impossible to deal with, it's just new.
Just wanted to say, it's not new.
Had a guy do it to me this day, I floated away and raped him. 
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You saw probe go by (and not scout your base) at 2:03.
You see forge (Overlord) at 2:14.
You scout for the proxy pylon at 2:35?
4 drones per thing warping in kills it with minimal losses. You seek to kill, typically, the cannons that can't warp in until his proxy pylon finishes (2:43). His first cannon is partially shielded by the pylon so that may present some difficulty getting 4 probes to whack on it if he's good.
So keep a close eye on the minimap and scout where he lays down the proxy pylon. If you scout it late (>50% done) don't pull drones yet. If you scout it early, IMMEDIATELY pull 4 drones per cannon/new proxy pylon to kill that first proxy pylon. If you scout it late, 4 drones per new thing warping in. You will lose less minerals/second doing this compared to pulling all your drones, and he will be forced to keep canceling.
A PvP Replay showing it in action. The proxy forge is different, but the response is the same, 4 per cannon.
http://rapidshare.com/files/421270478/Steppes_of_War_-_PvP_cannon_rush.SC2Replay
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I noticed something else when we tested this on DO. The creep spreads enough on the bottom position that only 2 cannons can be warped in behind your mineral line. But if you get the top position, the back section has just enough room back there beyond the creep that 3 cannons can fit back there.
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Getting gaz so early, was your plan to get fast lair or speedling ?
You had so much gaz. Use it or probe out of gaz if you scout a fast forge.
Next time kill the probe if it is not protected by cannon or make sure it doesnt warp in anything next you mineral because the first cannons won't killed you. (Yeah all posters said that already )
Kill the cannon with more workers not pylons because cannon take long build time. You lost because of cannon at minerals.
Get a spine crawler and vision of his cannon with overlord if you had killed the cannon at minerals. Spine have range 7 and cannon 6.
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On September 26 2010 06:50 beridoxy wrote:
Getting gaz so early, was your plan to get fast lair or speedling ?
You had so much gaz. Use it or probe out of gaz if you scout a fast forge.
Yeah I usually go early gas on DO because Mutas are so good, it's useful to get them early.
In practice I did learn to pull them off gas if I see the forge first, so you are definitely right there.
Next time kill the probe if it is not protected by cannon or make sure it doesnt warp in anything next you mineral because the first cannons won't killed you. (Yeah all posters said that already ) Kill the cannon with more workers not pylons because cannon take long build time. You lost because of cannon at minerals. Get a spine crawler and vision of his cannon with overlord if you had killed the cannon at minerals. Spine have range 7 and cannon 6.
Well, no they both have 7 range.
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On September 26 2010 07:00 fdsdfg wrote:
Well, no they both have 7 range.
Yeah, right, nice fail of my part.
Always thought was 6, well will reread the basics.
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if you're on right now i could help you practice vs this.
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This replay is just a regular cannon rush though - the benefit countering it is that you can pull probes the instant you see something go down and start attacking it right away. The cannon on the lower ground is the whole difficulty in what we're discussing because you can't attack the high ground cannons without putting yourself in range of the other cannons
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Yeah, I would try to send workers to the bottom in order to kill the cannons (3 per cannon are able to kill it before it finishes if they start attacking right away). Don't attack the pylons (pylons 500 HP, 25 sec build time vs cannons 300 HP, 40 sec build time). You might need to send ~7-8 workers down to be safe. If he is somehow competent, chasing his probe won't accomplish anything. You just need to stall at this point, because in the meantime build a spine crawler at the top asap. As long as he has no vision on top, cannons won't hit you from the low ground. Soon your lings will be out and you'll be safe. A good spawning pool placement in order to block free movement of his probe might help as well.
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Ok, I ACTUALLY watched the replay, thats a clever Cannon rush.
THIS IS THE CORRECT RESPONSE
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/jcXmd.jpg)
spine crawler goes here(in red area)...this denies the cannons getting into the main, leave the cannons outside alone...they don't matter.
This does force a fast pool. I would gave and OV wait over this spot so you can throw one down the second you see the pylon/probe.
EDIT: the lowground cannon and pylon take 65 seconds to build minimum, the pool takes 65 seconds, so If you throw down your pool the second you see the pylon, you will be able to get the spine crawler up in the main in time to deny the highground cannon, probably with time to spare, even if you are late if you rush out a queen to tranfuse you should be ok. Also, if you are late you can throw down 2 crawlers to be safe, he only has room for one highground cannon initially.
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come to think of it, you could easily just have one drone on hold position where he builds the cannon inside your base. he cant build it anywhere else because of creep, and if he tries to leave his probe there for vision, you could just kill it.
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On September 26 2010 07:19 sob3k wrote:
Ok, I ACTUALLY watched the replay, thats a clever Cannon rush.
Can you get a queen out and creep tumor near your min line? The are in your base he puts the cannon is the only spot without creep, if you can get creep to that area the rush is denied instantly....This would seem to force a very early pool.
If you immediately placed a spine in your mineral line it would also shut this down, I think this is the best option.
If the queen could get out that early, then she could just attack the high-ground cannon as it's building with her range 3. Unfortunately the only way to do this is with a blind fast pool, which is unreliable.
On September 26 2010 07:19 FrostShadow wrote:
come to think of it, you could easily just have one drone on hold position where he builds the cannon inside your base. he cant build it anywhere else because of creep, and if he tries to leave his probe there for vision, you could just kill it.
Well, the low-ground cannon is there to prevent you from attacking the high-ground cannon, so the drone here would be in range of the low-ground cannons. As soon as his probe comes in and gives vision of your drone, he will die in two shots.
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Haha, it's funny how you are supply blocked at 17/18. I was waiting to see if you were gonna kill one of your own probes in order to build a zealot. But then he just left 
But that's how I fend of this cannon rush in PvP, and it should work. At least pre-patch it did. Just don't get too excited and forget building pylons etc.
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Well, the low-ground cannon is there to prevent you from attacking the high-ground cannon, so the drone here would be in range of the low-ground cannons. As soon as his probe comes in and gives vision of your drone, he will die in two shots.
dude, a ton of people have given you perfectly applicable advice on how to stop this and you just reply and pretend that none of them will not work. this is not some unbeatable strat.
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On September 26 2010 07:27 FrostShadow wrote:Show nested quote +
Well, the low-ground cannon is there to prevent you from attacking the high-ground cannon, so the drone here would be in range of the low-ground cannons. As soon as his probe comes in and gives vision of your drone, he will die in two shots.
dude, a ton of people have given you perfectly applicable advice on how to stop this and you just reply and pretend that none of them will not work. this is not some unbeatable strat.
what are you talking about? Blocking the highground cannon with drones will not work. there are 2 cannons lowground specifically for this....
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Isn't this really simple? Just place 1(if you can in time) or 2(if can't) spine crawlers in range of the in-base cannon and outside the range of out-of-base cannons. Seems like others have said this already, but isn't that pretty obvious
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On September 26 2010 07:27 FrostShadow wrote:Show nested quote +
Well, the low-ground cannon is there to prevent you from attacking the high-ground cannon, so the drone here would be in range of the low-ground cannons. As soon as his probe comes in and gives vision of your drone, he will die in two shots.
dude, a ton of people have given you perfectly applicable advice on how to stop this and you just reply and pretend that none of them will not work. this is not some unbeatable strat.
See my post on page 2. I figured out how to beat it and described it well. I still can point out why particular tactics don't work. Putting a drone on hold position here doesn't work because he'll just die instantly.
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EPT
