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Hello TL,
I am in no position to play sc2 for a while so I have some questions for you zerg players out there .
Is it viable again to go hatch first against protoss? On the big four player maps with cross position you could save your hatchery. But the real question is, how does it work out on other maps? I am really curious about lost temple close positions and steppes of war.
How big is the reaper nerf? We can do the math the whole day, but how does it feel? Are roaches in time? Or if you go hatchery first, so your gas is slightly delayed, does that still mean auto loss? Is the extra build time enough to get zergling speed and your queens and/or roaches?
You would make me one happy bear if some good zerg players could answer these questions.
Sorry for my english (writing this from my phone) and I hope the mods will keep this thread open 
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I'm not a 'good' zerg player, infact i'm a low platinum random player... but some answers from my personal experience:
Ofcourse it is viable to go hatch first vs protoss. Infact, i thouht was actually easier to fend of 2gate pressure with something like 14-hatch 14 pool prepatch than it was to just go 14 pool because you get two queens instead of one.
Although, the thing is that you get both out later, so on closer maps (say, Steppes of War) maps it could be a problem. Keep in mind that five seconds ingame works out to about 3.3 seconds IRL, and with Chronoboost that time can be cut in half once more so i don't really think it makes an overly large difference as your same pressure comes at roughly the same time maybe delayed about five seconds in total. To be honest, it feels about the same to me.
As for the reapers, I have yet to play a ZvT post patch, so i have no idea. That being said, when i played around with making my own reapers vs the AI, the critical mass delays the critical/dangerous mass by about 10~15 seconds so the window to get roaches is definitely a fair bit bigger. That said, i don't think hatch first is a smart idea in ZvT anyway, Reapers are too good vs buildings, and your units are too delayed imo. With a bunker rush or 2gate pressure you can let your Hatchery a take some hits whereas with reapers they are likely going to kill hatch.
/shrug
That is my insight, for the very little it is worth.
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This should really be in strategy, it'll prolly get moved. I don't see how it's going to make any builds less viable for Zerg.
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I just realized i was writing my feelings regarding your questions, Pre patch. And you wanted post patch answers  so im just going to try it out since i havent tried new patch yet and maybe ill post then =)
Regarding reapers though Pre patch i had no problem going hatchery first and still defending reaper rush. Queens + spinecrawlers until roach. So i dont think it will be a problem now either
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I'm fast expanding every game, testing the new patch. still doing 14 pool on maps where protoss usually do proxy gate/cannon, like Desert Oasis, xel naga caverns.
tonight I had 2 games on DO against protoss and both of them they tried to cheese me, but I obviously spotted it.
it's retarded, they always try that on DO...
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ilbh if you read the questions he asked about hatch first not 14 pool
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and I said I'm going FE every game to test the new patch, but not on maps they usually do proxy gate.
btw, how did you handle a reaper RUSH pre patch going hatch first?
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Wow, patch is finally out, maybe ill find some will to try out sc2 again :D
On September 22 2010 16:33 iCanada wrote:
Infact, i thouht was actually easier to fend of 2gate pressure with something like 14-hatch 14 pool prepatch than it was to just go 14 pool because you get two queens instead of one.
Those 2 zealots used to show up to your door much earlier than your 2nd hatch or 2nd queen or whatever was out. That was the real problem of 2 gate, players that "specialized" in it made it happen so fast, only way to stop it was with spines (on smaller maps).
On September 22 2010 16:43 Ejden wrote:Regarding reapers though Pre patch i had no problem going hatchery first and still defending reaper rush. Queens + spinecrawlers until roach. So i dont think it will be a problem now either
Same as above really. Players which knew how to use reapers made expoing a suicide.
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For me:
vs. Terran: 14 hatch every game to see how it goes. Dies horribly to 9 rax or proxy obviously, which a lot of T's are doing tonight against me.
vs. Toss: need to scout gateways/core/gas (I haven't played a lot of ZvP today)
vs. Zerg: Early scout...sneak an early hatch vs late pool (as usual)
I kind of suck though (900 dia)
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On September 22 2010 17:04 Neuuubeh wrote:
Same as above really. Players which knew how to use reapers made expoing a suicide.
This will still get easier because of the 5sec bunker delay, as that was the main danger of hatch before pool is finished, wether its a 14 hatch, 16 hatch after pool or whatnot.
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On September 22 2010 17:04 Neuuubeh wrote:Wow, patch is finally out, maybe ill find some will to try out sc2 again :D Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 16:33 iCanada wrote:
Infact, i thouht was actually easier to fend of 2gate pressure with something like 14-hatch 14 pool prepatch than it was to just go 14 pool because you get two queens instead of one.
Those 2 zealots used to show up to your door much earlier than your 2nd hatch or 2nd queen or whatever was out. That was the real problem of 2 gate, players that "specialized" in it made it happen so fast, only way to stop it was with spines (on smaller maps). Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 16:43 Ejden wrote:Regarding reapers though Pre patch i had no problem going hatchery first and still defending reaper rush. Queens + spinecrawlers until roach. So i dont think it will be a problem now either Same as above really. Players which knew how to use reapers made expoing a suicide.
Maybe all the 2gate'rs i've ever played are terrible, but i find that they would have two zealots and then they would try to deny your expo because that is the obvious thing to do; you just let them hit the hatch(Ie, the thing with the most friggen health you have) and then as your two queens pop (remember 14 hatch, 14 pool) you bring in your 15-20 lings and just overwhelm their 5~ zealots as well as killing their probe/pylon rather than sending in two zerglings at a time to get owned.
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On September 22 2010 17:04 Neuuubeh wrote:
Those 2 zealots used to show up to your door much earlier than your 2nd hatch or 2nd queen or whatever was out. That was the real problem of 2 gate, players that "specialized" in it made it happen so fast, only way to stop it was with spines (on smaller maps).
Or you can rush upgraded zerglings like I posted a few days ago. There's a replay in there showing a 2 gate defense. I put up 2 spine crawlers, but they weren't even finished by the time I held him off; it was the upgraded zerglings that were more than enough to do so. Was 4 player map with close positions (can't remember map name though)
Anyway...reapers building slower don't have too much of an effect that I've seen, but I rarely see reaper rushes. When I scout a tech lab early just throw down a spine on each end of your mineral line and that's enough to buy you time to attack. I play zerg very aggressively though so maybe that's why I don't have to deal with quick reapers too often (1.1k diamond), but I am a definite fan of the new zealot/reaper build times 
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Well I used to have no problems with 2 gates on ladder either. however after a few custom games with a protoss friend of mine who "wanted to perfect his timings vs zerg", I couldnt get a single game, those zealots were there so relentlessly fast... Sure, one manages to push them away and expand and get a nice economy, only to find the protoss completely walled off at the natural (Lost temple) and warping units constantly on a 60 workers economy.
Those protoss changes will really help alleviate this, maybe I'll start winning again lol :D. but meh, somehow got no drive to even try it 
PS. Mind you, Im talking of a game-state like 3 weeks ago, havent been playing much since
On September 22 2010 17:13 asmo.0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 17:04 Neuuubeh wrote:
Same as above really. Players which knew how to use reapers made expoing a suicide. This will still get easier because of the 5sec bunker delay, as that was the main danger of hatch before pool is finished, wether its a 14 hatch, 16 hatch after pool or whatnot.
I meant before the patch. Havent played post-patch yet, but I really like the changes, really would even things out. People say 5 secs added to the build time is hardly a change, but imo, those 5 secs were the gamebreaker
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People say 5 secs added to the build time is hardly a change, but imo, those 5 secs were the gamebreaker
Its not 5 sec. Its 3 sec on faster so with chronoboost it's like 1.5 sec.....realy huuuuge change.
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hatch first is still very vulnerable to stuff like 1 pylon 1/2 cans behind the mineral line. i personally very much doubt it will become playable without taking a big risk.
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mmmmmmh 3 hatch before pool <3
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6 pool seems to autowin vs toss players.
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Note that the build time nerf stockpiles over time, so first zealot is out 5 ingame seconds later, scnd 10 ingame seconds later etc. so this will probably remove some pressure from Zerg FE builds (which is a good thing, i loose about 80% of all FE games, so i stopped doing it ..
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With this patch two builds that I am eager to try are:
14 pool, 14 hatch, 16 hatch (at your enterance to main base)
and 9 pool with 6 lings to provide early aggression while droning and expanding at home.
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EPT
