EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 45
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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birdkicker
United States752 Posts
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VAGZ
574 Posts
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bqzg
64 Posts
also, let's say your ramp is blocked with 2 bunkers while your expo is building (you went 14 gas 14 pool 21 expand). what's the best response to this? do you cancel the hatch? do you bust out with blings or roaches? | ||
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Neivler
Norway911 Posts
On January 23 2011 14:25 colanderman wrote: I know there's gotta be a simple answer to this. I used to be random, and when faced with a turtling opponent, I just expanded all over, denied my opponent's expansions, and eventually starved him out. I feel like there's no way to do this as Zerg, despite Zerg's focus on expanding. I follow the same strat, but come the endgame, if I'm unable to positively overwhelm my opponent's army, then I'm left with undefendable bases and little-to-no seige units, since Brood Lords take *so long* to get out. How to better Zergs than I deal with turtling opponents? Tech hard, dont expand to much. At max 4 bases vs 2 bases when they turtle hard. Get broods and be ready with a lot of larva to refill your army after the first attack. Just dont go to eco heavy, you need a big army. | ||
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CoMMoDuS
Germany507 Posts
iam really looking for some feedback from zergs and terrans on a game i played today on metapolis. i actually had cross positions with the terran and went for a 15hatch. the terran applied only a bit of pressure while fast expoing himself, so i felt pretty safe. nevertheless he soon pushed out again with more marines, the first of many pushes to come. he only got mass marines with some marauders to tank my banelings and permanently applied pressure while also getting way ahead in expos and workers because i felt i need to produce units constantly. he did get all the infantery upgrade but didnt even go for medivacs. i realize i made some big mistakes like getting a spire before realizing it would be useless, getting infestors too late and not spreading my creep but i do not think it would have won me the game. what surprises me, is that i dont even find the key for winning this szenario even after watching the replay several times. i would greatly appreciate if some one would actually take the time and check out my replay to tell me how to counter this kind of strategy or show me further mistakes i made. if you in fact have experienced such a game or know games in which this strategy was beaten please post the replay. thanks alot http://replayfu.com/r/81tWcj | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
Few dif kind of hellions i've seen that maybe I should treat differently? 1. Gas before rax hellions, 1 or no marines, fast factory+reactor. 2. gas after rax hellions, 2-4 marines, fast-ish factory+reactor 3. wallin at front into preigniter hellions, 2 factory 1 techlab 1 reactor So far I treat them all the same way, with either 6 fast roaches to go attack and 2 later roaches to defend or if positions are too far, 3-4 defensive roaches. I have no idea if zergling+spine crawler is the better choice? Maybe its map dependent if you can wall-off part of your natural? Maybe its based on travel distance? Maybe its lings so you can get lair fast and go muta? Im a 1500 masters zerg who can deal with most things except hellions  . Advice?PS: I prefer doing a roach-bling-speedling style on 2 base until 3rd base, then 3 base muta. Also I open up 14 hatch 15 pool. | ||
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MaxField
United States2386 Posts
On June 30 2011 15:31 TheGreenMachine wrote: Saracen I hope you still read this thread! I'm having trouble holding off hellions in the best way possible. Few dif kind of hellions i've seen that maybe I should treat differently? 1. Gas before rax hellions, 1 or no marines, fast factory+reactor. 2. gas after rax hellions, 2-4 marines, fast-ish factory+reactor 3. wallin at front into preigniter hellions, 2 factory 1 techlab 1 reactor So far I treat them all the same way, with either 6 fast roaches to go attack and 2 later roaches to defend or if positions are too far, 3-4 defensive roaches. I have no idea if zergling+spine crawler is the better choice? Maybe its map dependent if you can wall-off part of your natural? Maybe its based on travel distance? Maybe its lings so you can get lair fast and go muta? Im a 1500 masters zerg who can deal with most things except hellions . Advice?PS: I prefer doing a roach-bling-speedling style on 2 base until 3rd base, then 3 base muta. Also I open up 14 hatch 15 pool. I know that for me, it really depends on the map (natural) if i can hold with mostly spines and then some lings and queen micro. Maps like Shakuras this is easy, but i have issues on Xel Naga Caverns. I do not know about the different hellion openings though. | ||
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ReptarReptar
Australia9 Posts
If I 14g14p, whats the logic of 21h rather than 19h (assuming no pylon block etc)? Thanks :D | ||
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Kreos.Z
United States37 Posts
On June 30 2011 15:31 TheGreenMachine wrote: Saracen I hope you still read this thread! I'm having trouble holding off hellions in the best way possible. + Show Spoiler + Few dif kind of hellions i've seen that maybe I should treat differently? 1. Gas before rax hellions, 1 or no marines, fast factory+reactor. 2. gas after rax hellions, 2-4 marines, fast-ish factory+reactor 3. wallin at front into preigniter hellions, 2 factory 1 techlab 1 reactor So far I treat them all the same way, with either 6 fast roaches to go attack and 2 later roaches to defend or if positions are too far, 3-4 defensive roaches. I have no idea if zergling+spine crawler is the better choice? Maybe its map dependent if you can wall-off part of your natural? Maybe its based on travel distance? Maybe its lings so you can get lair fast and go muta? Im a 1500 masters zerg who can deal with most things except hellions . Advice?PS: I prefer doing a roach-bling-speedling style on 2 base until 3rd base, then 3 base muta. Also I open up 14 hatch 15 pool. Given that you prefer doing the roach/bling/speedling style, your best bet is to just get a few defensive roaches and place them smartly (i.e with 5 roaches you could have 2 roaches and a queen near your ramp to block it at any time, and 3 roaches on the other side of your hatchery to deny any hellions from sweeping around behind the mineral line). I'm actually fairly surprised that hellions of all units are giving you trouble while playing that style. Either way, on any 1 fact reactored hellion opening, you should just need to make 3-5 roaches depending on the map to completely nullify any hellions. Just remember to add a few more when you're grabbing your third (which should be earlier than a speedling/crawler build, for reference). Use your roaches to push back the hellions to allow creep tumors to finish, and just keep spreading that creep. In the roach//bling/ling style, having creep spread well is so essential. From any 1 fact, reactored hellion opening, you should be expecting him to transition back to marine tank, so prepare for a push around 9-10 mins. If you notice the 2 fact 1 reactor 1 tech lab opener, then you're going to need a bit more roaches for a safety net. If you let 2 hellions slip by once, thats a lot of potential drone kills, so you need a bit more to make sure he wont try to suicide by 8 hellions through 5 roaches. From that point, you need to get some kind of intel on him, as he can either go back into marine tank, or into heavy mech (the later usually being more common from this opening). Essentially what you're looking for is either a.) 3 barracks or b.) an armory. If you notice the armory, or no barracks, drop the 3 base muta idea and go into 3 base infestor/roach instead. Otherwise, continue on! tl;dr: if he's going 1 fact reactored hellions, survive with as few roaches as a map warrants (shattered temple, scrap station, shakuras need only 3-4 for example), otherwise get enough to make any slip bys impossible if he's going 2 fact blue flame hellions. | ||
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djengizz
Netherlands42 Posts
On June 30 2011 16:27 ReptarReptar wrote: Quick question; If I 14g14p, whats the logic of 21h rather than 19h (assuming no pylon block etc)? Thanks :D I was wondering the same and the two reasons i could come up with: -No idle larvae (Hatch on 19 has idle Larvae) -Perfect one base mineral saturation (16 Drones + Queen + 4 Zerglings + scouting Drone) Reason 1 being the more important reason i guess, not sure about both though. | ||
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Kreos.Z
United States37 Posts
On June 30 2011 16:27 ReptarReptar wrote: Quick question; If I 14g14p, whats the logic of 21h rather than 19h (assuming no pylon block etc)? Thanks :D There isnt logic saying to get it at 21 over 19. The 20 and 21st supply typically are lings to kill the pylon to drop your hatch (2 lings aren't enough to dps down a pylon faster than it builds). If he isn't pylon blocking you, it's better to drop the hatch, and only make 2 lings rather than 4 to squeeze out an extra drone. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On June 30 2011 18:08 Kreos.Z wrote: Given that you prefer doing the roach/bling/speedling style, your best bet is to just get a few defensive roaches and place them smartly (i.e with 5 roaches you could have 2 roaches and a queen near your ramp to block it at any time, and 3 roaches on the other side of your hatchery to deny any hellions from sweeping around behind the mineral line). I'm actually fairly surprised that hellions of all units are giving you trouble while playing that style. Either way, on any 1 fact reactored hellion opening, you should just need to make 3-5 roaches depending on the map to completely nullify any hellions. Just remember to add a few more when you're grabbing your third (which should be earlier than a speedling/crawler build, for reference). Use your roaches to push back the hellions to allow creep tumors to finish, and just keep spreading that creep. In the roach//bling/ling style, having creep spread well is so essential. From any 1 fact, reactored hellion opening, you should be expecting him to transition back to marine tank, so prepare for a push around 9-10 mins. If you notice the 2 fact 1 reactor 1 tech lab opener, then you're going to need a bit more roaches for a safety net. If you let 2 hellions slip by once, thats a lot of potential drone kills, so you need a bit more to make sure he wont try to suicide by 8 hellions through 5 roaches. From that point, you need to get some kind of intel on him, as he can either go back into marine tank, or into heavy mech (the later usually being more common from this opening). Essentially what you're looking for is either a.) 3 barracks or b.) an armory. If you notice the armory, or no barracks, drop the 3 base muta idea and go into 3 base infestor/roach instead. Otherwise, continue on! tl;dr: if he's going 1 fact reactored hellions, survive with as few roaches as a map warrants (shattered temple, scrap station, shakuras need only 3-4 for example), otherwise get enough to make any slip bys impossible if he's going 2 fact blue flame hellions. Ty very informative, I had never thought about scouting his base before putting down spire and deciding if hes going mech or marine-tank. In my experience they go marine-tank 95% of the time but theres variations like quick medivacs, 2x fac, extra rax, faster thor ect that could be worth scouting. And hellions don't give me the most trouble, its just I see zergs treating the exact same hellion opening very differently and I don't know why. To be honest, my biggest problem as zerg is over droning but thats for another day xD, getting into the practice of counting my drones constantly. | ||
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Mithrandir
United States99 Posts
On June 30 2011 15:31 TheGreenMachine wrote: 1. Gas before rax hellions, 1 or no marines, fast factory+reactor. 2. gas after rax hellions, 2-4 marines, fast-ish factory+reactor 3. wallin at front into preigniter hellions, 2 factory 1 techlab 1 reactor PS: I prefer doing a roach-bling-speedling style on 2 base until 3rd base, then 3 base muta. Also I open up 14 hatch 15 pool. Assuming hatch first I'd recommend 1. No roaches, your roach warren will never be up in time. Slow lings on top of your ramp and 2 spines at nat (1 in range of ramp, 1 to cover the rest of your nat), or 1 spine on easily defendable maps (shakuras). If they only build 2 hellions you're at a disadvantage cause you overcommitted, such is life :/ . If they build 4-6 and you only have 1 spine and speedlings it can be iffy. I like to break my lings into 2 control groups so they all don't chase at once. 2. I'd do the same as 1, but possibly only use 1 spine to stop them from going up ramp. Speed should be done in time for this. Speedlings on creep do fine if you get a surround. 3. If you enjoy a roach style, you should have roaches out in time for this. Otherwise, if you scout it, 2 spines and speedlings can handle it with good control unless they build up an absurd blue flame count (which is all-in for them). Sortof micro intensive. And it may be worth noting for mech: I scout mech with my first 5-10 mutas usually. At this point I stop muta production throw down a roach warren and get double upgrades, ranged, carapace, then melee in that order. Against mech you should deny the third and go up to 3 or 4 bases being super greedy because mech is weak to roaches at first. Then, 2 spines at every base should handle blue flame harass. I like to get a quick hive and go infestor ling roach brood lord. Your mutas can go around and be annoying, picking off hellions forcing turrets, etc. Edit: 1400 masters myself but the above hellion response is what I've seen Idra do. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On September 21 2010 10:51 Saracen wrote: Zergs aren't quitters or whiners. They meet adversity head-on, and overcome it with a nonchalant shrug and brushing of dirt off their shoulders. omg this part of the post is made of pure gold | ||
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
In ZvP, how do you deal with mass air (opponent goes double starport and gets mass pheonix transition into mass voidray while still expanding everywhere due to cannons). In ZvT how do you deal with Blue flame hellions without getting roaches? In ZvZ how do you survive past the 7 minute mark? | ||
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QuesterX
Australia32 Posts
Mass air response depends on what kind of mass air i find. At the moment i am heavily favouring the icefisher (spanishiwa) build which gets extraneous Queens for defence and creep spread. I have found that these extra queens deal handily with even 4 voids (this would also mean that while you are hitting the voids you are either transfusing if you have hte energy OR building MORE queens). The investment from the Toss is generally so great that these queens + a few spines at the front allow for a pretty good defence all round. If they go more phoenixes you could be in a bit of trouble, but by the point they come out with this there should have been some inkling that it was coming and you can safely go hydras --> win. If they go pure phoenix the queen opening is still very powerful AND you can double expand safe in the knowledge that every phoenix is a gateway and a sentry they don't have. Thanks to the fact that phoenixes can't kill your buildings (lol duh quester) you can sacrifice the overlords that they will inevitibly kill for more production and economy. If someone has a better way of dealing with this i would love to hear it. This isn't impressive in this forum but my own record is, since adopting this style, 100% wins on Ladder against mass air. This build is also strong agaisnt 4 gate/6 gate because its high econ and spinecrawlers allow for a massive roach pump at about the 7 minute mark. =) | ||
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
On July 01 2011 14:50 QuesterX wrote: Komholi0, while i myself will absolutely be the first to admit that i am not the best player in the world my ZvP is definitely my strong suit. Mass air response depends on what kind of mass air i find. At the moment i am heavily favouring the icefisher (spanishiwa) build which gets extraneous Queens for defence and creep spread. I have found that these extra queens deal handily with even 4 voids (this would also mean that while you are hitting the voids you are either transfusing if you have hte energy OR building MORE queens). The investment from the Toss is generally so great that these queens + a few spines at the front allow for a pretty good defence all round. If they go more phoenixes you could be in a bit of trouble, but by the point they come out with this there should have been some inkling that it was coming and you can safely go hydras --> win. If they go pure phoenix the queen opening is still very powerful AND you can double expand safe in the knowledge that every phoenix is a gateway and a sentry they don't have. Thanks to the fact that phoenixes can't kill your buildings (lol duh quester) you can sacrifice the overlords that they will inevitibly kill for more production and economy. If someone has a better way of dealing with this i would love to hear it. This isn't impressive in this forum but my own record is, since adopting this style, 100% wins on Ladder against mass air. This build is also strong agaisnt 4 gate/6 gate because its high econ and spinecrawlers allow for a massive roach pump at about the 7 minute mark. =) I am talking like, 2 starport 10+ pheonix (he doesn't do standard harass until he has enough to pick up hydralisk pretty much). Or mass voidrays... I found that infestors are really good but you can't do much against cannons considering there are like 50 cannons (think of it like a bronze doing a mass voidray style of play but being executed by a master player). | ||
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QuesterX
Australia32 Posts
4 queens do a ton of damage. I am only in plat (1st in my div and i have won the last 7 games [this is on NA] so hopefully diamond soon *crosses fingers*) but the push is the same if a little late. My brother is a diamond toss and we practice a lot and i find this works really, really well. As i said tho i obviously don't have any experience in masters but thought i would help if i could. | ||
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TipsyMan
United States16 Posts
Im beginning to wonder if I should make 3 spines at each base and a burrowed Infestor but I dont think thats efficient. | ||
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MaxField
United States2386 Posts
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