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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On July 01 2011 15:19 TipsyMan wrote:
Best way to deal with medivac drops that occur on 3 bases at the same time in ZvT?
Im beginning to wonder if I should make 3 spines at each base and a burrowed Infestor but I dont think thats efficient.
It really depends on what units you are building, and how they are connected (creep, or other side of the map). If you are going muta, then try to keep them flying around to deny drops. Keep your overlords around if possible to spot the drops ahead of time to have sufficient time to deal with them. I do not think there is anything wrong with dropping a few spines at your 3rd and 4th base, but make sure they are connected with creep so your army can reach it in time. It is all about seeing the drop before they happen, possibly stopping it if you are going air, or having some defenses up to buy you some time to reach there.
It is up to you if you want to burrow an infestor at your base, i would say no. It is hard, but keeping your army active, and not just in one clump in the middle of the map is a good way to handle drops as well. Try to not send everything you have to one drop if you suspect another might be going down somewhere else.
Yea for post 1700!
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delete please...double post
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On July 01 2011 15:19 TipsyMan wrote:
Best way to deal with medivac drops that occur on 3 bases at the same time in ZvT?
Im beginning to wonder if I should make 3 spines at each base and a burrowed Infestor but I dont think thats efficient.
I actually have problem with this before as well, what's worse is that my fd abuses the terrain cliffs to make the drops even more annoying.
My solution is just to keep some lings in each base and 2 spines per base.
I would start dropping spines whenever I have 3 or more bases.
Also if he is doing a huge drop (like he has taken a tank with him), if I am going roach, ling and infestors, I would actually just mass up and do one huge attack
It takes so much multi tasking to deal/do these drops, try dropping him back to make him less aggressive
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On July 01 2011 04:23 Mithrandir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 15:31 TheGreenMachine wrote:
1. Gas before rax hellions, 1 or no marines, fast factory+reactor.
2. gas after rax hellions, 2-4 marines, fast-ish factory+reactor
3. wallin at front into preigniter hellions, 2 factory 1 techlab 1 reactor
PS: I prefer doing a roach-bling-speedling style on 2 base until 3rd base, then 3 base muta. Also I open up 14 hatch 15 pool. Assuming hatch first I'd recommend 1. No roaches, your roach warren will never be up in time. Slow lings on top of your ramp and 2 spines at nat (1 in range of ramp, 1 to cover the rest of your nat), or 1 spine on easily defendable maps (shakuras). If they only build 2 hellions you're at a disadvantage cause you overcommitted, such is life :/ . If they build 4-6 and you only have 1 spine and speedlings it can be iffy. I like to break my lings into 2 control groups so they all don't chase at once.
You can have roaches right about when the hellions hit your base with 15 hatch, and given the amount of resources he's pouring into hellions, you're going to do a ton of damage (if not outright win) with your roach pressure while you safely saturate 2 base and take a third (assuming he expands)
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Hopefully Simple:
How many drones should I have before going Lair tech? I find this to be a problem because sometimes ill start a lair but quickly find out I don't have the gas/mineral to support it indefinitely.
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Hopefully Simple:
How many drones should I have before going Lair tech? I find this to be a problem because sometimes ill start a lair but quickly find out I don't have the gas/mineral to support it indefinitely
It's not simple at all actually, and this really depends on alot of things. Vs zerg there are no fixed times to get your lair. You basically want to get it when your oppponent gets it at least, unless you are going a specific build. The amount of drones required is also very debatable in zvz, since there are alot of quick burrow and speed roach pushed that you can do, that you don't need as much economy for. In zvt and zvp which have more set in stone build orders. You just need a good amount of drones, about 40 - 50. Before getting your lair. If he is going some gimmicky though, that you will problaby want lair for, then its okay to go earlier lair to just hold off his strat, like say dt's. You can hold it off with spores, but an overseer never hurts. It's very complicated this, some players like losira get their lair as late as 10 minutes, when he is on 3 bases with 70 drones atleast. I'd say as a conclusion, don't get your lair before you have about 50 drones unless you are going for a particular cheese or rush that requires quickler lair.
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On July 02 2011 01:30 Virum wrote:
Hopefully Simple:
How many drones should I have before going Lair tech? I find this to be a problem because sometimes ill start a lair but quickly find out I don't have the gas/mineral to support it indefinitely.
it's very situational, but around 2 base saturation is a good benchmark to start from.
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I think Dreamhack's recent Moon Vs. Bomber Semi-final (game2) clearly indicates the point that I am about to make. I can't help but feel that it is damn near impossible to "break" a strong terran player when they are in hard turtle mode. This particular game, Moon got a ridiculous advantage early, and even went up TEN bases to the Terran's FOUR. He cycled through zergling, baneling, ultralisk, infestor, corrupter, broodlord, mutalisk, overseers... He countered, Literally took every expansion on Tal'Darim that the Terran didn't already have, and still had to wait for a 30 minute concede from the Terran after having 0 income because it was basically impossible to break the Terran's army.
Furthermore, he even almost lost the game: he was in a situation where about 30 marines cut off his mutas and infestors, killed off all the infestors, were wrecking the mutas until burrowed banelings saved the day. Burrowed Banelings are not necessarily the most consistant strategy available.
I definitely play a Macro style, consisting mainly of muta/ling/bling >> broodlords (and maybe ultras). But I still find that no matter how hard I take an early advantage, counterattack, contain the Terran, deny expansions, expand freely myself, (etc.etc.) I just can't seem to break the army, and I eventually get overrun when the Terran decides he's going to move out. Any help would be appreciated!
It's basically at the point where .... I get ahead early in tech, economy, food-count (or all 3), and try one of two things: throw units at his to trade armies and resupply (doesn't really work) or wait for him to attack and try to mount the best defense I can (still doesn't usually work because of Terrans superior late-game army).
In my most recent dissapointing ZvT, I played a 44 minute quarterfinal match for a local tournament on MLG meta... I literally mined out every single base on my half (save about 3 mineral nodes on my 6th expo), at some point in the game I went muta, ling, bling, roach, hydra, corrupter, infestor, broodlord, ultra..... and I eventually lost to a (barely) 4 base Terran. I had 3/2/3 (melee, ranged, carapace), and +1a for Flyers. I'm not saying I think the matchup is imba, or the race is OP -- because I absolutely hate that kind of talk .... I'm just saying that I can't help but feel it might be slightly ... idk ..... "easier" to play as Terran?
again.... ANY possible solutions would be greatly appreciated. At this point I'm considering just doing a super early baneling bust and just taking a 35-40% win ratio off that against Terrans cuz it beats whatever else I'm doing.
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When do you get 2nd/3rd/4th gases? I take it spanishiwa style, at 40 then drone up to 44.
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This might have been posted already, but I can't read the entire thread to be sure so I'll ask anyway.
I am a 1400 master zerg player, and I have a real hard to dealing with blue flame helion thor, the terran sits on 2 or 3 bases depending on the map and just pumps helions and thors, and when he reaches a critical mass he just moves out and it's hard to stop it.
I know going broodlords is the answer, but some terrans scan for the hive non stop and if they see it they move out. I can't just drone because of the constant threat of being attack by 5+ thors and a bunch of helions.
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On July 02 2011 04:55 Ksyper wrote:
This might have been posted already, but I can't read the entire thread to be sure so I'll ask anyway.
I am a 1400 master zerg player, and I have a real hard to dealing with blue flame helion thor, the terran sits on 2 or 3 bases depending on the map and just pumps helions and thors, and when he reaches a critical mass he just moves out and it's hard to stop it.
I know going broodlords is the answer, but some terrans scan for the hive non stop and if they see it they move out. I can't just drone because of the constant threat of being attack by 5+ thors and a bunch of helions.
I was wondering the same thing. Recently i've lost once and won once using muta ling bane against thor blue flame hellion, however the time u won i had a huge economic lead and the thor hellion ball creamed my first army. I think there are two possible options:
1) I think that the most effecient way would prolly to go roach infestor, get NP on ur infestors and neural parasite as many thors as possible. Roaches can tank the hellion dmg so the hellions become obselete. Kind of like when you vs a toss using infestors, theres a huge imbalance in the army where the collosi deal most of the damage and stalkers are just the meatshields (or in this case thors deal most of the damage and the hellions kind of serve like meat shields) so when you neural parasite their thors you should pretty much be able to roll over their army because of the dps swing you gain from mind controling his thors. getting BL's for support would prolly be a good idea as well, but like you said they push out before that.
2) Or you could try to roll over the terran during his expo using a two base all in, since he most likely will go a blue flame opening into expo, you can prolly roll over his expo with a roach ling bane composition.
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I've been having a lot of trouble lately against terrans that open helion. What exactly is the proper response to helion? I've always been very unsure of what to do because the terran can do many things at this point. I'm never sure if the terran is doing:
1. Teching to banshees
2. Blue-flame
3. Stopping production after a few helions
4. going mass helions then switching to mass marauder production.
If it's 1, I absolutely need queens or spore crawlers, because mutas wont be up in time.
if it's 2, I absolutely need roaches as the main unit in my army. Zerglings die too fast to blue flame helions.
If it's 3, I don't have to get roaches because speedlings can handle them juts fine.
If it's 4, I'm not sure what to do.
How do I properly respond to helions, given there are so many things the terran can do after?
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On July 02 2011 05:31 Xanbatou wrote:
I've been having a lot of trouble lately against terrans that open helion. What exactly is the proper response to helion? I've always been very unsure of what to do because the terran can do many things at this point. I'm never sure if the terran is doing:
1. Teching to banshees
2. Blue-flame
3. Stopping production after a few helions
4. going mass helions then switching to mass marauder production.
If it's 1, I absolutely need queens or spore crawlers, because mutas wont be up in time.
if it's 2, I absolutely need roaches as the main unit in my army. Zerglings die too fast to blue flame helions.
If it's 3, I don't have to get roaches because speedlings can handle them juts fine.
If it's 4, I'm not sure what to do.
How do I properly respond to helions, given there are so many things the terran can do after?
I struggle against 4 as well, hellions into mass marauder seems deadlier to me than a seige tank timing push. The only thing I can think of is getting mutas up in time to deal with it by getting an earlier lair, or using a spine ling defence.
Edit: So I was just laddering and I ended up vsing a random opponent on Shakuras Plateau. I sent a scout at 9, just to be sure of my build and scout out any cheese. And sure enough, I see him laying down two gateways at his front door (yea he was protoss). So I had gone 14 14, and as soon as my pool finished i layed down my RW, skipping zergling speed in the process just to be safe, and I ended up keeping drones on gas. I made 3 roaches, which arrived before his push, and then 4 more followed. I held off his 4 zealots using my roaches and my queen, and then layed down my expo (he retreated after seeing my roaches). So at this point I sent my overlord into his base to scout his transition, and saw him lay down a forge (so I knew he was expanding). So I opted to go for a 2 base all in. So I carried out the two base all in with my intial roaches and some speedling support, he had two cannons near his choke at his natural, and a few units, yet he held it off. I stubbornly kept trying this again, but eventually he got an immortal out and countered, thereby killing me off. So my question is should I have countered earlier? Or just outmacroed and taken my third?
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 02 2011 05:48 XXhkXX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 05:31 Xanbatou wrote:
I've been having a lot of trouble lately against terrans that open helion. What exactly is the proper response to helion? I've always been very unsure of what to do because the terran can do many things at this point. I'm never sure if the terran is doing:
1. Teching to banshees
2. Blue-flame
3. Stopping production after a few helions
4. going mass helions then switching to mass marauder production.
If it's 1, I absolutely need queens or spore crawlers, because mutas wont be up in time.
if it's 2, I absolutely need roaches as the main unit in my army. Zerglings die too fast to blue flame helions.
If it's 3, I don't have to get roaches because speedlings can handle them juts fine.
If it's 4, I'm not sure what to do.
How do I properly respond to helions, given there are so many things the terran can do after? I struggle against 4 as well, hellions into mass marauder seems deadlier to me than a seige tank timing push. The only thing I can think of is getting mutas up in time to deal with it by getting an earlier lair, or using a spine ling defence. Edit: So I was just laddering and I ended up vsing a random opponent on Shakuras Plateau. I sent a scout at 9, just to be sure of my build and scout out any cheese. And sure enough, I see him laying down two gateways at his front door (yea he was protoss). So I had gone 14 14, and as soon as my pool finished i layed down my RW, skipping zergling speed in the process just to be safe, and I ended up keeping drones on gas. I made 3 roaches, which arrived before his push, and then 4 more followed. I held off his 4 zealots using my roaches and my queen, and then layed down my expo (he retreated after seeing my roaches). So at this point I sent my overlord into his base to scout his transition, and saw him lay down a forge (so I knew he was expanding). So I opted to go for a 2 base all in. So I carried out the two base all in with my intial roaches and some speedling support, he had two cannons near his choke at his natural, and a few units, yet he held it off. I stubbornly kept trying this again, but eventually he got an immortal out and countered, thereby killing me off. So my question is should I have countered earlier? Or just outmacroed and taken my third?
I wouldd get spines to defend against hellions plus queens and some speedlings.
I dont think the terran player would really make the transition after that cuz its really easy for me to just make some more lings and killa bunch of marauders which suck against lings.
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On July 02 2011 12:06 Walls wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 02 2011 05:48 XXhkXX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 05:31 Xanbatou wrote:
I've been having a lot of trouble lately against terrans that open helion. What exactly is the proper response to helion? I've always been very unsure of what to do because the terran can do many things at this point. I'm never sure if the terran is doing:
1. Teching to banshees
2. Blue-flame
3. Stopping production after a few helions
4. going mass helions then switching to mass marauder production.
If it's 1, I absolutely need queens or spore crawlers, because mutas wont be up in time.
if it's 2, I absolutely need roaches as the main unit in my army. Zerglings die too fast to blue flame helions.
If it's 3, I don't have to get roaches because speedlings can handle them juts fine.
If it's 4, I'm not sure what to do.
How do I properly respond to helions, given there are so many things the terran can do after? I struggle against 4 as well, hellions into mass marauder seems deadlier to me than a seige tank timing push. The only thing I can think of is getting mutas up in time to deal with it by getting an earlier lair, or using a spine ling defence. Edit: So I was just laddering and I ended up vsing a random opponent on Shakuras Plateau. I sent a scout at 9, just to be sure of my build and scout out any cheese. And sure enough, I see him laying down two gateways at his front door (yea he was protoss). So I had gone 14 14, and as soon as my pool finished i layed down my RW, skipping zergling speed in the process just to be safe, and I ended up keeping drones on gas. I made 3 roaches, which arrived before his push, and then 4 more followed. I held off his 4 zealots using my roaches and my queen, and then layed down my expo (he retreated after seeing my roaches). So at this point I sent my overlord into his base to scout his transition, and saw him lay down a forge (so I knew he was expanding). So I opted to go for a 2 base all in. So I carried out the two base all in with my intial roaches and some speedling support, he had two cannons near his choke at his natural, and a few units, yet he held it off. I stubbornly kept trying this again, but eventually he got an immortal out and countered, thereby killing me off. So my question is should I have countered earlier? Or just outmacroed and taken my third? I wouldd get spines to defend against hellions plus queens and some speedlings. I dont think the terran player would really make the transition after that cuz its really easy for me to just make some more lings and killa bunch of marauders which suck against lings.
I've tried this before but it doesn't seem like the best response. To be honest, I think roaches might be better because:
1. They are more larva efficient
2. Marauders don't rape roaches nearly as hard as blue flame helions rape lings. After you kill the helions you can probably reinforce with lings tho. Idk though..
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On July 02 2011 14:49 Xanbatou wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 12:06 Walls wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 02 2011 05:48 XXhkXX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 05:31 Xanbatou wrote:
I've been having a lot of trouble lately against terrans that open helion. What exactly is the proper response to helion? I've always been very unsure of what to do because the terran can do many things at this point. I'm never sure if the terran is doing:
1. Teching to banshees
2. Blue-flame
3. Stopping production after a few helions
4. going mass helions then switching to mass marauder production.
If it's 1, I absolutely need queens or spore crawlers, because mutas wont be up in time.
if it's 2, I absolutely need roaches as the main unit in my army. Zerglings die too fast to blue flame helions.
If it's 3, I don't have to get roaches because speedlings can handle them juts fine.
If it's 4, I'm not sure what to do.
How do I properly respond to helions, given there are so many things the terran can do after? I struggle against 4 as well, hellions into mass marauder seems deadlier to me than a seige tank timing push. The only thing I can think of is getting mutas up in time to deal with it by getting an earlier lair, or using a spine ling defence. Edit: So I was just laddering and I ended up vsing a random opponent on Shakuras Plateau. I sent a scout at 9, just to be sure of my build and scout out any cheese. And sure enough, I see him laying down two gateways at his front door (yea he was protoss). So I had gone 14 14, and as soon as my pool finished i layed down my RW, skipping zergling speed in the process just to be safe, and I ended up keeping drones on gas. I made 3 roaches, which arrived before his push, and then 4 more followed. I held off his 4 zealots using my roaches and my queen, and then layed down my expo (he retreated after seeing my roaches). So at this point I sent my overlord into his base to scout his transition, and saw him lay down a forge (so I knew he was expanding). So I opted to go for a 2 base all in. So I carried out the two base all in with my intial roaches and some speedling support, he had two cannons near his choke at his natural, and a few units, yet he held it off. I stubbornly kept trying this again, but eventually he got an immortal out and countered, thereby killing me off. So my question is should I have countered earlier? Or just outmacroed and taken my third? I wouldd get spines to defend against hellions plus queens and some speedlings. I dont think the terran player would really make the transition after that cuz its really easy for me to just make some more lings and killa bunch of marauders which suck against lings. I've tried this before but it doesn't seem like the best response. To be honest, I think roaches might be better because: 1. They are more larva efficient 2. Marauders don't rape roaches nearly as hard as blue flame helions rape lings. After you kill the helions you can probably reinforce with lings tho. Idk though..
Once they hit blue flame, there really is no other choice but to go roach. I've read somewhere else that against a marauder hellion composition one simply needs to make appropriate amounts of roach/ling, and engage the army properly, roaches hitting hellion, zerglings hitting marauders. I don't run into that strategy much, but I've lost to it every time, so maybe I'm doing something wrong, go mutas? haha..
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Have roaches. Destroy hellions first. Save the lings in a spot and once hellions dead send in lings.
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On July 02 2011 15:30 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 14:49 Xanbatou wrote:On July 02 2011 12:06 Walls wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 02 2011 05:48 XXhkXX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 05:31 Xanbatou wrote:
I've been having a lot of trouble lately against terrans that open helion. What exactly is the proper response to helion? I've always been very unsure of what to do because the terran can do many things at this point. I'm never sure if the terran is doing:
1. Teching to banshees
2. Blue-flame
3. Stopping production after a few helions
4. going mass helions then switching to mass marauder production.
If it's 1, I absolutely need queens or spore crawlers, because mutas wont be up in time.
if it's 2, I absolutely need roaches as the main unit in my army. Zerglings die too fast to blue flame helions.
If it's 3, I don't have to get roaches because speedlings can handle them juts fine.
If it's 4, I'm not sure what to do.
How do I properly respond to helions, given there are so many things the terran can do after? I struggle against 4 as well, hellions into mass marauder seems deadlier to me than a seige tank timing push. The only thing I can think of is getting mutas up in time to deal with it by getting an earlier lair, or using a spine ling defence. Edit: So I was just laddering and I ended up vsing a random opponent on Shakuras Plateau. I sent a scout at 9, just to be sure of my build and scout out any cheese. And sure enough, I see him laying down two gateways at his front door (yea he was protoss). So I had gone 14 14, and as soon as my pool finished i layed down my RW, skipping zergling speed in the process just to be safe, and I ended up keeping drones on gas. I made 3 roaches, which arrived before his push, and then 4 more followed. I held off his 4 zealots using my roaches and my queen, and then layed down my expo (he retreated after seeing my roaches). So at this point I sent my overlord into his base to scout his transition, and saw him lay down a forge (so I knew he was expanding). So I opted to go for a 2 base all in. So I carried out the two base all in with my intial roaches and some speedling support, he had two cannons near his choke at his natural, and a few units, yet he held it off. I stubbornly kept trying this again, but eventually he got an immortal out and countered, thereby killing me off. So my question is should I have countered earlier? Or just outmacroed and taken my third? I wouldd get spines to defend against hellions plus queens and some speedlings. I dont think the terran player would really make the transition after that cuz its really easy for me to just make some more lings and killa bunch of marauders which suck against lings. I've tried this before but it doesn't seem like the best response. To be honest, I think roaches might be better because: 1. They are more larva efficient 2. Marauders don't rape roaches nearly as hard as blue flame helions rape lings. After you kill the helions you can probably reinforce with lings tho. Idk though.. Once they hit blue flame, there really is no other choice but to go roach. I've read somewhere else that against a marauder hellion composition one simply needs to make appropriate amounts of roach/ling, and engage the army properly, roaches hitting hellion, zerglings hitting marauders. I don't run into that strategy much, but I've lost to it every time, so maybe I'm doing something wrong, go mutas? haha..
Thats what I was thinking. I've tried going roaches to kill hellions and then sending in lings, but that was quite ineffecient because they usually have all their marauders grouped up together; usually when they go for a maruader hellion push, they dont get blue flame, but the hellions and marauders stay nice and compact together and therefore the hellions are still very cost effective against zerglings. Mutas seem to really be the only solution I can think of. But its kind of a weird strat to scout out, as the hellions could just be for harass.
So how do u deal with 2 gate pressure?
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On July 02 2011 05:48 XXhkXX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 05:31 Xanbatou wrote:
I've been having a lot of trouble lately against terrans that open helion. What exactly is the proper response to helion? I've always been very unsure of what to do because the terran can do many things at this point. I'm never sure if the terran is doing:
1. Teching to banshees
2. Blue-flame
3. Stopping production after a few helions
4. going mass helions then switching to mass marauder production.
If it's 1, I absolutely need queens or spore crawlers, because mutas wont be up in time.
if it's 2, I absolutely need roaches as the main unit in my army. Zerglings die too fast to blue flame helions.
If it's 3, I don't have to get roaches because speedlings can handle them juts fine.
If it's 4, I'm not sure what to do.
How do I properly respond to helions, given there are so many things the terran can do after? I struggle against 4 as well, hellions into mass marauder seems deadlier to me than a seige tank timing push. The only thing I can think of is getting mutas up in time to deal with it by getting an earlier lair, or using a spine ling defence. Edit: So I was just laddering and I ended up vsing a random opponent on Shakuras Plateau. I sent a scout at 9, just to be sure of my build and scout out any cheese. And sure enough, I see him laying down two gateways at his front door (yea he was protoss). So I had gone 14 14, and as soon as my pool finished i layed down my RW, skipping zergling speed in the process just to be safe, and I ended up keeping drones on gas. I made 3 roaches, which arrived before his push, and then 4 more followed. I held off his 4 zealots using my roaches and my queen, and then layed down my expo (he retreated after seeing my roaches). So at this point I sent my overlord into his base to scout his transition, and saw him lay down a forge (so I knew he was expanding). So I opted to go for a 2 base all in. So I carried out the two base all in with my intial roaches and some speedling support, he had two cannons near his choke at his natural, and a few units, yet he held it off. I stubbornly kept trying this again, but eventually he got an immortal out and countered, thereby killing me off. So my question is should I have countered earlier? Or just outmacroed and taken my third?
It's much better to just drone up, after you see him throwing up the forge, most likely he would be preparing for a counter attack. It's ok to counter-attack but you have to make sure you can finish him off or get rid most of his workers. Afterall, you dropped an expo, no reason not to make drones and get your econ up and let him waste his resources in cannons.
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EPT
