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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Transferring half seems pretty overboard. Watching idra in his MLG reps, it seems like he does 3-4. It's really not a big deal, you can always just rally your hatches to whichever min line is undersaturated to even it out.
Which is why I've been hesitant to just straight up transfer half, because you do lose mining time while moving the drones which is a factor as well. I heard on one of the casts for GSL them say something like the "typical transfer over of 6 drones" and I didn't know if they was just them basically counting what he transferred over, or if like 6 was an optimal number to get the other base going while not sacrificing to many minerals in the process.
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I hope this hasn't been asked yet. I did read some of the thread, but it is a monster. I also didn't see this question in the first few pages of the strategy section.
Anyway, I am a recently promoted gold league player. My knowledge of the game is decent. My ability to execute said knowledge is not so decent. I have narrowed this issue down to right about 36 food. In short, what should I be doing during this period (36-50ish supply)?
I recently watched the day9 droning tutorial which has certainly helped me to get a ton of drones out (not over-saturation). It has also helped me realize that I don't need to build a large army before I see him about to move out. But now what happens is I end up with a ton of minerals and no idea what to do.
I have narrowed down a few problems by watching replays. I need to get better about spawning overlords. Every time I am supply blocked, my minerals start to go up fairly quickly. I can afford but rarely throw down and use an evo chamber. I also need to scout better so I can start to build decent counters... but even with all of this, it seems like it won't stop my mineral float... just make it better.
Are there any units that are "must haves" that I should burn larvae and minerals on? Like say 20 slings in ZvT by 50 supply or anything like that? Should I build tech structures that I've yet to get "just in case"? Should I have a plan in mind, and execute that on top of counters (like muta harass or mass roach)?
Sorry for the wall o' text, but I am wordy.
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On October 21 2010 01:27 QSpec wrote:
I hope this hasn't been asked yet. I did read some of the thread, but it is a monster. I also didn't see this question in the first few pages of the strategy section.
Anyway, I am a recently promoted gold league player. My knowledge of the game is decent. My ability to execute said knowledge is not so decent. I have narrowed this issue down to right about 36 food. In short, what should I be doing during this period (36-50ish supply)?
I recently watched the day9 droning tutorial which has certainly helped me to get a ton of drones out (not over-saturation). It has also helped me realize that I don't need to build a large army before I see him about to move out. But now what happens is I end up with a ton of minerals and no idea what to do.
I have narrowed down a few problems by watching replays. I need to get better about spawning overlords. Every time I am supply blocked, my minerals start to go up fairly quickly. I can afford but rarely throw down and use an evo chamber. I also need to scout better so I can start to build decent counters... but even with all of this, it seems like it won't stop my mineral float... just make it better.
Are there any units that are "must haves" that I should burn larvae and minerals on? Like say 20 slings in ZvT by 50 supply or anything like that? Should I build tech structures that I've yet to get "just in case"? Should I have a plan in mind, and execute that on top of counters (like muta harass or mass roach)?
Sorry for the wall o' text, but I am wordy.
There aren't any concrete rules in SC like "build 20 lings by X supply", because whether or not you need those lings is dependent on what the opponent is doing. If you are always finding yourself with an excess of minerals, maybe try taking your gases faster? It's a really hard question to answer without a replay, but in general you probably just need to tighten up your build order. Those excess minerals could easily have been more gas which you could use to tech or upgrade. Also, I guess it's worth it to mention that you should make sure you are hitting your injections, as the lack of larvae could also be causing your problem.
In general though, if you have a ton of minerals, you can always just throw down an extra hatchery or make an extra queen or two, which you can just use to spread creep until they're needed at an expansion.
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On October 20 2010 01:08 magha wrote:
1400 Zerg here
Is there someone who can help me with the mechanics of the "new" ZvZ. Since a few weeks people have moved away from 1base ling/bling and gone towards a far more interesting FE-roach-hydra build.
How do I go about to avoid being wide open for cheese every game?
Ive had massive success so far with 14hatch-13pool in ZvZ being able to defend an ordinary 14pool/14gas but whenever someone feels like it they can easily do some kind of 6 up to 10pool in combination with drones (for attacking or spine crawlers in my base) and kill me instantly.
I'm guessing the best thing to do is scout and don't hatch until you've scouted nothing or a late/normal pool? Can some high ranked Zerg elaborate a bit?
Man this thread is so beast lol I recently just started using/reading teamliquid forums. Anyways I'm around 1700 and I too have been doing 14hatch 13/14pool in zvz. Against any zerg who is at all sloppy with his opening build order/larva spit/etc, i can defend my FE no probs. But against a zerg who does something like 13gas and pool into speedling with baneling like really god damn quickly and then just pumps out no more drones and only lings/banelings I feel most of the time i cant hold.
I feel like the only maps this build will consistently be defendable will be jungle basin (because you can really quickly roach block the choke. lol roach block.) or shakuras plat where the distance is pretty long. Please PM me if you figure out a way to do hatch first consistently without dying to someone who does a 13/14pool.
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On October 21 2010 12:07 mrfatbush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2010 01:08 magha wrote:
1400 Zerg here
Is there someone who can help me with the mechanics of the "new" ZvZ. Since a few weeks people have moved away from 1base ling/bling and gone towards a far more interesting FE-roach-hydra build.
How do I go about to avoid being wide open for cheese every game?
Ive had massive success so far with 14hatch-13pool in ZvZ being able to defend an ordinary 14pool/14gas but whenever someone feels like it they can easily do some kind of 6 up to 10pool in combination with drones (for attacking or spine crawlers in my base) and kill me instantly.
I'm guessing the best thing to do is scout and don't hatch until you've scouted nothing or a late/normal pool? Can some high ranked Zerg elaborate a bit? Man this thread is so beast lol I recently just started using/reading teamliquid forums. Anyways I'm around 1700 and I too have been doing 14hatch 13/14pool in zvz. Against any zerg who is at all sloppy with his opening build order/larva spit/etc, i can defend my FE no probs. But against a zerg who does something like 13gas and pool into speedling with baneling like really god damn quickly and then just pumps out no more drones and only lings/banelings I feel most of the time i cant hold. I feel like the only maps this build will consistently be defendable will be jungle basin (because you can really quickly roach block the choke. lol roach block.) or shakuras plat where the distance is pretty long. Please PM me if you figure out a way to do hatch first consistently without dying to someone who does a 13/14pool.
Sixghost and me were practicing this scenario a few days ago.
On maps like Xel'Naga Caverns, going hatch first against a ling/bling play is almost undefendable.
However, on maps with more enclosed nats like Lost Temple, you can defend the ling/bling plays relatively easily with good building placement, queens, and speedlings.
Evo chambers in front of spines, queens to tank banes, and lings to clog up whatever other holes you have, and to clean up the mess.
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Hey guys, this is my first post but i've been lurking on this forum for ages reading this strategy. I am posting because i can't seem to an answer in other threads.
I am a gold zerg (excuse the newbness, and i've been losing to my friend (diamond) when he goes 2 gate pressure. Previously i beat him fairly easily with a macro based build.
I usually go 14 pool/15 hatch against him, and when i scout 2 gates i make a spine and some lings as soon asap. however, when he scouts my expo he sticks up a aforge and proceeds to start cannoning my expo whilst his zealots engage my queen/lings. I've been dying outright to this many times, and when i do survive i am usually very behind as he expands under the protection of his simicity and i begin a slow death for 20 minutes.
I've tried countering with a quick roach warrren before i expand but as soon as he scouts early gas he doesn't rush +/- RW (with no expand) he proceeds to expand under protection of cannons/zealots. Again i can't keep up with him economically (protoss units are much more efficient).
I was wondering how zergs should react when seeing 2 gates (+/- forge) without falling too far behind.
I want to post a replay....how do i do that (newb!).
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On October 24 2010 14:08 Eray wrote:
Hey guys, this is my first post but i've been lurking on this forum for ages reading this strategy. I am posting because i can't seem to an answer in other threads.
I am a gold zerg (excuse the newbness, and i've been losing to my friend (diamond) when he goes 2 gate pressure. Previously i beat him fairly easily with a macro based build.
I usually go 14 pool/15 hatch against him, and when i scout 2 gates i make a spine and some lings as soon asap. however, when he scouts my expo he sticks up a aforge and proceeds to start cannoning my expo whilst his zealots engage my queen/lings. I've been dying outright to this many times, and when i do survive i am usually very behind as he expands under the protection of his simicity and i begin a slow death for 20 minutes.
I've tried countering with a quick roach warrren before i expand but as soon as he scouts early gas he doesn't rush +/- RW (with no expand) he proceeds to expand under protection of cannons/zealots. Again i can't keep up with him economically (protoss units are much more efficient).
I was wondering how zergs should react when seeing 2 gates (+/- forge) without falling too far behind.
I want to post a replay....how do i do that (newb!).
hello, i would actually really enjoy to see a replay of this so i could give you some help.
find the replay at the replays section in-game, and save the file. then upload it to a site like sc2replayed.com, then just link the file here.
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On October 21 2010 12:07 mrfatbush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2010 01:08 magha wrote:
1400 Zerg here
Is there someone who can help me with the mechanics of the "new" ZvZ. Since a few weeks people have moved away from 1base ling/bling and gone towards a far more interesting FE-roach-hydra build.
How do I go about to avoid being wide open for cheese every game?
Ive had massive success so far with 14hatch-13pool in ZvZ being able to defend an ordinary 14pool/14gas but whenever someone feels like it they can easily do some kind of 6 up to 10pool in combination with drones (for attacking or spine crawlers in my base) and kill me instantly.
I'm guessing the best thing to do is scout and don't hatch until you've scouted nothing or a late/normal pool? Can some high ranked Zerg elaborate a bit? Man this thread is so beast lol I recently just started using/reading teamliquid forums. Anyways I'm around 1700 and I too have been doing 14hatch 13/14pool in zvz. Against any zerg who is at all sloppy with his opening build order/larva spit/etc, i can defend my FE no probs. But against a zerg who does something like 13gas and pool into speedling with baneling like really god damn quickly and then just pumps out no more drones and only lings/banelings I feel most of the time i cant hold. I feel like the only maps this build will consistently be defendable will be jungle basin (because you can really quickly roach block the choke. lol roach block.) or shakuras plat where the distance is pretty long. Please PM me if you figure out a way to do hatch first consistently without dying to someone who does a 13/14pool.
I usually go 15 gas 15 pool if I don't see an early pool from my opponent, and any hatch first builds usually tear me up really bad If I try to stay on 1 base baneling. They often have spine crawlers up at their nat by the time I have banelings out, and they help block the banelings with queens as well and much more often than not I end up tapping out cause I just can't break their turtle and they're a base up on me.
1750 dia currently and I still don't know how to play zvz past 1 base to be honest. I was watching Dimaga/TLO/Sen's games from blizzcon and it just confused the hell out of me thinking about all the different timings and responses and whatnot that you have to know for hatch first builds. I fare pretty well with my 1 base play so far vs 1 base roach and baneling wars, so instead of changing my opener completely I'll just ask this first.
If I put down a pool at 14/15 supply and see them going hatch first, what is the best response I can make to their build? Should I expand right after pool at 16 supply? It seems like they can have too many spine crawlers up for 1 base roach or baneling play but perhaps my BO's are off. Thanks in advance.
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^I usually plop down a hatch asap while still getting 6 lings. Take advantage of your earlier pool by being aggressive; if you can force an overreaction from him in terms of making too many lings, you can get about even.
The other option is, depending on the map, getting speed and blings asap and just unloading pressure on him and force him to crack.
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So If I FE in response, is it still typical to expect a baneling war afterwards, only it's on 2 base now instead of 1? ;p I suppose Dimaga did beat Sen in just that exact scenario on LT.
One thing I also had to comment on, was that in these 20+ min long games of sen/tlo/dimaga, no one ever went mutas(except dimaga to kill TLO's broodlords at the very end of the match). Is this because 4+ gas hydra/infestor shuts down mutas so bad? On steppes of war at the 14 min mark neither Sen or Dimaga had any AA out besides queens and I just thought that was so damn ballsy that they didn't give a damn about the possibility of mutas popping out ;p
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Didn't go through all of the thread, just the last couple, but I need help ZvP against a 3gate robo push.
I try to 15 hatch zvp unless they block my nat, and hold off with lings + 1 spine if needed. I can usually keep a drone alive in their base to see
1. Single gate into core
2. Add 2nd and 3rd gateways after core, and
3. Chronoboosting warp research.
At this point the drone usually dies from a stalker, and I feel like I have to guess at the build their going to use. If it's a 4 gate, I usually try and use a mix of roaches, speedlings and 2 spines. Problem is, if it isn't a 4 gate and they add a robo and wait until they have an immortal or 2 before they push, I just wasted a lot of time making lings/roaches when I could have been droning. When they do finally push, it's mostly stalkers, with some immortals and sentries mixed in. If I go too heavy on roaches I get crushed, and lings don't seem effective because of how big their ball of units is.
Are any other zergs having this problem? Seems like the only builds I've encountered ZvP for a little while. I think hydras could work, but I don't have a good timing for them, especially if they push before I expect.
Q. Against Protoss, I feel like if I can't perfectly guess the build they are using, I have to play it safe and invest in defense earlier. If they decide to push later with 3/4 gates and a robo, the push is too large to stop because I don't have the economy to do so, stemming from not being able to drone earlier. Also looking for tips on army composition and proper amount of sunkens.
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http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/95179-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
Replay is here. Please ignore all the newbie things like letting mineral stack up. The main thing i am trying to fnid is how to hold this off in a cost efficient way.
Thanks!
On October 24 2010 14:30 tieya wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 14:08 Eray wrote:
Hey guys, this is my first post but i've been lurking on this forum for ages reading this strategy. I am posting because i can't seem to an answer in other threads.
I am a gold zerg (excuse the newbness, and i've been losing to my friend (diamond) when he goes 2 gate pressure. Previously i beat him fairly easily with a macro based build.
I usually go 14 pool/15 hatch against him, and when i scout 2 gates i make a spine and some lings as soon asap. however, when he scouts my expo he sticks up a aforge and proceeds to start cannoning my expo whilst his zealots engage my queen/lings. I've been dying outright to this many times, and when i do survive i am usually very behind as he expands under the protection of his simicity and i begin a slow death for 20 minutes.
I've tried countering with a quick roach warrren before i expand but as soon as he scouts early gas he doesn't rush +/- RW (with no expand) he proceeds to expand under protection of cannons/zealots. Again i can't keep up with him economically (protoss units are much more efficient).
I was wondering how zergs should react when seeing 2 gates (+/- forge) without falling too far behind.
I want to post a replay....how do i do that (newb!). hello, i would actually really enjoy to see a replay of this so i could give you some help. find the replay at the replays section in-game, and save the file. then upload it to a site like sc2replayed.com, then just link the file here.
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hello! im a 1400 diamond player and ive been having a lot of trouble with my ZvP lately, especially 4 gates and forge expands. my build order is pretty much the same as urs for defending the 4 gate, 14 pool 15 hatch, drone till 30 and then mass lings. the problem is when my opponent scouts the shizload of lings, then proceeds to mass zealots, how would you deal with this?
the forge fast expand is also a pretty hard opener for me to deal with. a couple well placed cannons and forcefields can keep roach/lings out if i try an early attack. would the best solution be to go for an third? or just scout and try to get a better composition than him and break in?
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Try dimagas +1 speedling build
It stops 2gate and 4gate so easy and you can also transition into mutas if he goes mass zeals
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No question, just dropping by to say this is a great thread.
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On October 24 2010 18:19 kerminator wrote:
Try dimagas +1 speedling build
It stops 2gate and 4gate so easy and you can also transition into mutas if he goes mass zeals
You're responding to my post right? I'll look it up, thanks for the reply!
edit: where should I find this build?
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On October 24 2010 16:27 Tachion wrote:
So If I FE in response, is it still typical to expect a baneling war afterwards, only it's on 2 base now instead of 1? ;p I suppose Dimaga did beat Sen in just that exact scenario on LT.
One thing I also had to comment on, was that in these 20+ min long games of sen/tlo/dimaga, no one ever went mutas(except dimaga to kill TLO's broodlords at the very end of the match). Is this because 4+ gas hydra/infestor shuts down mutas so bad? On steppes of war at the 14 min mark neither Sen or Dimaga had any AA out besides queens and I just thought that was so damn ballsy that they didn't give a damn about the possibility of mutas popping out ;p
Once infestors are out its incredibly risky to be running around with mutas. Hydras outrange mutas so one good fungal and you can kiss ALL your mutas goodbye.
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Try dimagas +1 speedling build
edit: where should I find this build?
I think it's this one. Correct me if I'm wrong 
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Let's talk about overpool in ZvZ.
Hatch first is getting extremely common. On some maps, its almost automatic.
Overpool turns that into an autowin in most cases.
BO:
10 Overlord
10 Pool
Drone to 13
6+queen, putting us at 18/18
and then expand.
Obviously this will get squashed by almost any pool first build, but against hatch first, it establishes an instant advantage, as lings are guaranteed to be in your opponents base before he's able to start his first zerglings.
Discuss?
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I dont see why anyone ever builds a hatchery first in zvz on 1v1 maps. Seems to me like anything other than 6 pool just gets shut down if you dont have to scout.
Is this just not true? I'm a 1200 silver level and I havn't lost a zvz all week on 1v1 maps by just 6 pooling. I only run into trouble occasionally if they 7-8 pool and manage to pop a few lings and eventually a queen out on me. Usually I can deal by sniping whatever then racing them to muta. At worst, they turtle up and I just sauron with my air control.
What's the counter to 6 pool? Why should I not continue doing it every zvz on 1v1 maps?
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EPT
