EPTTTB's PvP 2-1-1 build - Page 2
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StillRooney
Sweden106 Posts
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ccJroy
United States483 Posts
I never go VR's before immortals because of the problems that most PvP's mindset is "Stalker wars". Too many people right now just mass stalkers, with or withoutblink and thats what it usually boils down to on most maps. To counter this thought/mindset i usually get at least 1 immortal before i start pumping VR's as well, if u scout 4 gate then keep massing immortals and add gates as needed. immortal/zealot/stalker/sentry>4 gate. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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ccJroy
United States483 Posts
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Anomandaris
Afghanistan440 Posts
On September 13 2010 01:44 xDaunt wrote: This build WILL die to dedicated 4 gate pressure. Period. You simply cannot produce immortals, void rays, and gateway units from 2 gates simultaneously on 1 base. You can do 3 gate + robo or 2 gate + void ray. In order to have enough gas to produce void rays and immortals, you'll have to cut all sentry production. This gives the other a toss a free shot at breaking your ramp with his superior numbers. The immortals will get torn up by the zealots, and stalker/sentry will kill the 2-3 void rays that you have. I absolutely agree. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On September 13 2010 01:51 justinsroy wrote: Daunt, its called scouting, and adapting. Done. Unless your opponent is bad, you're not going to beat a 4gate rush if you have already sunk money into a stargate and a robo. That's too many lost resources that could and should have been spent on units. If you scout something that looks like 4gate and do something else, that's an entirely different build at that point. I'm just saying that 2-1-1 will die to a good 4 gate. | ||
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shannn
Netherlands2891 Posts
The replays you posted weren't really 4gate non-korean or korean. I'd like to see if this succeeds vs those builds. Since you don't research warpgate (which can be seen just looking at cybernetics) it means u won't have many sentries if not at all if they scout your wall. Then a good 4gate push will kill your gateways/cybernetics which you will not be able to stop with your ground army. Then it's just a coin toss if you can get out your VR's in time or they'll kill your stargate. I agree with xDaunt that a proper 4gate(korean) will bust your wall and kill your stargate and the rest of your army after which they can then just make a few stalkers after they busted in your base. Without a sentry to FF ramp you won't be able to stop any ground army from busting your wall. Then it's going to be a coin toss if you can get out your VR fast and VR do NOT kill zealots fast so they can just kill your stargate if they see it or robo and then you're basically out of air units and you cannot get more ground units since they will die to the 4gate ground army push. Edit: Just tested it on metalopolis vs computer cross positions so the longest rush distance. A proper korean 4gate will result in warpgate finishing about 5 min 20 sec (pro 4gate probably just below 5 minute mark with close positions since I forgot 1 time to CB cybernetics). At which at this point you'll instantly warp in units so you'll be at around 8 zealots (depending if you produce zealots while upgrading warpgate) right at your enemies base with first warp in and about 30 sec later your next 4 zealots too. At your replays your stargate finishes at 6 minute and 30 sec which means if I did a korean 4gate I'd have about 16 zealots out by the time your stargate finishes and no robo done yet. Just judging from my own test of a korean 4gate I'd say you won't have a VR out when a korean 4gate is pushing out but you probably could get 1 and if you properly micro your units you'd be able to get 2 VR's out after which you'd be able to slowly kill all the zealots but who knows what those zealots would focus on. Probes/stargate/gateways/pylons etc. This will most likely work if you have a long distance map so I think NB said it in a previous post this will succesfully work on a map like Scrap Station or Xel'naga Caverns which the korean 4gate will come out way too late. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/0178_Plexa_youngminii_.sc2replay http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/0179_Plexa_youngminii_.sc2replay http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/0180_Plexa_youngminii_.sc2replay | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
I actually think it *might* work against Robo play but if your opponent isn't good enough to scout what you're teching to, you'd have probably beaten with him a 4 gate yourself. Agreed with Plexa in that I'd rather Phoenix. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On September 13 2010 02:23 xDaunt wrote: Here's the other thing that I initially missed about the build: he's skipping warpgate tech and not throwing down his robo until he sees whether his opponent has a robo (or at least I assume that's what he's doing unless he's advocating that the toss drop a second stargate after robo while still on one base). Hell, it's not even clear when he builds his stargate, but it looks like this is basically a glorified 2-gate + stargate build that adds a robo late. This dies to a good 4gate rush. End of story. The 4-gating toss will be on full 4gate production and have twice the troops and twice the production that the 2-1-1 toss will have. 2 gate stargate, can defend 4 warpgate. Pretty sure I have a replay where I played against you with that build. | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
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CanucksJC
Canada1241 Posts
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taketobreak
73 Posts
On September 13 2010 02:23 xDaunt wrote: Here's the other thing that I initially missed about the build: he's skipping warpgate tech and not throwing down his robo until he sees whether his opponent has a robo (or at least I assume that's what he's doing unless he's advocating that the toss drop a second stargate after robo while still on one base). Hell, it's not even clear when he builds his stargate, but it looks like this is basically a glorified 2-gate + stargate build that adds a robo late. This dies to a good 4gate rush. End of story. The 4-gating toss will be on full 4gate production and have twice the troops and twice the production that the 2-1-1 toss will have. the build wants to get up 2 warpgates, 1 robo, and 1 stargate initially vs a 4gate you will have equal production capacity, but a 2-1-1 build spends 200 extra gas on his production buildings. 4gate + warptech costs 650/50 2-1-1 costs 650/250 4gates and 2-1-1 both have enough production capacity to eat up 700 minerals / 250 gas a minute. the 2-1-1 has more production capacity than4gates of both players expanded. im still trying to modify the build and figure out the best way to get to 2-1-1 while having the most units possible early game and a matching economy. it might be better to throw down the second gateway faster. or it might not be. people saying this 2-1-1 is too slow should realize this build is 200 gas slower than 4gate which means its about 15 seconds slower. that doesnt mean much really because you can stall for 15 seconds while your enemies warpgates will be on cooldown from the first warp in. you will have stalkers/zeals and your enemy will have stalkers/zeals so that 15 seconds doesnt mean much there will just be lots of running around. a 1base toss can gets 950 resources (700 minerals 250 gas) a minute so im just calling 200gas equal to roughly 25% of that (so 1/4 of a minute is 15 seconds). i know 200 is not 25% of 950 im just being liberal about it. the second stargate is to counter collossi if you scout collossi. if your enemy does not get collossi then you dont need that second stargate but usually if your enemy has a robo hes going for collossi. VR / zealot will defeat collossi / stalker. but immortal/vr/zealot will lose to collossi/stalker because immortals take away from your vr count. im playing more games right now and theres protoss everywhere on the ladder so i should have more replays soon | ||
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OminouS
Sweden1343 Posts
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lasershark
United States49 Posts
Zealot/immortal/VR is a strong composition to go for and dominates mid game PvP. Yes, you will have to do different things before you can get there, depending on what your opponent does, but it is almost always possible to eventually get this combination and become very threatening with it. Your build is bad, horribly timed, and won't hold any reasonable 4gate. I adapted it, to see if the unit combination would work and well... i don't see any reason to be building VRs from the Stargate instead of Phoenix - the phoenix seems superior in every way. I don't know why you bothered posting any of those replays. They are pretty pointless and prove nothing. First two games were not even worth watching and third game was fail control / positioning. So his build order isn't the best, who cares? At least he started a topic on this. Anyways, I like this topic because it brings up the zealot/immortal/VR combo. However, I think you guys are taking the wrong approach to this build. Let me share how I use this in PvP. Zealot/immortal/VR can be an extremely strong timing attack. When is the best time to attack? The best time to attack is when an opponent goes robo and gets his/her first colossus. How do you defend against 2 gate and all the variations of 4 gate? With the standard counters. Personally, I always get 9 pylon/scout 13 gate. If my opponent is 2 gating I match his zealot count until it is safe to tech to stalker. If my opponent is doing a korean 4 gate I add a second gateway early and chrono boost zealots to overwhelm him. If my opponent is doing a normal 4 gate I get a fast immortal and usually 3 gateways. "There's no stargate involved" You're right. Don't add a stargate until it is safe to do so. When your opponent is being aggressive with gateways, defend with a standard robo build until it's safe to build a stargate. When your opponent is doing a robo build: THIS is when you can get away with doing a build similar to what TTB described in his original post. Once you get your zealot/immortal/VR mix you will dominate with proper micro. I usually expand when I start moving out. It is important to have 3 gateways by the time you move out because having a high zealot count is important. The game usually ends when your VR's are charged up at his base and you are constantly reinforcing. Why does this work? Zealot + immortal (and some sentries) dominate protoss ground and quickly get rid of the only real threat to your VR's. Once your VR's are charged there is little to nothing the opponent can do to stop them when their stalker count gets really low. Why should I listen to you? You don't have to. I just want people to realize that this is a viable strategy. Right now I'm a 1250 protoss and am climbing the ladder very fast. My strongest matchup is PvP and I never have any trouble using zealot/immortal/VR. While you guys sit here and talk about how this build is bad, I will be winning/having fun with it on bnet. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
I only make zealots. | ||
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taketobreak
73 Posts
this toss went for blink stalkers sentry. and it does show that this build can be pretty weak to it because that first attack had me trapped behind my ramp but i ended up winning the battles and the game even though he had larger army than me because of my unit composition http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&&id=148551 | ||
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Cynoks
United States87 Posts
I've been trying to figure out how to make a 2-1-1 build work for awhile now and this looks pretty solid the only thing I don't like is without an observer you're pretty blind but I'll give this build a shot. | ||
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taketobreak
73 Posts
On September 12 2010 22:42 StillRooney wrote: I've tried it this build and I really like it but I can't seem to make it work against (nonkearn) 4gate that pushes right at the first warp-in on maps with bigger ramps (like Scrap Station). I simply can't get the first Void Ray out in time and still have a decent ground army, and even if I do the stagger with forcefields mid-map that still doesn't buy me enough time. Is this a weakness of the build or just me not macroing well enough (700ish diamond, but pvp is my weakness)? Do you have any replays of holding off an early 4gate? it may be better to go 2gate robo for faster immortals to fight against a good 4gate. that might be the only way to stop a good 4gate. then you get void rays next to counter collossi fast VR's before immortal may be the wrong choice against a good 4gate but i need to play against really good 4gaters a bit more to find out | ||
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