Whenever I see Idra play, it always baffles me that he never uses burrow, yet loves using roaches and infestors. I don't claim to be a great zerg player, because I don't even play zerg. However, from my point of view, Tunneling Claws, and Burrow, are 2 of the most underused abilities in SC2.
I don't have experience in this, however, I DO know how to do basic math. With only burrow, 29 burrowed roaches can regenerate at a rate of 1 roach worth of hp (145) a second. Meaning having injured roaches burrow for 2 seconds approximately pays for burrow. A single roach at 1 hp obviously takes 29 seconds to fully recover.
Now, factoring in tunneling claws, everything cuts in half. a single roach recovers in 15 seconds, and that same group of 29 roaches recovers at 2 roaches a second, and burrow is payed for in 1. That means, to make up the sheer monetary value of the upgrades, upgraded roaches need to burrow for about 3 seconds.
Judging from that, a zerg who uses roaches can retain a defenders advantage, and gain momentum after each attack better then the Protoss's regen, and repairing SCV's.
Then you can factor in the underground movement factor of the roaches. Now, I don't want to go in-depth as to what I see in it's uses, but from what I see, using tunneling claws to bypass defenses carries the same risks as using Dark Templars. Both are mid-game tech, and both depend on whether or not your opponent has detection. As such, such unreliable play is not nessecary to the ability's functions.
finally, It seems like zerg have forgotten the use of burrow in SC1. All explanation required for it, is basically summed up by it's liquipedia page: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Burrow
Of paticular note, I believe it has use in denying expansions (with creep-pooping overlords) and burrowing drones. when I play versus a zerg, I have been in endless situations where I kill a zergs expansion, then the escaping drones. They are still likely to die if they burrow, but not if you burrow before the opponent arrives. (queens can burrow too)
Conclusion: This is a discussion, not a guide. I'm interested to hear why zerg never use these, and perhaps this will clear it up. My inspiration for the thread, came from 2 battles in paticular, where one used burrow, and the other didn't:
Didn't: (watch at 1:00) Did:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m0RuVQ741c&feature=watch_response (watch at 2:10)
These games raised my awareness of the concept, as well as other games where the zerg seem entirely devoid of creativity.
I agree. I see people with 20 hurt roaches and can't comprehend why you wouldn't heal them all for 100/100. Even ignoring any other uses for burrow it seems weird.
I guess the mid-late game crappiness of roaches influences decisions, but it still seems like the wrong one.
I think it is underused, I think we will see more of it in the future as games get longer and 1 base plays and cheesy low macro game are not the popular norm they are today. Idra has a VERY robust strategy and im sure he has his reasons for going one way as opposed to another. I dunno im not idra and I don't pretend to wanna crunch the numbers and theorycraft. But yes in my humble opinion burrowed moving roaches are more threatening and definitely slow the attack from either P or T.
Well, to clarify my opinion of Idra, he doesn't do anything creative so he can go heavy macro. His macro is impeccable, but in large-scale battles, he usually goes with the strategy that requires the least micro, and tunneling roaches don't fit that description.
All those upgrades make you commit to roaches, which are easily hard countered, even if they have 1 ob or raven burrow is instantly useless aswell. (in the way mystic used em)
It's very underused, but it's not Idra's play. I would have been against it until I tried the challenge with the roaches and infestors. Holy crap, roaches regenerate sooooo fast. No need for claws, and many builds already get roach speed. If someone just had a high APM and were a micro player, then it would lead to some great powerful timing attacks! Perfect burrow micro with roaches on a timing attack would be insane.
But Idra isn't a micro player, he likes to just have more units instead of doing a cute timing push. That isn't bad, but it's just not Idra's style. I'd love to see someone else pick it up. Cella? Sen?
If I find myself with 20+ roaches, I always research burrow. There's no reason not to. Unfortunately usually by the time I have that number out, hard counters start to pop up and roaches start to become a liability.
The problem with burrow move is that they graphically change, and so it is immediately obvious once they see a single roach that they need to get detection right now, and that is exactly what they do.
The only time I use it as part of an actual build is when protoss fast expands, and I decide to nydus in, I'll make sure my roaches have burrow, because they will not have detection, at least nothing more than a cannon or two here and there.
Terran is another matter. You just never know when he's going to scan and eat half your roaches. I would get burrow, but then again I'd never go mass roach against terran in the first place because a lot of their units so hard counter them in great numbers it isn't such a hot idea.
I thought this thread was going to be about using burrow for sneaky roaches, which I don't think is very 'solid' because it's easy to counter, like you said. But that second video is really impressive. An observer could mess with it a bit, but it was amazing how few roaches he lost. The amount of upgrades needed is a bit daunting (I think letting roaches move when burrowed baseline would be a nice buff) but I will definitely try and burrow more in battles.
Even with detection, if they are attacking a burrowed roach, they are attacking something that is healing FAST and can probably take an extra hit or two over a normal roach. Remember, the purpose of the roach is to take the damage anyways, it's the tank. That only adds to its tanking ability.
Roaches are really awful past mid game and generally you get upgrades for troops with long term potential. Burrow's not a bad idea but tunneling claws I always seem to want to put into something else. it's not the minerals but the gas I always seem cheap on wanting to spend.
On September 06 2010 04:21 rackdude wrote: Even with detection, if they are attacking a burrowed roach, they are attacking something that is healing FAST and can probably take an extra hit or two over a normal roach. Remember, the purpose of the roach is to take the damage anyways, it's the tank. That only adds to its tanking ability.
Roaches don't really heal fast anymore and are very slow moving when burrowed. So burrowing them mid battle will cause more harm than good. The old roach was both fast and healed well so it was a legit strat.
But then burrow is awesome against drone harasses as well. You got a cloaked banshee incoming and no units/overseer nearby? Just burrow your drones/queen since he won't waste a scan on killing 2 drones. A hellion harass? Same. A muta harass in ZvZ? Just burrow and you're fine. The ultimate harass-blocker is the burrow ability. Even if you lose one of your expansions you can just burrow the drones/queen until the enemy army has died or backed off and then unburrow and set your drones on your other expos. So burrow do have multiple usages (baneling burrows anyone? )
On September 06 2010 04:21 rackdude wrote: Even with detection, if they are attacking a burrowed roach, they are attacking something that is healing FAST and can probably take an extra hit or two over a normal roach. Remember, the purpose of the roach is to take the damage anyways, it's the tank. That only adds to its tanking ability.
Roaches don't really heal fast anymore and are very slow moving when burrowed. So burrowing them mid battle will cause more harm than good. The old roach was both fast and healed well so it was a legit strat.
On September 06 2010 04:21 rackdude wrote: Even with detection, if they are attacking a burrowed roach, they are attacking something that is healing FAST and can probably take an extra hit or two over a normal roach. Remember, the purpose of the roach is to take the damage anyways, it's the tank. That only adds to its tanking ability.
Roaches don't really heal fast anymore and are very slow moving when burrowed. So burrowing them mid battle will cause more harm than good. The old roach was both fast and healed well so it was a legit strat.
It's not imba fast anymore, but it's pretty damn fast.
I think burrow + tunneling claws aren't used too often because terran/toss usually make Rauders/Stalkers, which sort of negates the effectiveness of roaches in general. Micro burrowing them in battle is sort of hard to do, and splash damage might kill them even if you try to save them. On top of that, roaches are looked at as a tanking unit, so if you burrow one in combat, that just means your softer units are going to be focussed down even quicker. Roaches are fairly cheap, too, so I don't think it's necessarily the most important thing in the world to save their little lives at the cost of expensive early game tech -- which leaves you vulnerable to early game timing pushes.
On September 06 2010 04:21 rackdude wrote: Even with detection, if they are attacking a burrowed roach, they are attacking something that is healing FAST and can probably take an extra hit or two over a normal roach. Remember, the purpose of the roach is to take the damage anyways, it's the tank. That only adds to its tanking ability.
Roaches don't really heal fast anymore and are very slow moving when burrowed. So burrowing them mid battle will cause more harm than good. The old roach was both fast and healed well so it was a legit strat.
Protoss didn't have an Observer in either games. That would have made the difference even if Burrow was used. Burrow Drones is something people are trying.
Getting burrow/roach upgrades means you usually commit to roaches, and if you commit to roaches you might as well GG. Burrow is only good once in the game and it usually isn't game changing in ZvT or ZvP. However, I do find burrow roaches effective in ZvZ as detection is usually forgotten by most zerg players.
On September 06 2010 04:21 rackdude wrote: Even with detection, if they are attacking a burrowed roach, they are attacking something that is healing FAST and can probably take an extra hit or two over a normal roach. Remember, the purpose of the roach is to take the damage anyways, it's the tank. That only adds to its tanking ability.
Roaches don't really heal fast anymore and are very slow moving when burrowed. So burrowing them mid battle will cause more harm than good. The old roach was both fast and healed well so it was a legit strat.
Did you watch the second game?
You cannot prove a theory by using an example.
Ya but you said "mid battle will cause more harm than good" will means 100% of the time and that second vid provides an excellent counterexample.
OT I think roaches are very excellent, with claws you allways have the option of retreating without taking fire, So you can always withdraw and consolidate forces. The one problem i see with it, is it can be disastrous if t spams scan when you burrow or a toss army likes to keep an observer with their army
What about having your roach force on two hotkeys, half and half? Come in with both forces, making sure the majority of one half is taking the damage, when they get low, burrow 'em, let the second half do the tanking for a bit, and when they get low, burrow them and raise your other force up, rinse and repeat.
EPT
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