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I'm a 650p random/zerg player rank 10-20, my Protoss friend is a 900p player rank 1-3.
I'm having a really hard time beating my training partner in ZvP. I used to be able to beat him easily until he started using the 4gate build. As of late his main build is 11gate13gate. This denies my expansion.
When I scout his 2gate I usually dont produce zerglings but build a spine crawler and roach warren instead; by pulling away his zealots from the spine crawler with my queen he's usually not able to do any damage and he retreats.
What is the best way to go from here?
I tried teching for hydras but the push around 8~9 min i usually too soon to have enough
I tried 1basing with spine crawlers and a late expand but with no creep to defend the hatch in progress i'm always forced to cancel it
I guess the biggest problem is I really NEED the expansion as a zerg to be able to produce enough units; should i build a quick hatch in my own base?
The thing which bothers me is that I pretty much never see any pro's go 11gate13gate against a zerg which leads me to believe its not only not overpowered, its not even a good option against zerg; im just doing something wrong.
Doesnt change the fact that where we used to have 50% winrate against each other the last 2 weeks or so we've played close to 50-0 in his favor with me trying pretty much every single build i know.
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850 point Diamond Z player
Fast expo (14pool 16 hatch ala Idra?) dies so quickly to 2 gate pressure its not even funny. And competent Ps (in diamond) will scout ur fast expo and chronoboost mass zealots against you.
What I do against P now is the roach opening from liquipedia. If he early gate pressures you, you spawn more zerglings at the 19 and 20 supply mark. the 6 zerglings with your queen should be able to hold off the first 3 zealots, at least until your roaches pop
After that, depending on situation, you either expand, lair tech, or roach all in. I find roach all in before he gets his 4 gate up is extremely viable, and has won me about 75% of my matches outright. Even if it fails, theres a reasonable chance for you to bounce back by expanding.
Also, the zealot build time nerf will help in aptch 1.1 =)
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dont have huge problems with the 2 gate opening. i usually open with a 13 or 14 pool anyways. if i see double gate i just slap down a roach warren and go for the 5RR (expo when roaches pop,search for the thread  )which sometimes ends it outright.
4gate tho is still a problem cause to me it seems very random when and with what unit comp they attack. you have to whore drones at one pont or you will easily fall hugely behind on drones and lose to a stalker/collosus push few mins later..
when i play pvz the expirience is pretty similar. roachswingback + lingspeed can be very dangerous if you lack the cybercore units to hold the roaches. but with the push later you often still just aclick roll over them quite often. doesnt have much to do with the playerskill from my expirience (as ive killed 1100+ Zergs that way and failed 5 games later vs a 750 guy). early zvp is just stupidly random imo.and the masses of 10 minute zvp games on any level of play kinda proof that.
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On September 05 2010 21:46 RTKDeathWish wrote:
850 point Diamond Z player
Fast expo (14pool 16 hatch ala Idra?) dies so quickly to 2 gate pressure its not even funny. And competent Ps (in diamond) will scout ur fast expo and chronoboost mass zealots against you.
What I do against P now is the roach opening from liquipedia. If he early gate pressures you, you spawn more zerglings at the 19 and 20 supply mark. the 6 zerglings with your queen should be able to hold off the first 3 zealots, at least until your roaches pop
After that, depending on situation, you either expand, lair tech, or roach all in. I find roach all in before he gets his 4 gate up is extremely viable, and has won me about 75% of my matches outright. Even if it fails, theres a reasonable chance for you to bounce back by expanding.
Also, the zealot build time nerf will help in aptch 1.1 =)
Are you referring to this build?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/5_Roach_Rush_(vs._Protoss)
Also, the Zealot build time nerf will only help slightly I think, unless it gives a window for a 14hatch 13pool or something allowing you to build spine crawlers before the zealots reach the expo.
edit; whats the most ideal way to alter that build to allow for a spine crawler, defending the initial zealot push with 1 queen and 1 spine crawler is so easy and cheap i'd much rather do that than pump like 8 lings which die so easily to the first 3-4 zelaots.
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I've been doing 2gate -> 4gate a lot, and I practise with a zerg buddy of mine... It started out immensely effective, but atm it's as effective as a chihuahua in a dogfight.
I think he goes something like 14 gas, 14 pool. instant speed, hold off against my zealots with only lings. he hides a drone down at his expo when he sees the zealots coming, and the second they get trapped or retreats, he throws up the expo. Right afterwards comes the roach warren and pumping drones.
When my 4gate comes he has no problems defending with speedlings and roaches and 1 spine crawler... he just holds out and can survive untill roach speed kicks in, and then he counterattacks and breaks the contain if he thinks he can (and he usually can).
I'm 1k diamond protoss, he'd be the same if he'd played a bit more.
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On September 05 2010 22:05 magha wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 21:46 RTKDeathWish wrote:
850 point Diamond Z player
Fast expo (14pool 16 hatch ala Idra?) dies so quickly to 2 gate pressure its not even funny. And competent Ps (in diamond) will scout ur fast expo and chronoboost mass zealots against you.
What I do against P now is the roach opening from liquipedia. If he early gate pressures you, you spawn more zerglings at the 19 and 20 supply mark. the 6 zerglings with your queen should be able to hold off the first 3 zealots, at least until your roaches pop
After that, depending on situation, you either expand, lair tech, or roach all in. I find roach all in before he gets his 4 gate up is extremely viable, and has won me about 75% of my matches outright. Even if it fails, theres a reasonable chance for you to bounce back by expanding.
Also, the zealot build time nerf will help in aptch 1.1 =) Are you referring to this build? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/5_Roach_Rush_(vs._Protoss)Also, the Zealot build time nerf will only help slightly I think, unless it gives a window for a 14hatch 13pool or something allowing you to build spine crawlers before the zealots reach the expo. edit; whats the most ideal way to alter that build to allow for a spine crawler, defending the initial zealot push with 1 queen and 1 spine crawler is so easy and cheap i'd much rather do that than pump like 8 lings which die so easily to the first 3-4 zelaots.
found on most maps i can stall enough with just 4-6lings + queen. most P are hesitant to move deep into the Z base with low zeal numbers since getting surrounded and losing the zeals hurts alot.
if you want a spine crawler in just cut 1-2 drones /lings or gas etc after the pool is finished.gives you a slightly worse position but youre safe.
On September 05 2010 22:14 asmo.0 wrote:
I've been doing 2gate -> 4gate a lot, and I practise with a zerg buddy of mine... It started out immensely effective, but atm it's as effective as a chihuahua in a dogfight.
I think he goes something like 14 gas, 14 pool. instant speed, hold off against my zealots with only lings. he hides a drone down at his expo when he sees the zealots coming, and the second they get trapped or retreats, he throws up the expo. Right afterwards comes the roach warren and pumping drones.
When my 4gate comes he has no problems defending with speedlings and roaches and 1 spine crawler... he just holds out and can survive untill roach speed kicks in, and then he counterattacks and breaks the contain if he thinks he can (and he usually can).
I'm 1k diamond protoss, he'd be the same if he'd played a bit more.
can you provide 1-2 reps? would like to see how he defs with pure ling without getting way behind on drones. also couldnt you just block his ramp with zeals and contain him that way? no way to expo then in any reasonable time. and afaik there is nothing like the drone drill to break a ramp in sc2.
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give this a try (im about 1100):
after you hold off the 2 gate expand asap, your first 100 gas goes to ling speed, then put down an evo, second 100 gas to +1 meele, pull guys off gas, pump drone untill you see/feel warpgates are about to finish then pump lings nonstop, with 2 crawler backing them up at natural
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On September 05 2010 22:23 Geo.Rion wrote:
give this a try (im about 1100):
after you hold off the 2 gate expand asap, your first 100 gas goes to ling speed, then put down an evo, second 100 gas to +1 meele, pull guys off gas, pump drone untill you see/feel warpgates are about to finish then pump lings nonstop, with 2 crawler backing them up at natural
isnt that pretty risky?
what do you do if he goes for +1 aswell? or 4gates with pure zeal/sentry?
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On September 05 2010 22:14 asmo.0 wrote:
I've been doing 2gate -> 4gate a lot, and I practise with a zerg buddy of mine... It started out immensely effective, but atm it's as effective as a chihuahua in a dogfight.
I think he goes something like 14 gas, 14 pool. instant speed, hold off against my zealots with only lings. he hides a drone down at his expo when he sees the zealots coming, and the second they get trapped or retreats, he throws up the expo. Right afterwards comes the roach warren and pumping drones.
When my 4gate comes he has no problems defending with speedlings and roaches and 1 spine crawler... he just holds out and can survive untill roach speed kicks in, and then he counterattacks and breaks the contain if he thinks he can (and he usually can).
I'm 1k diamond protoss, he'd be the same if he'd played a bit more.
I'd love to see some replays. I asked my friend (the 900 protoss) for some replays of which he played his 2gate well and still loses to a zerg, but so far, in 2 weeks, and hundreds of games on the ladder, he hasnt lost a single one yet.
I'll see if I can post a replay of me, but so far I have tried like 20 different builds so in order to get a proper replay I should optimise one build first in order to not make a complete ass of myself.
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Imo going roach is not the best idea vs late 2 Gates (11-13 that is) as he can easily transition to stalkers and deny your expo for a very long time. I go 14 Gas 14 Pool instead, build a spinecrawler and pump drones and only few lings until my speed is done. Speedlings do quite well against small zealot numbers and you are safe from Stalkers, too.
If he has only few zealots in your base, you can just ingore them and run into his base, chances are high that his ramp is not blocked at this time.
The only downside to this build is, if he blocks your ramp with zealots you might need to go roach anyway or baneling. But this never happend to me yet, and i've been using this build for quite a long time now.
Expand as soon as his Zealots are dead and keep on pumping lings if he keeps on building zealots. Try to take out stray zealots with your lings. You willl be able to catch up in worker count as soon as your spinecrawlers are up. Transition to hydra if hes going 4 Gate or build a spire if he expands.
I'm 900 diamond and I can provide replays if needed. Idra also did this on Scrap Station some time ago, don't remember wich game tho.
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On September 05 2010 22:31 evilm0nkey wrote:
Imo going roach is not the best idea vs late 2 Gates (11-13 that is) as he can easily transition to stalkers and deny your expo for a very long time. I go 14 Gas 14 Pool instead, build a spinecrawler and pump drones and only few lings until my speed is done. Speedlings do quite well against small zealot numbers and you are safe from Stalkers, too.
If he has only few zealots in your base, you can just ingore them and run into his base, chances are high that his ramp is not blocked at this time.
The only downside to this build is, if he blocks your ramp with zealots you might need to go roach anyway or baneling. But this never happend to me yet, and i've been using this build for quite a long time now.
Expand as soon as his Zealots are dead and keep on pumping lings if he keeps on building zealots. Try to take out stray zealots with your lings. You willl be able to catch up in worker count as soon as your spinecrawlers are up. Transition to hydra if hes going 4 Gate or build a spire if he expands.
I'm 900 diamond and I can provide replays if needed. Idra also did this on Scrap Station some time ago, don't remember wich game tho.
Scrap Station is somewhat favored to Zerg I think.
I'd love to see replays where you beat a (good!) Protoss player who does 2gate into 4gate, or just a normal 4gate (I guess in that case its safer to expand quickly).
Just in general my BO is a mess, mainly because I tried so many different ones, I just dont have a clue when to tech, when to expand, when to produce a second queen, etc.
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On September 05 2010 22:26 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 22:23 Geo.Rion wrote:
give this a try (im about 1100):
after you hold off the 2 gate expand asap, your first 100 gas goes to ling speed, then put down an evo, second 100 gas to +1 meele, pull guys off gas, pump drone untill you see/feel warpgates are about to finish then pump lings nonstop, with 2 crawler backing them up at natural isnt that pretty risky? what do you do if he goes for +1 aswell? or 4gates with pure zeal/sentry?
obiously, you scout, if he goes +1 then dont, but 2 gate into 4gate+forge? is that really a build?
Pure sentry+zealot? It should beat it, it's up to micro, i usually beat zel-sentry heavy armies, but unless you reveal your strategy he wont go for pure zeal-sentry, mayeb not even then
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On September 05 2010 22:49 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 22:26 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On September 05 2010 22:23 Geo.Rion wrote:
give this a try (im about 1100):
after you hold off the 2 gate expand asap, your first 100 gas goes to ling speed, then put down an evo, second 100 gas to +1 meele, pull guys off gas, pump drone untill you see/feel warpgates are about to finish then pump lings nonstop, with 2 crawler backing them up at natural isnt that pretty risky? what do you do if he goes for +1 aswell? or 4gates with pure zeal/sentry? obiously, you scout, if he goes +1 then dont, but 2 gate into 4gate+forge? is that really a build? Pure sentry+zealot? It should beat it, it's up to micro, i usually beat zel-sentry heavy armies, but unless you reveal your strategy he wont go for pure zeal-sentry, mayeb not even then
many do pure zeal/sentry pushes even without scouting much lings.forcefields can still fkk roaches. dont see how you can beat that with pure lings if the P uses FF half decent. 150/100 for a zeal+sentry also means numbers are usually quite high.
and ya had people slap down core+ forge vs me when they saw lotsa lings. push comes abit later but your lings die like flies and boosting the +1 makes it kinda fast.
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On September 05 2010 23:36 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 22:49 Geo.Rion wrote:On September 05 2010 22:26 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On September 05 2010 22:23 Geo.Rion wrote:
give this a try (im about 1100):
after you hold off the 2 gate expand asap, your first 100 gas goes to ling speed, then put down an evo, second 100 gas to +1 meele, pull guys off gas, pump drone untill you see/feel warpgates are about to finish then pump lings nonstop, with 2 crawler backing them up at natural isnt that pretty risky? what do you do if he goes for +1 aswell? or 4gates with pure zeal/sentry? obiously, you scout, if he goes +1 then dont, but 2 gate into 4gate+forge? is that really a build? Pure sentry+zealot? It should beat it, it's up to micro, i usually beat zel-sentry heavy armies, but unless you reveal your strategy he wont go for pure zeal-sentry, mayeb not even then many do pure zeal/sentry pushes even without scouting much lings.forcefields can still fkk roaches. dont see how you can beat that with pure lings if the P uses FF half decent. 150/100 for a zeal+sentry also means numbers are usually quite high. and ya had people slap down core+ forge vs me when they saw lotsa lings. push comes abit later but your lings die like flies and boosting the +1 makes it kinda fast.
ok, i ll trow in some reps, only thing is that i didnt really play protoss recently (the whole ladder is terran), or when i did they did some sort of early canon/zealot cheese or exped (1). The important thing is to use your lings well, try to force him waste FFs, engage finally close to your 2-3 crawlers back out if he almost completly surrounds hismelf with FF, and let the crawlers do the dmg
also they shouldnt see lots of lings 1) because you start producing them after you pumped drones 2.) you shouldnt allow any probe ven close to your nat when you got speedlings, 3-4 take any scout out easily
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just go for normal expansion and put your lings in front of his base to feign a runby to buy time - the zealots will have to micro around to defend this. if he closes in, call your 2 queens to your expansion to help defend the zealots, there is no need for roaches, unless he goes for a relatively fast forge +1 attack.
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On September 05 2010 22:05 magha wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 21:46 RTKDeathWish wrote:
850 point Diamond Z player
Fast expo (14pool 16 hatch ala Idra?) dies so quickly to 2 gate pressure its not even funny. And competent Ps (in diamond) will scout ur fast expo and chronoboost mass zealots against you.
What I do against P now is the roach opening from liquipedia. If he early gate pressures you, you spawn more zerglings at the 19 and 20 supply mark. the 6 zerglings with your queen should be able to hold off the first 3 zealots, at least until your roaches pop
After that, depending on situation, you either expand, lair tech, or roach all in. I find roach all in before he gets his 4 gate up is extremely viable, and has won me about 75% of my matches outright. Even if it fails, theres a reasonable chance for you to bounce back by expanding.
Also, the zealot build time nerf will help in aptch 1.1 =) Are you referring to this build? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/5_Roach_Rush_(vs._Protoss)Also, the Zealot build time nerf will only help slightly I think, unless it gives a window for a 14hatch 13pool or something allowing you to build spine crawlers before the zealots reach the expo. edit; whats the most ideal way to alter that build to allow for a spine crawler, defending the initial zealot push with 1 queen and 1 spine crawler is so easy and cheap i'd much rather do that than pump like 8 lings which die so easily to the first 3-4 zelaots.
Okay I tried some games with an altered 5 roach rush build (including a spine crawler and 6 roaches instead of 5).
By the time I reached his base with my 5 roaches (and one on the way) he had 4 zealots (when he saw my spine crawler he didnt even try and engage, I guess if a protoss does and loses a zealot or 2 you're in extremely good shape for your own push) and a stalker, and I had an expand in progress. Because of some miss micro and macro I lost a lot of units and forgot to research speed which led to me being owned by the stalkers.
However, I really think if I practice more with this build it's a very good counter vs the "2 gate rush into 4warpgate push".
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On September 05 2010 22:36 magha wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 22:31 evilm0nkey wrote:
Imo going roach is not the best idea vs late 2 Gates (11-13 that is) as he can easily transition to stalkers and deny your expo for a very long time. I go 14 Gas 14 Pool instead, build a spinecrawler and pump drones and only few lings until my speed is done. Speedlings do quite well against small zealot numbers and you are safe from Stalkers, too.
If he has only few zealots in your base, you can just ingore them and run into his base, chances are high that his ramp is not blocked at this time.
The only downside to this build is, if he blocks your ramp with zealots you might need to go roach anyway or baneling. But this never happend to me yet, and i've been using this build for quite a long time now.
Expand as soon as his Zealots are dead and keep on pumping lings if he keeps on building zealots. Try to take out stray zealots with your lings. You willl be able to catch up in worker count as soon as your spinecrawlers are up. Transition to hydra if hes going 4 Gate or build a spire if he expands.
I'm 900 diamond and I can provide replays if needed. Idra also did this on Scrap Station some time ago, don't remember wich game tho.
Scrap Station is somewhat favored to Zerg I think. I'd love to see replays where you beat a (good!) Protoss player who does 2gate into 4gate, or just a normal 4gate (I guess in that case its safer to expand quickly). Just in general my BO is a mess, mainly because I tried so many different ones, I just dont have a clue when to tech, when to expand, when to produce a second queen, etc.
In theory a 2 Gate into 4 Gate transition should be easier to defend as a real 4 Gate as P's eco is quite weaker / the push is later. The difficulty in 2 Gate is rather getting your expansion up in time without falling to much behind in economy.
Defending a real 4 Gate is really easy whith the right build, but if done wrong its freakin hard.
Unfortunately i don't keep my 4 Gate replays as it happens all the time and it's just boring :D
Anyway I will try to sketch my build vs 4 Gate without early agression (P does chronoboost on eco, late first Gate, builds just one Zealot + Stalker + sentry before getting his 4 Warpgates).
15 Pool
16 Hatch
then 1 Gas
@100 Gas Speed
next 100 Gas Lair
@ 50% Lair get second gas.
You can also delay your Lair / hydras a little by removing workers from gas after speed for a minute or so, if you think he is coming really early (lots of chronoboosts on his warpgate, really easy to scout ) . This will give you more minerals for spines.
As soon as your nat is done, plant 2 Spines, keep pumping drones, dont build more than 10 lings before he moves out. Scouting is really important here, always have a ling in front of his ramp to know when he moves out.
If he moves out before your den is done, you need 4 Spinecrawlers. If your hydras are done in time, 2 should be enough. Obviously pump lings only when you see he's coming.. Your first lings should be hidden outside of your base (to have a nice surround or backstab), reinforced lings should be near your ramp, else he will just walk into your main and thats gg.
Having enough supply in that moment is really critical. I dont know how many times i lost to 4 Gate because i forgot to build some overlords in time.
After you defended, check if he expands (you should have an ovi at his nat). If he does, pump 10 Hydras, reinforce with speedlings and kill his expo, no problem. Just dont wait until he has Collossi. If he doesnt expand, he might go for 1 base collossus, you should check that immedieatly with an overseer. If you see a robo, stop hydra production and get roaches and / or Corruptors.
This basically works against all kinds of 4 Gate variations and 3 Gate + Immortal, you just need to adapt by building more lings if you see early zealots coming or even get your pool earlier if you see a 10 Gate.
Here is a replay vs a 1000 Points Protoss from yesterday doing very agressive 2 Gate who didn't know when to stop:
[url blocked]
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EPT
