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Zerg can't wall off, nor is there any advantage to high ground or chokes, and it's really annoying the piss out of me. Both terran and protoss can wall off, which gives a small force of units the ability to fend off a much larger force. This is useful because terran/protoss can then tech to higher tier units very easily and freely. Zerg can not.
The reason zerg can't do this is because we need an army of equal size (or often greater) to that which might attack us. So instead of being able to build just a few attack units, then use the home-ground advantage to defend against larger attacks, we simply have to have a superior army at all times.
What I'm having problems understanding is how to balance between economy/army early game, when I have no guaranteed safety in my own base. I find myself forced to spend resources on an early army, leaving me behind in tech and economy. It might be different if I could actually use my army, but unfortunately roaches/zerglings just aren't very useful fighting on a walled off ramp.
So early game resources spent on army usually turn out to be a waste, leaving me behind in economy/tech, but focusing heavily on economy/tech leaves me super vulnerable to all forms of harassment -- harassment which I am unable to reciprocate back to terran/toss without throwing away my economy/tech.
Is this an imbalance in the game, or am I missing something?
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Well first of all, scout. leave a single zergling just outside his ramp so you can see when he attacks. Sacrifice overlord to see what he's doing. etc etc.
There is tons of stuff you can do.
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Scout and watch what you opponent is doing?
From that depends you make workers or fighting units.
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as zerg, you have to scout. Figure out some basic builds from your opponent, notice whether they imply early aggression or teching up, and adjust accordingly. Poke up his ramp every now and then to keep tabs on his army count. On larger maps, you can usually get away with keeping a small "ready" force, with the ability to rapidly reinforce your army when your opponent is about to push out (for example, when the 4 warpgates of a 1-base protoss finish, when the first tanks or medivacs of a terran pop out etc.). Untill then, power drones, saturate both your bases and tech up.
The toughest part a zerg has to figure out is when he can get away with powering drones, and when he needs to add units in order to survive. You basically NEED tier 2 in order to do some form of harassment (be that muta's, drops, nydus or tunneling roaches) against a solid wall, so you need to get there as fast as possible while staying alive and economically competitive.
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But yeah, it's a imbalance. With zerg, you can't scout without losing a bit of your economy.
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On September 01 2010 19:41 curv3 wrote:
But yeah, it's a imbalance. With zerg, you can't scout without losing a bit of your economy.
Mmm what about with terran? Scan = no mule, plus you need to target pretty well because it's only one every 50 seconds. Toss requires robo bay+obs or hallucinate. Just because it's different doesn't mean it's imbalanced.
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Umm do i have any suggestions....
Look there's like a zillion things terran can open with and it would take too long to list them all.
Right now the thing i'm having the most trouble with is thor pushes with scv's. Zerglings and roaches just don't have the DPS to take them out. banelings might be the answer. just to clear out the scv's.
You do need to scout, poke up w/ zerglings like people have suggested. And send overlords in from the sides. You won't be able to tell exactly what is coming but you basically know bio or mech.
2-3 rax and a large bio army = bio. 1rax and a few marines, factory, or starport = mech or air play.
I suggest getting very good recon in the middle of the map, with zerglings at towers and overlords on cliffs. Often when people send an army it travels in single file and is easier to get a ling surround on. You can also use zerglings to pick off units that are trailing behind.
bio = more zergling baneling for you. This loses to thor, tank, but tank is so immobile you can get roaches out. Vs thor good luck. Vs air just get mutas. I'm not kidding. Hydras are bad vs terran air, because vikings will snipe all your overseers. Although if you're talented get hydra/infestor and fungal the banshees. sorry i'm getting off topic cuz this is early game.
Also just a small note, never ever ever try to push a planetary fortress without banelings (or maybe infestors) to kill the scv's. Nothing else will work, (ok well ultras will) as all your units will auto target the PF. I have lost games this way. (Yeah all you jerks going 'OH mech is immobile, just hit his 3rd when he moves out...'
One more note... you're going to have to defeat about 5 terran pushes before you can counter and win, so enjoy.
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If he walls up and techs, why wouldn't you be able to tech as well?
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Because if he walls up and doesn't tech, you lost.
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On September 02 2010 06:14 Amprophet wrote:
Because if he walls up and doesn't tech, you lost.
Hence why you scout. But my point in my previous post was that if he's teching there's no reason why you can't tech as well.
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I think the complaint here is the lack of early game scouting options for zerg. The only way to keep the drone alive after the first marine is to gas steal. Even then it will go pretty soon. Your only option is to pick a timing to suicide an overlord and hope you targeted a good area of his base.
For an example of when this fails, see Morrow vs. Idra final game IEM.
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I don't know, it goes both ways. I don't wall off against Terran or Protoss players, you don't need to. I only wall off against Zerg and I feel like I more or less have no other choice but to wall off. Zergling runbyes are just too deadly to not wall against. Walling off is a disadvantage against Protoss or Terran, it just exposes your buildings to sniping by ranged units/air.
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If you dont feel safe open with something like 14 extractor, 13 pool and get ling speed as fast as you can. As long as you scout pushes by leaving lings outside of the opponents base you should be fine. Practice against protos and find when you need to get more units.
For example when i 14 pool/16 hatch I like to have around 10 lings for scouting and poking up the ramp, expecting a 4gate or a 2/3 gate robo. Around 40 food I hammer lings, getting around 40, or if timing permits my hydra den will have finished, play defensively with a spine crawler at the natural.
Zerg is defiantly a harder race to play as your first, easy mistake I made 
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Canada1123 Posts
All that you have said is true, however there are a couple ways to mitigate/get around it.
1) Scouting. You need to know the opponent's builds as well as they do and know when to sac overlords as a consequence.
Here are a few key points.
- Protoss:
2 gate or gate => cyber or forge ? These buildings form the wall more often than not so you can scout them.
If 2 gate, fend off then scout shortly after.
If cyber, sacrifice overlord earlier to see if it is a 4 gate, a robo or a stargate.
If forge, make sure you scout cannon rushes and keep his expand scouted, if it doesn't go down sacrifice overlord (either way you can tech a little when you see a forge so get closer to countering void rays).
- Terran:
Initial barracks tech lab?
YES => Overlords can be placed to see reapers early. Sacrifice overlord a little later to check for 3-5 raxes or expand or factory/starport. Any lack of early harass means get to lair and expand, you will either need speed banelings or anti banshee (as it is most likely a marine/tank, marine marauder or banshee push).
Initial barracks reactor?
YES => Either marines, marine/marauder or hellions. Tough to scout further because there are definitely marines to kill overlords, maybe try to sacrifice one in the back. On the upside, speedlings/banelings take care of all those pushes to just make sure to have enough lings, a baneling nest up and some scouting on their front door.
Initial barracks naked?
YES => almost invariably some form of tech build, siege tank, pre igniter, banshees, thor ship etc. get expand, mutas and a baneling nest (and always some lings). From there wing it, baneling bust him if you can (if he got too tech happy or just lost a drop force) otherwise go mutas.
Now you will have noticed that all this involves good scouting, good knowledge of timings (I really can't explain it better than "when he should have X") etc. Which brings us to option 2.
2) The 5RR. I started using it, I now swear by it, especially against toss but it isn't bad against Terran.
Here is the link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145740
Here is the break down:
-Protoss
2 gate => beat it up, run him over.
going for 4 gate and is too zealot happy => run him over.
going void rays => you guessed it, run him over.
Which leaves a defensive 4 gate build which is stalker and sentry heavy. Poke quickly with your 5 roaches while making lings (your expand hatch is going up at this point). If he doesn't want to follow, fine, get a lair, deny scouting (remember an overseer+queens for observers) and let him build immortals or lots of stalkers for your 5 roaches. You have map control, better scouting and an expand. This is not an auto win but it avoids a fair few problems, mostly remember to check periodically whether he is massing an army and get lings/other troops accordingly.
-Terran
Any kind of tech build gets run over unless he goes very defensive (bunker, a ton of marines, marauders or a tank). If you haven't killed him, you are ahead in expands, he can't really afford to push and you have decent scouting options. The opponent always has to assume you have roaches because you could have them somewhere he didn't scan or you could just make 10-15 immediately off your 2-3 bases. This means marauders and tanks so go mutas.
Early reapers/hellions. You can probably just run the hellions over because they are so bad against roaches in low numbers, reapers you need to defend against, it is a problem as always but roaches+speedlings are the best solution.
Early tons of marines. If he has so many that early get a baneling nest, scout regularly while making lings/banelings and teching a little (for baneling speed/overlord speed). When he pushes out with his ton of marines attack with the lings in the back and banelings in the front. Remember to say ROLLY POLLY PARTY ! in chat.
Early marauders. This is a problem, you need to make a bunch of lings fast, scout, pray ... At least you know what he has (multiple barracks). Put down some spine crawlers if necessary, try to deny him expands and get to muta/baneling.
I hope this was helpful.
PS: Obligatory Saracen wink: 700 Diamond, take it for what it's worth.
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You need to always scout his ramp and look at his army composition and unit count always and from this you decide whether you can drone or must build more units
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OP, remember that Zerg has a serious advantage that the other races do not have. Yes, we cannot wall off to safely tech. What we can do, however, is spawn a small army almost instantly. You do not need to maintain an army equal to theirs at all times. You drone hard for as long as you can, and then you crank out an army/defenses at the last possible minute. Zerg is all about reactive flying by the seat of your pants, and that's what makes it so fun.
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i find that alot of zerg are having major troubles not because they suck, but because they arnt be active with thier units. keep a ling outside his choke, another hidden behind his min line, keep one at each tower. poke at his wall.
also zerg are having problems with scouting because they cant see the buildings the opponant has. but you dont need to see them. after playing enough you will know when you see his army if hes teching and can usually just ASSUME his tech. based on the map and what hes doing etc.
also listen to mindspider. above me. ive argued with lots of people on team liquid about this. you dont need to make units to keep up with the enemy. you need to make drones and spawn larvea and watch his army so you know when he moves out. when he moves out spawn your units morph your bane etc.
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On September 02 2010 06:41 JTouche wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 06:14 Amprophet wrote:
Because if he walls up and doesn't tech, you lost. Hence why you scout. But my point in my previous post was that if he's teching there's no reason why you can't tech as well.
You cant scout after they wall off though. Anybody decent has 3 marines to kill overlords. Also, if you are just starting to build units as they move out then you have lost. This isn't BW, and spines take significantly longer then sunkens...
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You can always simply wall off with a couple of spine crawlers.
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On September 02 2010 09:44 Sixes wrote:
Remember to say ROLLY POLLY PARTY! in chat.
#1 - great post
#2 - I now know what free-name switch is getting used for bwhahaha
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EPT
