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Innovation, don't you know that every terran player will drop everything they're doing once they scan a lair and throw up 20 turrets and install a hack to put valkeryies in the game?
Not seeing a spire is a dead giveaway there is a spire.
I do get the sarcasm here but this reminds me of a point most people forget. Whether this results in killing the terran or not the main point is that it forces terran to become reactive, spend lots of apm/mins on defense all the while it allows zerg to get up safe expantion or 2 and move up the tech tree. Zerg is all about surviving long enough to take an economic/macro advantage. Most good terrans will not loose outright but you've done enough to move to the midgame/lategame without being significantly behind. Just keep transitioning/macroing/spreading creep from there and between map control etc... you're usually good. Most terrans are not used to transitioning into late game vs zerg and fall behind.
Edit
Please keep in mind this only one option of several of dealing with reaper pushes. Someone mentioned this is only usefull against one build. True, but when you can expect this build from 8/10 terrans ATM its usefull against the current trend of terran play. Overall safe 14 gas 14 pool or variation of such combined with early creep expantion will allow you to make many choices based upon what terran is doing. Zerg is reactive, if you're good at reacting/scouting tech you can do well.
You're going to have enough information before you choose tech to make smart decisions as to whether 1 base tech or 21 expo is the way to go for example. The definitive title of "This is how you beat mass reaper" I don't agree with. Perhaps this is ONE way of beating mass reaper. It all depends on the context of each game.
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On August 24 2010 06:19 Floophead_III wrote:
The problem with this build is that it doesn't work against anything else. Any opening that's not 5 rax reaper is going to decimate you.
You guys don't get it. You have to come up with a build that stems from a standard opening which can be flexible enough to account for any opening.
You can't expect everyone to 1 base roach/muta every game. It's a horrible cheese opening.
This is the most important post in this thread imo. The problem isn't just "how do I defend 5rax reaper?" it's how do you defend it without leaving yourself open to everything else. A 1 base play theoretically sounds ok, but with the way you pull it off I'd want to see replays show it workings vs other stuff. How do you transition if he's going hellion/marauder early push or marine/tank? Stuff like that.
IEM spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +The last game of the finals is the most important. I don't really feel the need worry a whole ton on how to counter 5 rax reaper, but what I do worry about is how can I actually have a build that's safe to variety. In the IEM finals we see how Idra is completely unable to handle the variety when his scouting is denied or only shows partial information. That's the kind of strategy issue I'd like an answer for, not so much the Terran flavor of the week.
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Turpin, just admit you actually don't play the game and you just make shit up.
Im at work at the moment so I cant actually check the times, but I seriously doubt that mutas would come when theres 6-8 reapers on the field (were talking about a 5-rax here, I dont see how its humanly possible that the guy would have a good bunch of mutas while the T has 6-8 reapers - note how the OP talked about getting 6-8 mutas)
Hey guess what! I'm at home, watched the replays, have had people try this against me many times in the past few days, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that my timings are right and yours are wrong. It's amazing what you can figure out if you actually play the game and watch the replays!
DIMAGA vs Lucifron from the IEM - DIMAGA goes quick lair to nydus
IdrA vs Tarson(?) from the IEM - IdrA gets roach speed first thing at lair and rolls his opponent
DIAMAGA vs Protoss opponent from the IEM - hydras, not muta
Three high level replays off the top of my head from the IEM, proving that people don't go strictly muta when they get to lair.
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On August 24 2010 06:20 TurpinOS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 06:06 Fistdantilus wrote:On August 24 2010 05:54 TurpinOS wrote:
As soon as the T player sees the Lair, he will just stop the reaper production, start massing marines and get stim (easy with 5 rax + tech labs), expand and out-macro you.
I dont see how this build is an effective counter since
1. you are stucked to 1 base while he has 2
2. he still has around 10-12 reapers on the map, as soon as your mutas leave your main, you have NOTHING to defend against them (10-12 reapers will tear out in a second 3 roaches + crawler, and without lings with speed you can say goodbye to your main)
Very all-inish, only way I see this working is if the T has no idea about the incoming mutas (and still, if your mutas go for his base its a trade-off)
Edit : with so few defense, scouting will be so easy by the reapers, and its pretty obvious that one base lair = mutas. Ghosts are also one building away at this point for the terran So... what's it like, theorycrafting 2x more than playing? Fun? I'm just curious, because you're way off on everything here. Not to mention presuming the exact opposite that was explicitly shown in the replays. These are high diamond players, and they just rolled over. If it's so obvious mutas are coming, why do people that are far better than you clearly screw this up? And they are going FIVE RAX reaper, and yet they don't have anywhere near the 10-12 reapers you claim is possible by this time. They have at most 6-8, which won't do hardly anything against 3 roaches, plus queen, plus muta. 3 reapers is normal around the 6 minute point, where Bitter has 3 roaches plus queen. 6-8 reapers is normal around minute 8, when the muta come. As stated, these are NOT high diamond players, they are diamond players sure, but pretty terrible. Again, any decent terran will SCOUT, scouting a 1 base lair + 2 gas (IDC if he hides spire and shows roach warren), for me is a big red dot saying, stop the reapers, put up some bunkers, put up some turrets, start making ghost/marines and expo ---- just outmacro the Z that spent everything on 1-base mutas (aka, exactly the opposite of what the other players in this game do, they see the lair and still keep pumping reapers). Im at work at the moment so I cant actually check the times, but I seriously doubt that mutas would come when theres 6-8 reapers on the field (were talking about a 5-rax here, I dont see how its humanly possible that the guy would have a good bunch of mutas while the T has 6-8 reapers - note how the OP talked about getting 6-8 mutas) Even if thats the case, 6-8 reapers will murder non-speed roaches + queen (with no lings) WHEN MUTAS ARE OUT TO HARASS. So now, im guessing that you suggest keeping mutas in base to defend ? Seems like a viable strat right, 1base defensive mutas ? Finally, assuming that my skill level is low doesnt make your argument stronger, just a little tip. Also, usually, actual good players wont go for 5 rax if they see that the zerg is NOT expanding, theyll just stick with 3, expand and put up some def.
You proved my point your just theory crafting and haven't watched the replay. The whole thing is the Zerg SCOUTED 3 raxe's with tech labs expected 2 more to get thrown down so threw down a roach warren and fast tech ed to mutas its simple terran can't tech change as fast as a zerg. yes the OP at one point killed the 7 reapers right as his mutas popped and he got 3 roaches every game which was enough to defend the 3 reapers that come early.
Sure not 7 but thats when the mutas come into play i really hate how people see a build and go "oh well i can just do this and that won't work" sure terrans if you knew mutas were coming then you could throw up 20 turrents but then that would mean your non investing money into reapers. Its not that hard to understand this is the same as 1 base speedling, roach into a 25 supply hatch except your getting mutas instead of roach speedling.
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On August 24 2010 05:54 TurpinOS wrote:
As soon as the T player sees the Lair, he will just stop the reaper production, start massing marines and get stim (easy with 5 rax + tech labs), expand and out-macro you.
I dont see how this build is an effective counter since
1. you are stucked to 1 base while he has 2
2. he still has around 10-12 reapers on the map, as soon as your mutas leave your main, you have NOTHING to defend against them (10-12 reapers will tear out in a second 3 roaches + crawler, and without lings with speed you can say goodbye to your main)
Very all-inish, only way I see this working is if the T has no idea about the incoming mutas (and still, if your mutas go for his base its a trade-off)
Edit : with so few defense, scouting will be so easy by the reapers, and its pretty obvious that one base lair = mutas. Ghosts are also one building away at this point for the terran
Actually you have 3 roaches to defend your base and a queen which is plenty to hold off till you get more roaches or w.e you need. You do realize there are like 5 things that lair brings other than mutas? Oh maybe roach speed? oh Maybe hydras? oh maybe infestors to stop the roaches? Quick Nydus for whoever knows the reason? Maybe roach burrow? Maybe Baneling Speed? - If everytime you see lair you think mutas i feel sorry for you
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On August 24 2010 06:31 Fistdantilus wrote:Turpin, just admit you actually don't play the game and you just make shit up. Show nested quote +Im at work at the moment so I cant actually check the times, but I seriously doubt that mutas would come when theres 6-8 reapers on the field (were talking about a 5-rax here, I dont see how its humanly possible that the guy would have a good bunch of mutas while the T has 6-8 reapers - note how the OP talked about getting 6-8 mutas) Hey guess what! I'm at home, watched the replays, have had people try this against me many times in the past few days, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that my timings are right and yours are wrong. It's amazing what you can figure out if you actually play the game and watch the replays! DIMAGA vs Lucifron from the IEM - DIMAGA goes quick lair to nydus IdrA vs Tarson(?) from the IEM - IdrA gets roach speed first thing at lair and rolls his opponent DIAMAGA vs Protoss opponent from the IEM - hydras, not muta Three high level replays off the top of my head from the IEM, proving that people don't go strictly muta when they get to lair.
800 diamond player, but sure, I probably dont play the game, and you are obviously of a way higher skill level then Idra and Dimaga who tried oh so hard to figure out a way to beat this build and only managed with speed roaches.
Again, I never stated that LAIR = MUTA, I stated that 1 base lair = PROBABLY MUTA SO I WILL MACRO UP AND DEFEND AND STOP THE REAPERS
Get it ? You are now stucked on 1 base, with a LOT of ressources put in those mutas and roach, while Im happily macroing.
Obviously your build works if the Terran just stays on 1 base and keeps pumping reapers.
Edit : Thought I should explain something, when I said 1 base lair with 2 gas makes me expect Mutas, it doesnt mean that ''he will obviously make mutas its his only option''. It obviously means that I will PREPARE for it.
My whole point resumed : I am not saying this build sucks, all I am saying is that I dont think its an effective counter to the 5-rax reaper in the sense that the Z is stucked on 1 base for a LONG period of time, which is exactly what you DONT want as a Zerg. Being stucked on 1 base as a Z is not INSTA-LOSE either, its just a disadvantage, and the whole point of the 5-rax reaper is to do just that, prevent the zerg from macroing, not end the game right now (see the whole IEM finals)
For example, Tester used to rush pylons in front of the Zergs base in order to prevent the zerg from expanding for a VERY long time, sure there was a lot of 1-base things to do in order to counter that, but the main point was that you were still stucked on 1-base which is a BIG win for anyone playing vs Zerg.
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On August 24 2010 06:39 TurpinOS wrote:
Again, I never stated that LAIR = MUTA, I stated that 1 base lair = PROBABLY MUTA SO I WILL MACRO UP AND DEFEND AND STOP THE REAPERS
Interesting. Because on the very last page:
Edit : with so few defense, scouting will be so easy by the reapers, and its pretty obvious that one base lair = mutas. Ghosts are also one building away at this point for the terran
Huh.
I'm done with you.
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On August 24 2010 06:43 Fistdantilus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 06:39 TurpinOS wrote:
Again, I never stated that LAIR = MUTA, I stated that 1 base lair = PROBABLY MUTA SO I WILL MACRO UP AND DEFEND AND STOP THE REAPERS
Interesting. Because on the very last page: Show nested quote +Edit : with so few defense, scouting will be so easy by the reapers, and its pretty obvious that one base lair = mutas. Ghosts are also one building away at this point for the terran Huh. I'm done with you.
I guess i should have said, its pretty obvious that 1 base lair MIGHT BE EQUAL to mutas.
But I am sorry, your whole build must be a counter just because I used the wrong words.
Am I right ?
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(Incoming observations from a gold league player)
Reaper count:
5m 7m 8m
Asgard 1 5 5
Ocedic 2 5 5
Sephel 2 6 7
sp0h 0 2 4
(At IEM)
Morrow 2 6 11(+1 that was lost while harassing)
4-5 Mutas @ 8:00-8:10
Do you have any replays where the Terran scouts your Spire or early Lair+gas and changes build?
How well do you expect this to work if Terran start actively scouting for hidden buildings every game as a reaction to this build becoming popular?
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You completely made up the timings of what amount of reapers you'll have and what they'll be capable of. You based a lot on the assumption that the mutas have to play defense.
You claimed that lair means changing your strategy blind to prevent muta, and yet somehow you suggest that the terran will also be able to macro as well as throw up turrets.
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On August 24 2010 06:49 Fistdantilus wrote:
You completely made up the timings of what amount of reapers you'll have and what they'll be capable of. You based a lot on the assumption that the mutas have to play defense.
You claimed that lair means changing your strategy blind to prevent muta, and yet somehow you suggest that the terran will also be able to macro as well as throw up turrets.
1. I never stated an amount of reapers, if you re-read my post, I just said it seemed pretty odd to have only 6-8 reapers at 8 mins while the Z has a couple of mutas (your own words), and as seen by the poster above, the reaper count of a good player will be way higher.
2. I stated that a 1 base Lair zerg means changing your strategy, yes, because for me if the zerg has to tech off one base I have made a big win right there and I can have a macro advantage (which is huge against Zerg that is mostly about macro)
No where did I say that I would be able to perfectly defend the muta push with what I would have in my base, but you would also have my large amount of reapers in YOUR base and you would still be stucked on one base. (again, doesnt mean I win, just means that with equal skills, the Terran still should get a good advantage)
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On August 24 2010 05:58 zomgtossrush wrote:
whats next, gold players posting guides on how to stop a 6 gateway zealot rush?
come on, if your going to post replays, do it of something usefull.
Hey, you're on my ladder.
![[image loading]](http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2113/tossrush.jpg)
... 200 points below me.
On August 24 2010 06:19 Floophead_III wrote:
The problem with this build is that it doesn't work against anything else. Any opening that's not 5 rax reaper is going to decimate you.
You guys don't get it. You have to come up with a build that stems from a standard opening which can be flexible enough to account for any opening.
You can't expect everyone to 1 base roach/muta every game. It's a horrible cheese opening.
This build works against much more than just reaper plays. It struggles against early marine heavy builds, and early thor cuteness. That said, it's extremely easy to change your strat with proper scouting. Especially when the roach warren is already there.
On August 24 2010 06:20 TurpinOS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 06:06 Fistdantilus wrote:On August 24 2010 05:54 TurpinOS wrote:
As soon as the T player sees the Lair, he will just stop the reaper production, start massing marines and get stim (easy with 5 rax + tech labs), expand and out-macro you.
I dont see how this build is an effective counter since
1. you are stucked to 1 base while he has 2
2. he still has around 10-12 reapers on the map, as soon as your mutas leave your main, you have NOTHING to defend against them (10-12 reapers will tear out in a second 3 roaches + crawler, and without lings with speed you can say goodbye to your main)
Very all-inish, only way I see this working is if the T has no idea about the incoming mutas (and still, if your mutas go for his base its a trade-off)
Edit : with so few defense, scouting will be so easy by the reapers, and its pretty obvious that one base lair = mutas. Ghosts are also one building away at this point for the terran So... what's it like, theorycrafting 2x more than playing? Fun? I'm just curious, because you're way off on everything here. Not to mention presuming the exact opposite that was explicitly shown in the replays. These are high diamond players, and they just rolled over. If it's so obvious mutas are coming, why do people that are far better than you clearly screw this up? And they are going FIVE RAX reaper, and yet they don't have anywhere near the 10-12 reapers you claim is possible by this time. They have at most 6-8, which won't do hardly anything against 3 roaches, plus queen, plus muta. 3 reapers is normal around the 6 minute point, where Bitter has 3 roaches plus queen. 6-8 reapers is normal around minute 8, when the muta come. As stated, these are NOT high diamond players, they are diamond players sure, but pretty terrible. Again, any decent terran will SCOUT, scouting a 1 base lair + 2 gas (IDC if he hides spire and shows roach warren), for me is a big red dot saying, stop the reapers, put up some bunkers, put up some turrets, start making ghost/marines and expo ---- just outmacro the Z that spent everything on 1-base mutas (aka, exactly the opposite of what the other players in this game do, they see the lair and still keep pumping reapers). Im at work at the moment so I cant actually check the times, but I seriously doubt that mutas would come when theres 6-8 reapers on the field (were talking about a 5-rax here, I dont see how its humanly possible that the guy would have a good bunch of mutas while the T has 6-8 reapers - note how the OP talked about getting 6-8 mutas) Even if thats the case, 6-8 reapers will murder non-speed roaches + queen (with no lings) WHEN MUTAS ARE OUT TO HARASS. So now, im guessing that you suggest keeping mutas in base to defend ? Seems like a viable strat right, 1base defensive mutas ? Finally, assuming that my skill level is low doesnt make your argument stronger, just a little tip. Also, usually, actual good players wont go for 5 rax if they see that the zerg is NOT expanding, theyll just stick with 3, expand and put up some def.
You're right. These replays are not against 1k+ players. They were all taken over the weekend while I was climbing from 700 Diamond to 900 Diamond. I've been using this build in every ZvT I play, and I'm winning 90% of the time. It's not as all-in as everyone wants to imply. When mutas come out, you get map control. You could double expand if you wanted. The best parallel I can draw for people familiar with SC:BW is to 2 hatch muta. Take map control with fast mutas, and then harass, expand, and punish.
And for what it's worth, 700-900 Diamond is pretty widely regarded as being fairly strong... At least, that's the impression I was under.
On August 24 2010 06:31 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 06:19 Floophead_III wrote:
The problem with this build is that it doesn't work against anything else. Any opening that's not 5 rax reaper is going to decimate you.
You guys don't get it. You have to come up with a build that stems from a standard opening which can be flexible enough to account for any opening.
You can't expect everyone to 1 base roach/muta every game. It's a horrible cheese opening. This is the most important post in this thread imo. The problem isn't just "how do I defend 5rax reaper?" it's how do you defend it without leaving yourself open to everything else. A 1 base play theoretically sounds ok, but with the way you pull it off I'd want to see replays show it workings vs other stuff. How do you transition if he's going hellion/marauder early push or marine/tank? Stuff like that. IEM spoiler + Show Spoiler +The last game of the finals is the most important. I don't really feel the need worry a whole ton on how to counter 5 rax reaper, but what I do worry about is how can I actually have a build that's safe to variety. In the IEM finals we see how Idra is completely unable to handle the variety when his scouting is denied or only shows partial information. That's the kind of strategy issue I'd like an answer for, not so much the Terran flavor of the week.
Again, the build works against more than just reaper openings, but for what it's worth, the reaper plays are pretty hilariously easy to scout.
T walls with a Rax. You see a tech lab. Sac an ovie. See 2 more rax? Can you guess what's coming?
If you don't see more rax, and you're not comfortable with the 1 base muta play (which has been done by players like Sen for months now, btw) then just do something else. You're opening with 14 gas, 15 pool anyway. Safe, and easy to expand off of, should you choose to do so.
For replays against other opens, go here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145712
Those are all still 700+
On August 24 2010 06:46 Asur wrote:(Incoming observations from a gold league player) Reaper count: 5m 7m 8m
Asgard 1 5 5
Ocedic 2 5 5
Sephel 2 6 7
sp0h 0 2 4
(At IEM)
Morrow 2 6 11(+1 that was lost while harassing)
4-5 Mutas @ 8:00-8:10
Do you have any replays where the Terran scouts your Spire or early Lair+gas and changes build? How well do you expect this to work if Terran start actively scouting for hidden buildings every game as a reaction to this build becoming popular?
No I do not. In one of the games I posted, T spots the spire with his reapers and is able to gib it after my first 5 mutas, but he still loses.
I have opened with this build against marine heavy T opens and lost, but that's because of my own stubbornness and refusal to tech switch. I'm serious when I say this is my go to build vT. At 900 Diamond, I don't claim to be anywhere near Idra, Dimaga, or Morrow's level, but I'm pretty confident that 95% of the people in this thread can benefit from what I'm offering here...
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I don't claim to be anywhere near Idra, Dimaga, or Morrow's level, but I'm pretty confident that 95% of the people in this thread can benefit from what I'm offering here...
This...If you're one of the 0.0001% of sc2 players who's above 1000 AND on level with the pro's than you're probably not waisting your time posting here. For most people this is a helpful option. The key being option...
- MrBitter, perhaps changing your title to be less of a declarative statement would be helpful?
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This was much help mrbitter. +1 for the thread
Sometimes I can barely read teamliquid forums. People always resort to insults and dick measuring when arguing. I swear the whole diamond point system is just inflating everyones ePeen and once someone else's is lower their opinion doesn't matter. =/. I don't think the title was the problem innovation, just the people who post in the forums.
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Downloading the replays now. Will watch in the morning, because it's getting pretty late here.
I think many zerg players must overcome the gut feeling that 1 base play is always bad.
Many players, including me, seem to be more confident in their 2 base play. Against a good player it's a constant struggle to stay alive and currently it's hard, but still doable.
But with players getting better and better we might see the return of 1 base play in the early game, because fast expo is just not defendable against opponents who really know how to exploit those builds.
The problem i have with 1 base muta is this huge timing window the opponent has shortly after your first mutas pop and you getting a second hatch.
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On August 24 2010 07:14 Innovation wrote:Show nested quote +I don't claim to be anywhere near Idra, Dimaga, or Morrow's level, but I'm pretty confident that 95% of the people in this thread can benefit from what I'm offering here... This...If you're one of the 0.0001% of sc2 players who's above 1000 AND on level with the pro's than you're probably not waisting your time posting here. For most people this is a helpful option. The key being option... - MrBitter, perhaps changing your title to be less of a declarative statement would be helpful?
Sadly only mods can do that.
But the title serves its purpose. Most folks crying about reapers on these forums can do this, or even fist's roach build and be fine.
And I'm not completely convinced that this wouldn't work against better players. My practice group has 3 900+ terrans in it. They can kick my ass when I do this, but not with reapers.
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On August 24 2010 06:55 TurpinOS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 06:49 Fistdantilus wrote:
You completely made up the timings of what amount of reapers you'll have and what they'll be capable of. You based a lot on the assumption that the mutas have to play defense.
You claimed that lair means changing your strategy blind to prevent muta, and yet somehow you suggest that the terran will also be able to macro as well as throw up turrets. 1. I never stated an amount of reapers, if you re-read my post, I just said it seemed pretty odd to have only 6-8 reapers at 8 mins while the Z has a couple of mutas (your own words), and as seen by the poster above, the reaper count of a good player will be way higher.
I didn't watch the IEM games but did idra go mutas? If i read this thread correctly it seems to have been concluded that dimaga and idra went speed roaches? Both Morrow and Sephel have the same number of reapers at the 8min mark but sephel had to deal with mutas instead of roaches. I think you would agree that if you saw mutas you'd stop reaper production.
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I don't see how this build works against any decent terran.
It's SUPER obvious that lair tech means mutas, any terran that doesn't realize this is NOT a good terran.
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Hey OP
your post consists or replays which do not include mass reapers played in pro tier like morrow does.
50% of the terrans are bad
thanks for the advice
..not
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On August 24 2010 07:30 Rev0lution wrote:
I don't see how this build works against any decent terran.
It's SUPER obvious that lair tech means mutas, any terran that doesn't realize this is NOT a good terran.
so what usually happens is the zerg loses a lot of drones/units/buildings to mass reapers and then they enter the midgame with the zerg pretty far behind due to sunk costs of trying to defend two bases.
This strategy forces the terran to cut reapers and move into midgame without forcing the zerg to take losses. Sure, the zerg doesn't have a second base but also didn't lose a lot of resources trying to defend a second base.
I think the difference is the zerg who normally is behind when entering midgame can be on more equal footing. Being on the same number of bases as your opponent is better than having one more base but half the number of workers yeah?
On August 24 2010 07:34 Keula wrote:
Hey OP
your post consists or replays which do not include mass reapers played in pro tier like morrow does.
50% of the terrans are bad
thanks for the advice
..not
Keula, when you go 5 rax reapers and you see 5 mutas when you have 6 reapers, do you keep making reapers? Honest question
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EPT
