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Hey OP
your post consists or replays which do not include mass reapers played in pro tier like morrow does.
50% of the terrans are bad
thanks for the advice
..not
Are you pro tier like morrow? Plus you're a terran if your icon means anything and this thread isn't advice for terrans. Sounds like you had no intention of doing anything but trolling the OP. Thanks for your intelligent input.
..Not
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Okay, so people dont seem to agree with one base mutas. the only other thing I think can work is fast roaches with good creep spread. I would also even queue queens. To help spread the creep, and it also takes a while for a reaper to kill a queen anyhow.
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So, I have decided to actually stop theorycrafting and watch the replay, since I was kindly asked to do so.
God it was painful, but what I noted.
1. None of the players you were up against played the 5-rax reaper ''as it should be played'', they all had TERRIBLE build orders (18 orbital command ?, cutting scvs to build rax 4 and 5 on 21-22 while not having the money to produce reapers ?) and didnt get even close to the amount of reapers they should normally produce.
2. There is a HUGE timing window in your build where you would get decimated. At 7:00, the terran should have around 7-8 reapers (see morrow vs Idra), and it should go up to 9-10 at 7:30. Problem is you dont have your mutas till 8:00, and trust me, 1 minute for 8 reapers is WAY more then required to beat 3 roaches NOT BACKED BY LINGS
3. The spire hiding is cute, and I can understand why people might not have been prepared for it, but still, no engi bay/marine in any of the games when the zerg goes 1 base lair EARLY DOUBLE GAS and no banelings. (note, lair is not the only problem here, the double gas also should ring a bell) Sure its not NECESSARILY mutas, but you atleast put up some form of air defense
4. You are still stucked on 1 base, which, as I explained, is very bad for zerg, and IF your muta push doesnt win you the game now, you are pretty far back. ( I dont think an all-in (or semi-all-in, call it as you want) build should be counted as a counter build. (Aka, saying that, ''In order to counter that you need to do this and pray it wins you the game'' doesnt seem like much of a counter build to me).
(AGAIN, you wont NECESSARILY lose if your mutas dont win you the game, you are just far back)
5. If the opponents had a normal amount of reapers for the time you push in with mutas (10-12), they could have just base traded.
(Dont give me the ''yeah but I can make Roaches then'', its the same as the fact that the T can make rines and turrets, they will still both lose a lot)
Overall : Cute build, but I still think that your opponents were terrible, that there is too big of a timing window if the 5-rax reaper is executed well and that a good Terran that sees a 1-base lair double gas should expect something and prepare some defenses.
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Again, I don't claim that this is the end all be all answer to reaper play, but I haven't lost on ladder to reapers yet using this build.
So I guess against all you guys posting here, I'd be boned. It's been serving me well so far, though. Until I start meeting "good" terrans, I'm going to keep running it.
My ladder:
![[image loading]](http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/3138/915ladder.jpg)
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On August 24 2010 07:36 caution.slip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 07:30 Rev0lution wrote:
I don't see how this build works against any decent terran.
It's SUPER obvious that lair tech means mutas, any terran that doesn't realize this is NOT a good terran. so what usually happens is the zerg loses a lot of drones/units/buildings to mass reapers and then they enter the midgame with the zerg pretty far behind due to sunk costs of trying to defend two bases. This strategy forces the terran to cut reapers and move into midgame without forcing the zerg to take losses. Sure, the zerg doesn't have a second base but also didn't lose a lot of resources trying to defend a second base. I think the difference is the zerg who normally is behind when entering midgame can be on more equal footing. Being on the same number of bases as your opponent is better than having one more base but half the number of workers yeah?
1 base terran > 1 base zerg thanks to MULEs...
I like this build however, because it allows zerg to at least have ALMOST even footing after holding off the reaper harass. Using speed roaches to defend your FE simply lets Terran players bunker up and drop an expansion matching your base count. Zerg NEEDS to be a base ahead if he wants to go into a macro game with Terran.
This build lets you sort of... reset?... the expansion timing. You hold Terran to one base with Muta while you expand (or double expand if you have the balls). This puts both players on equal footing (Terran on 1 base with MULEs and Zerg on 2 base with Muta/Roach).
I think at the highest levels of play this build is an equalizer, not a counter. It also is incredibly flimsy if the Terran player denies scouting and feigns mass reaper (Like MorroW did v Idra game 4 of grand finals IEM), or decides to go any early marine/ghost transition out of the early reaper play.
That said, I am nowhere near the level of skill that MrBitter is, or any Terran who can PROPERLY build a 5rax reaper build, and I am positive that a good percentage of posters here on TL.net are the same as me. Lots of Terrans will lose to this build because they just dont have the gamesense and skill required, and lots of Zergs will lose using this build for the same reasons. Its just like any other pro-level build, its not just the build, its the mechanics and abilities of the player that really determine how well it works.
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Holy crap lol, whats up dayvie. i wish he would do show matches since he can't go into tournaments because he is a blizzard employee.
As for the people spewing out criticisms. Instead of just saying this doesnt work because those terrans weren't good terrans. Could you please please at least suggest something that might work =/.
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On August 24 2010 07:52 MrBitter wrote:Again, I don't claim that this is the end all be all answer to reaper play, but I haven't lost on ladder to reapers yet using this build. So I guess against all you guys posting here, I'd be boned. It's been serving me well so far, though. Until I start meeting "good" terrans, I'm going to keep running it. My ladder:
Like I said, its no way a bad build, you are not necessarily always playing bad players and I would probably not beat you.
I am just saying that I dont think that this is ''the optimal build to beat a real 5-rax reaper'' which as been the biggest subject of dicussion on TL in the last 2 days.
(stilll gotta say that spire under overlord is neat)
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1 base terran > 1 base zerg thanks to MULEs...
I like this build however, because it allows zerg to at least have ALMOST even footing after holding off the reaper harass. Using speed roaches to defend your FE simply lets Terran players bunker up and drop an expansion matching your base count. Zerg NEEDS to be a base ahead if he wants to go into a macro game with Terran.
This build lets you sort of... reset?... the expansion timing. You hold Terran to one base with Muta while you expand (or double expand if you have the balls). This puts both players on equal footing (Terran on 1 base with MULEs and Zerg on 2 base with Muta/Roach).
I think at the highest levels of play this build is an equalizer, not a counter. It also is incredibly flimsy if the Terran player denies scouting and feigns mass reaper (Like MorroW did v Idra game 4 of grand finals IEM), or decides to go any early marine/ghost transition out of the early reaper play.
That said, I am nowhere near the level of skill that MrBitter is, or any Terran who can PROPERLY build a 5rax reaper build, and I am positive that a good percentage of posters here on TL.net are the same as me. Lots of Terrans will lose to this build because they just dont have the gamesense and skill required, and lots of Zergs will lose using this build for the same reasons. Its just like any other pro-level build, its not just the build, its the mechanics and abilities of the player that really determine how well it works.
Well Said! Agree 100%
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http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2544
There's a loss to mass reaper.
Expod while reapers were still out, and got punished for it, as T pumped marines to eventually negate the muta.
That said, I still think this build is very strong against reaper play, and I am definitely going to continue using it.
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On August 24 2010 07:18 adeezy wrote:
This was much help mrbitter. +1 for the thread
Sometimes I can barely read teamliquid forums. People always resort to insults and dick measuring when arguing.
Like Mrbitter's OP?
However, I'm not going to knock the build till I try it in actual practice. Off to watch replays now.
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Guys, I think I found the counter!
![[image loading]](http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/1603/reapercounter.png)
They'll never see it coming!
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When I first started doing this build 2 weeks ago or so I lost like 9 out of my first 10 games. Since then I am pretty much always winning unless my opp. clearly outplays me. I believe many of the terran players that OP has played against are new at using this build, and therefore making a lot of mistakes. After a week or so, the terran players will have learned to execute this build and understand how the zerg tries to counter much better. Obv. The big giveaway was that OP only had like 3 roaches. If he had gone for roach speed he will ilkely have produced many more roaches. An experienced middiamond (700-900) terran player would have figured that it was very likely that you had gone for a hidden spire and would have had like 10 mariens + enginerring bay when your mutas came. However OP strat is def. very good against terran players who are slightly inexperienced using this build.
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I can't play SC2 till next week so I won't be able to do this, but has anyone tried this along with 5RR and can compare the pros and cons of both?
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5RR is probably a little safer, but it doesn't secure the same kind of map control as muta plays. The roach push forces Terran to defend at his wall, and can win the game outright. The roach play is also safer against other openings - namely marine heavy ones.
However if the push doesn't do any real damage, reapers will just continue to mass, and eventually become too much to handle.
The muta build is a little more vulnerable to "other" stuff. Like if the T player decides something fishy is going on, and switches to a heavy marine+stim build. Additionally, if T finds your spire, it could potentially get sniped.
However, if mutas get out, and T has continued to commit to reapers, its pretty much GG right then and there.
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I only just found this thread! It's basically what I've been doing aswell!
I've been doing a lot of tweaking with cutting drones etc. and what I've come up with is very similar to your build. I get 2 initial lings, skip ling speed, get 3 raoches at 5:00 min and 4 mutas at 7:35 min. IMO this build should own a 5 rax reaper build, but as has been mentioned before, I think a terran will suspect something when he sees a 1 base, early lair, 2 gas zerg without a spire, and still prepare for mutas.
I'll definately be doing this for a couple of games though. I think it has potentional!
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On August 24 2010 08:46 memcpy wrote:Guys, I think I found the counter! They'll never see it coming!
ROFLOL
In all seriousness you should assume the spire as soon as the lair pops. What else can threaten you? Hydras-roach you probably don't have enough larvae off 1 base and a few tanks will let you expo comfortably and wreck them anyways. Infestors? Sure, beats reapers (eventually, since you can't FG immediatly and they take so long to build) but can't challenge the expo.
If you 1 base against reapers the terran player should have his expo up and some turrents down by the time your mutas finish. At least in my experience. And from that point, he can marine spam and just counter whatever you build with his factories.
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I feel like a strategy thread shouldn't be allowed to live if ONLY replays are posted without any background information at all. Some of us are at work and we read through these forums, but we can't open SC2!
Plus, it just seems pretty trashy to not have any background info.
With that said, if a terran goes mass reapers and scouts that you're doing some 1-base play, he can adjust really easily and be in a commanding position.
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On August 24 2010 04:24 Moonling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 04:20 memcpy wrote:
Watched all the replays.
asgard
asgard harassed well enough to keep you at 23 workers vs his 31. All he failed to do was assume you were building a spire when he saw the lair.
Sephel
Sephel was pretty bad. He waited way too long to start harassing. I'm guessing his multitasking was too bad to do so.
spOh
spOh was pretty aweful as well. His build order was terribad. At one point he made so many supply depots that he was at 21/43.
ocedic
ocedic is a friend of mine coincidently and I think he was the best of the 4 in terms of harassment. However, he is a random player and I know he hasn't done this strategy long enough to keep up his scv production (only had about 20 workers at the end). Again, should have assumed mutas when he saw lair.
Summary
None of these guys really did a good execution of the build and anyone smart enough to realize lair = spire will put up some turrets and end up with a worker advantage while being able to expand with marauders and turrets. isn't that what you expect from random ladder players who obviously do not have the Multi-tasking of Morrow or LZ? i don't think this is the answer to Pro gaming but for ladder probably so
In my opinion you shouldn't be practicing techniques that only work against a subset of the opponents you'll face. Practice strategies that are viable on a professional level of play because once you progress as a player you'll be required to adopt these strategies. It makes it much more difficult if you've already created poor habits with flawed strategies.
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On August 25 2010 04:05 Capnstank wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 04:24 Moonling wrote:On August 24 2010 04:20 memcpy wrote:
Watched all the replays.
asgard
asgard harassed well enough to keep you at 23 workers vs his 31. All he failed to do was assume you were building a spire when he saw the lair.
Sephel
Sephel was pretty bad. He waited way too long to start harassing. I'm guessing his multitasking was too bad to do so.
spOh
spOh was pretty aweful as well. His build order was terribad. At one point he made so many supply depots that he was at 21/43.
ocedic
ocedic is a friend of mine coincidently and I think he was the best of the 4 in terms of harassment. However, he is a random player and I know he hasn't done this strategy long enough to keep up his scv production (only had about 20 workers at the end). Again, should have assumed mutas when he saw lair.
Summary
None of these guys really did a good execution of the build and anyone smart enough to realize lair = spire will put up some turrets and end up with a worker advantage while being able to expand with marauders and turrets. isn't that what you expect from random ladder players who obviously do not have the Multi-tasking of Morrow or LZ? i don't think this is the answer to Pro gaming but for ladder probably so In my opinion you shouldn't be practicing techniques that only work against a subset of the opponents you'll face. Practice strategies that are viable on a professional level of play because once you progress as a player you'll be required to adopt these strategies. It makes it much more difficult if you've already created poor habits with flawed strategies.
In my opinion you shouldn't dismiss a technique as being nonviable just because you've never seen a pro do it.
I don't know how well this build works at higher and higher ratings. But I'm continuing to use it, and I'm continuing to win.
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On August 24 2010 04:15 Anesis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 04:03 neocron wrote:
Only watched the first replay. Mass Reapers?? Wont work against skilled players. You probably have not seen the Intel Extreme Masters, where almost each Terran Player went mass Reapers against Zerg. Even after defeating this early aggression the Terran Player was in a significant position, both economical and food wise. In some matches you could see the struggle the Zerg had against this strategy.
Actually, that strat won the tournament. Not the last game. But the series.
On August 24 2010 07:30 Rev0lution wrote:
1 base terran > 1 base zerg thanks to MULEs...
It's not only that. Your units (not counting roaches) are less cost effective and your production capacity is behind unless you build a extra hatch in your main.
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EPT
