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Stoli
Canada173 Posts
of course it is, but if they aren't playing their build to the full potential, and you are playing said "counter" build to full efficiency, you might falsely assume your build counters his.. when it was actually simply a matter of his poor micro/macro giving you a false sense of his limitations. same reason playing random when I first learned helped me so much | ||
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Fistdantilus
United States136 Posts
On August 24 2010 04:20 memcpy wrote: Watched all the replays. asgard asgard harassed well enough to keep you at 23 workers vs his 31. All he failed to do was assume you were building a spire when he saw the lair. Sephel Sephel was pretty bad. He waited way too long to start harassing. I'm guessing his multitasking was too bad to do so. spOh spOh was pretty aweful as well. His build order was terribad. At one point he made so many supply depots that he was at 21/43. ocedic ocedic is a friend of mine coincidently and I think he was the best of the 4 in terms of harassment. However, he is a random player and I know he hasn't done this strategy long enough to keep up his scv production (only had about 20 workers at the end). Again, should have assumed mutas when he saw lair. Summary None of these guys really did a good execution of the build and anyone smart enough to realize lair = spire will put up some turrets and end up with a worker advantage while being able to expand with marauders and turrets. All of these players were throwing everything into reapers. Reapers take forever to build, which blocks marine production. Sure, they could have thought "zomg muta" and switched to marines and turrets, but that just proves MrBitter's point: reaper opening easily defeated. The replays just show what happens if they keep making reapers like nothing's wrong. Regarding turrets as a viable defense: at roughly the 10 muta mark, turrets are a 3 second distraction. You need thors/marines because turrets alone get overrun. Not to mention that you can't cover your base with turrets in that amount of time. Regarding the "poor" harassment of these players, what would you do differently? You have a handful of reapers against a queen and 3 roaches on creep. There's not enough reapers to really do anything before the mutas come out. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
at roughly the 10 muta mark, turrets are a 3 second distraction. takes a couple of moments to get 10 mutas off onebase. Regarding the "poor" harassment of these players, what would you do differently? You have a handful of reapers against a queen and 3 roaches on creep. there is no need to do anything differently, if your opponent is doing onebase roach / muta and the terran player is not already transitioning towards marines with stim while taking the expo he is already doing it wrong. and thats the key. MANY people will do the 5 rax reaper build wrong and loose however the performance of random ladder players attempting the build is not the performance it should be measured with when discussing it. edit: if thats indeed how you measure a "counter" build then i could list speedlings into expand into roach are a counter because as far as i can pull from the terran players i have faced on ladder attempting the build with their pisspoor reaper control, flanking speedlings rape reapers. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On August 24 2010 04:16 fdsdfg wrote: Can't watch the replays as I'm at work, but thanks for not providing a build order or at least a vague description of your strategy, it really helps encourage discussion to obscure as much information as possible. I've actually detailed this build on these boards before: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145712 Lots of these newer players like to talk about how things won't work before they test them, or watch replays... On August 24 2010 04:11 neocron wrote: I know that mass reapers are clearly too strong -.- But in the first replay the T has max 6 Reapers. That's no problem! We are talking about 10-16 Reapers. They can instantly kill everything, even roaches! Just take note of the timings. Muta will pop before reaper reach that critical mass. On August 24 2010 04:20 memcpy wrote: Watched all the replays. asgard asgard harassed well enough to keep you at 23 workers vs his 31. All he failed to do was assume you were building a spire when he saw the lair. Sephel Sephel was pretty bad. He waited way too long to start harassing. I'm guessing his multitasking was too bad to do so. spOh spOh was pretty aweful as well. His build order was terribad. At one point he made so many supply depots that he was at 21/43. ocedic ocedic is a friend of mine coincidently and I think he was the best of the 4 in terms of harassment. However, he is a random player and I know he hasn't done this strategy long enough to keep up his scv production (only had about 20 workers at the end). Again, should have assumed mutas when he saw lair. Summary None of these guys really did a good execution of the build and anyone smart enough to realize lair = spire will put up some turrets and end up with a worker advantage while being able to expand with marauders and turrets. Clearly none of these guys are pros, but I would like to at least underscore the fact that all these games are between 700-900 Diamond on ladder. (I'm presently sitting at 902) Maybe the build won't work against morrow... But maybe it will. Speed roaches is as likely a response to mass reaper as mutalisks... On August 24 2010 05:29 Madkipz wrote: takes a couple of moments to get 10 mutas off onebase. there is no need to do anything differently, if your opponent is doing onebase roach / muta and the terran player is not already transitioning towards marines with stim while taking the expo he is already doing it wrong. and thats the key. MANY people will do the 5 rax reaper build wrong and loose however the performance of random ladder players attempting the build is not the performance it should be measured with when discussing it. edit: if thats indeed how you measure a "counter" build then i could list speedlings into expand into roach are a counter because as far as i can pull from the terran players i have faced on ladder attempting the build with their pisspoor reaper control, flanking speedlings rape reapers. Yes, marines with stim will shut this play down. It really comes down to the T's player ability to recognize what's happening, though. Muta numbers will vary depending on gas timing, and how many roaches you get, but I get 7 initial mutas regularly, and the timing works out so that they're popping around the time that most Terran players start their ebays. Also, without scouting the spire, there's really no way for a terran player to be 100% sure of anything. If he starts playing guessing games, his harass is going to be less effective, and the Z player (who should still be scouting) can choose to just transition straight into mass roach. | ||
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Innovation
United States284 Posts
Edit Works best to keep your original scouting drone alive and use it for either hidden proxy tech or hidden expo. Good players will almost always see a late drone leave the base and send out a scout to see what it's building | ||
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TurpinOS
Canada1223 Posts
I dont see how this build is an effective counter since 1. you are stucked to 1 base while he has 2 2. he still has around 10-12 reapers on the map, as soon as your mutas leave your main, you have NOTHING to defend against them (10-12 reapers will tear out in a second 3 roaches + crawler, and without lings with speed you can say goodbye to your main) Very all-inish, only way I see this working is if the T has no idea about the incoming mutas (and still, if your mutas go for his base its a trade-off) Edit : with so few defense, scouting will be so easy by the reapers, and its pretty obvious that one base lair = mutas. Ghosts are also one building away at this point for the terran | ||
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captive411
United States80 Posts
One of the more successful zerg wins against this opening was IdrA basically roach rolling the terran player who transitioned to marines. The problem with these openings is that there is much more room for error on the terran's side while the zerg is barely holding on through the first 5mins of the match. | ||
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ZomgTossRush
United States1041 Posts
come on, if your going to post replays, do it of something usefull. | ||
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drlame
Sweden574 Posts
Flamesuit... ON! User was warned for this post | ||
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Fistdantilus
United States136 Posts
On August 24 2010 05:54 TurpinOS wrote: As soon as the T player sees the Lair, he will just stop the reaper production, start massing marines and get stim (easy with 5 rax + tech labs), expand and out-macro you. I dont see how this build is an effective counter since 1. you are stucked to 1 base while he has 2 2. he still has around 10-12 reapers on the map, as soon as your mutas leave your main, you have NOTHING to defend against them (10-12 reapers will tear out in a second 3 roaches + crawler, and without lings with speed you can say goodbye to your main) Very all-inish, only way I see this working is if the T has no idea about the incoming mutas (and still, if your mutas go for his base its a trade-off) Edit : with so few defense, scouting will be so easy by the reapers, and its pretty obvious that one base lair = mutas. Ghosts are also one building away at this point for the terran So... what's it like, theorycrafting 2x more than playing? Fun? I'm just curious, because you're way off on everything. Not to mention presuming the exact opposite of what was explicitly shown in the replays. These are high diamond players, and they just rolled over. If it's so obvious mutas are coming, why do people that are far better than you clearly screw this up? And they are going FIVE RAX reaper, and yet they don't have anywhere near the 10-12 reapers you claim is possible by this time. They have at most 6-8, which won't do hardly anything against 3 roaches, plus queen, plus muta. 3 reapers is normal around the 6 minute point, where Bitter has 3 roaches plus queen. 6-8 reapers is normal around minute 8, when the muta come. | ||
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captive411
United States80 Posts
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quantumslip
United States188 Posts
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ExoTau
Canada67 Posts
Thanks for the replays, I really like how this forces the terran to make marauders and then you send in the mutas. | ||
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Innovation
United States284 Posts
Wait, can someone explain the point of a "proxy spire" as suggested by Innovation? I mean, don't the mutas still spawn from your larvae? Its to hide the tech...so terran doesn't see the spire and expect muta. Its just like a terran or toss who hides their tech all the time. Zergs don't often because they are stuck building on creep. Some really realy good players will suspect a lack of tier 2 tech but most will not notice and be completely cought off gaurd. Even if they do suspect they will be forced to spend significant time/scans on finding it giving you more time to drone up or take expo safely. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
You guys don't get it. You have to come up with a build that stems from a standard opening which can be flexible enough to account for any opening. You can't expect everyone to 1 base roach/muta every game. It's a horrible cheese opening. | ||
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TurpinOS
Canada1223 Posts
On August 24 2010 06:06 Fistdantilus wrote: So... what's it like, theorycrafting 2x more than playing? Fun? I'm just curious, because you're way off on everything here. Not to mention presuming the exact opposite that was explicitly shown in the replays. These are high diamond players, and they just rolled over. If it's so obvious mutas are coming, why do people that are far better than you clearly screw this up? And they are going FIVE RAX reaper, and yet they don't have anywhere near the 10-12 reapers you claim is possible by this time. They have at most 6-8, which won't do hardly anything against 3 roaches, plus queen, plus muta. 3 reapers is normal around the 6 minute point, where Bitter has 3 roaches plus queen. 6-8 reapers is normal around minute 8, when the muta come. As stated, these are NOT high diamond players, they are diamond players sure, but pretty terrible. Again, any decent terran will SCOUT, scouting a 1 base lair + 2 gas (IDC if he hides spire and shows roach warren), for me is a big red dot saying, stop the reapers, put up some bunkers, put up some turrets, start making ghost/marines and expo ---- just outmacro the Z that spent everything on 1-base mutas (aka, exactly the opposite of what the other players in this game do, they see the lair and still keep pumping reapers). Im at work at the moment so I cant actually check the times, but I seriously doubt that mutas would come when theres 6-8 reapers on the field (were talking about a 5-rax here, I dont see how its humanly possible that the guy would have a good bunch of mutas while the T has 6-8 reapers - note how the OP talked about getting 6-8 mutas) Even if thats the case, 6-8 reapers will murder non-speed roaches + queen (with no lings) WHEN MUTAS ARE OUT TO HARASS. So now, im guessing that you suggest keeping mutas in base to defend ? Seems like a viable strat right, 1base defensive mutas ? Finally, assuming that my skill level is low doesnt make your argument stronger, just a little tip. Also, usually, actual good players wont go for 5 rax if they see that the zerg is NOT expanding, theyll just stick with 3, expand and put up some def. | ||
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Shi
69 Posts
Proxy spire, I'm assuming, is dropping creep with an overlord and building it there, as opposed to the normal proxy spire on the side of your base. Definitely gonna give this a try. Had a friendly the other day against an offrace zerg and got smashed by this. +1 On August 24 2010 06:11 ExoTau wrote: MrBitter, Scrubby Gold Zerg player here. Thanks for the replays, I really like how this forces the terran to make marauders and then you send in the mutas. Marauders are to counter a roach push presumably. | ||
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Fistdantilus
United States136 Posts
Not seeing a spire is a dead giveaway there is a spire. | ||
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TurpinOS
Canada1223 Posts
On August 24 2010 06:21 Fistdantilus wrote: Innovation, don't you know that every terran player will drop everything they're doing once they scan a lair and throw up 20 turrets and install a hack to put valkeryies in the game? Not seeing a spire is a dead giveaway there is a spire. WHy would someone 1-base lair if not for muta, I mean, what are the other options ? , 1 base hydra vs reapers ? 1 base infestors ?. Or are you just suggesting to invest all that money into 1 base lair just to make your opponent think youre doing muta, and then spend what you have rest in ressources into T1 units ? Even if that was the case, if you see a zerg sticking to 1-base, any competent T would drop defenses and expand, its pretty basic. (also, since you need 2 gas for that build, which again is a BIG RED LIGHT for a Terran, do you suggest not using that gas just to trick your opponent ?) Edit : Yes I am indeed theorycrafting since I am at work, still, Im just trying to provide arguments why this build would not be effective against a decent T opponent that would not just keep on randomly pumping reapers once he sees it, and these reapers that were produced would still be useful to deny any expansion while the mutas are out harassing. | ||
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ExoTau
Canada67 Posts
On August 24 2010 06:20 Shi wrote: Hi, Proxy spire, I'm assuming, is dropping creep with an overlord and building it there, as opposed to the normal proxy spire on the side of your base. Definitely gonna give this a try. Had a friendly the other day against an offrace zerg and got smashed by this. +1 Marauders are to counter a roach push presumably. Yep, thats what I found interesting with the replays. Terrans (Not t hat great ones) will often mindlessly build marauders as soon as they see Roaches | ||
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