EPT[G] iEchoic's 1/1/2 Hellion Drop TvP - Page 23
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thisblindman
Philippines50 Posts
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habbey
United States405 Posts
im 2600 btw | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
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deeshoo
United States319 Posts
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policymaker
Greece152 Posts
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ScrubS
Netherlands436 Posts
On January 13 2011 23:03 policymaker wrote: Actually I have been tweaking the bo just to counter stargates at my level. Phoenixs werent used that much and and the couple of times they used them some vikings did the job, void rays timed push is a pain though. Since scouting the gate is really unlikely, in the start after a couple of marines I throw a fast reactor, at times even sacrificing ideal building placement for the wall. That way I have twice as many marines as before and am able to counter every protoss opening successfully, I have countered some really decent protoss plays that way(proxy gates/timed pushes etc) sounds good, got some replays? | ||
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policymaker
Greece152 Posts
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ScrubS
Netherlands436 Posts
On January 15 2011 00:40 policymaker wrote: I dont think i actually kept any, because the execution is poor. The minerals distribution gets messed up(I actually built a second gas earlier to keep em low), and I still have to figure out a couple of buildings positioning in some maps, yesterday I lost because a DT just sneaked into my base from the smallest of openings available(game was lost because of my late push actually but whatever). But the actual bo isnt anything special at the time, just 2 marines>bunker>reactor, and proceed with standard iechoic build, just double producing marines all the way, you dont even have to produce vikings as a precaution. I've experimented a lil bit with it, and just making a reactor after your factory and you're good to go  | ||
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policymaker
Greece152 Posts
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habbey
United States405 Posts
also vikings are still very nice to have as unstimmed marines can just be owned in a micro situation vs voids also if a reactor is somehow saving you vs proxy gates then they're doing it terribly wrong. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
But you didn't say what you mean by "at my level", thus we can't really know what to expect from said level. As for me (1700 almost exclusively paired against 2200-2300 opponents), I've noticed a trend since 2-3 weeks to fast expand a lot more from my opponents, usually including a rather fast robo as well, so that I can't punish them using cloak (except if I get vikings and scan, of course, but I'd rather have 6 banshees for an attack than 4 to harass), and the drop's damage is mitigated by the 2 nexi. Though it's actually very beneficial for the latest expand timings, where the 400 minerals have been paid (so less units) but the probe count about the same. I'm no longer at 95 win% and it sometimes goes to lategame, also. Not to train my transitions better.  | ||
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policymaker
Greece152 Posts
@habbey i usually wouldnt push before 6 banshees, and I found that the timings are like 30 seconds apart? I can live with that if it means holding off void ray timing push... I just felt that blind vikings production(to counter EVERY opening) is just too much to counter supposed timing push(whic is just before cikings pop out). | ||
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 10 Supply Depot 12 Refinery 13 Barracks (Naked) 14 Move SCV To Gas 14 Move SCV To Gas 14 Move SCV To Gas 16 Orbital Command 16 Factory (Naked) 17 Supply Depot 17 Marine 18 Calldown MULE 19 Starport (Naked) 19 Marine 20 Hellion 23 Supply Depot 24 Hellion 27 Marine 28 Move SCV To Minerals 28 Medivac 31 Bunker 31 Calldown Extra Supplies 31 Move SCV To Gas 31 Hellion 33 Refinery 33 Marine The key difference is refinery before rax. This build gets the three hellions and medivac out 30 seconds eariler (roughly 5:30) which could dramatically increase the amount of potential damage. Possibly one could use this variation in tvz or tvt instead of tvp as the threat of the early chronoboosted zealot always makes refinery first a big gamble. Potentially this would be a strong variation for tvp on 4 person maps as well, banking on a slower scout time from protoss and the unlikelihood of hardcore cheese on 4 player maps. Also as far as potential followups, the build leaves you with roughly 400 minerals and 100 gas. Expanding, adding rax, adding gas, adding an extra starport for iEchoic's followup would all still be possible potential transitions. | ||
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Defiled
16 Posts
Voids may give you some trouble, but its still quite feasible. I just played a game against a Diamond who was first in his division and he had 2 voids out before my drop was across the map. My helions never even got a chance to unload. I quickly made 2 vikings and threw some racks. I lost part of my wall in but my bunker still held. Viking rage forces the voids to have to engage with my bunker which is suicide. So my opponent retreated and this attack was quite successful. He had a good food advantage. However, I now returned to getting cloaked banshees. He had about 50 probes to my 35 scvs (bad macro I know) but my banshees came in and lowered his worker count to about 20-30. From then on, I simply outmacroed him. He went for storm, but my food count was just way too high. He left without even engaging. I LOVE THIS BUILD =D | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
@policymaker: the reason I don't do the reactored marines is for two reasons: 1) It creates a timing where you have less marines than you normally would (after you start your reactor's construction) where you can be abused by fast stalker/zealot. 2) I spend 100% of my money on the path to the 2x banshees, so fitting in anything else that isn't a unit (like a reactor) would take away from my unit count. @alphafuzard: You can get the hellions faster if you go ref before rax, but it makes you really vulnerable to a quick 1stalker1zealot push. You'll have 1-2 marines and will usually take huge damage. | ||
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
On January 17 2011 11:12 iEchoic wrote: Glad people are still enjoying the build, I know I haven't posted in a while. The build is still working great for me. I'm beating really highly ranked protosses even when they know it's coming, so I think it's proved its longevity. On maps like LT and steppes where the natural expo is highly abusable by banshees (due to cliffs on LT and no walking space behind minerals on Steppes), it is still incredibly strong. @policymaker: the reason I don't do the reactored marines is for two reasons: 1) It creates a timing where you have less marines than you normally would (after you start your reactor's construction) where you can be abused by fast stalker/zealot. 2) I spend 100% of my money on the path to the 2x banshees, so fitting in anything else that isn't a unit (like a reactor) would take away from my unit count. @alphafuzard: You can get the hellions faster if you go ref before rax, but it makes you really vulnerable to a quick 1stalker1zealot push. You'll have 1-2 marines and will usually take huge damage. yea i know which is why i suggested it as a potential build for tvz or tvt i actually used this successfully in a recent tournament finals | ||
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policymaker
Greece152 Posts
On January 17 2011 11:12 iEchoic wrote: Glad people are still enjoying the build, I know I haven't posted in a while. The build is still working great for me. I'm beating really highly ranked protosses even when they know it's coming, so I think it's proved its longevity. On maps like LT and steppes where the natural expo is highly abusable by banshees (due to cliffs on LT and no walking space behind minerals on Steppes), it is still incredibly strong. @policymaker: the reason I don't do the reactored marines is for two reasons: 1) It creates a timing where you have less marines than you normally would (after you start your reactor's construction) where you can be abused by fast stalker/zealot. 2) I spend 100% of my money on the path to the 2x banshees, so fitting in anything else that isn't a unit (like a reactor) would take away from my unit count. @alphafuzard: You can get the hellions faster if you go ref before rax, but it makes you really vulnerable to a quick 1stalker1zealot push. You'll have 1-2 marines and will usually take huge damage. glad you replied ! well, that leaves the question though, what do you do with a perfectly timed void ray push? a proxy gate can really hurt you.You just hold ur bunker off with repair till vikings get out? Produce a couple of vikings either way ? Does it all come to microing? What is your response at this certain situation? Perfect vray push happens at the same time ur drop is on the way. Suppose you didnt have the chance to scout(what good player will let you go up their ramp in 5+min anyway) | ||
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Defiled
16 Posts
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On January 18 2011 09:41 Defiled wrote: Do you think that implementing blue flame into this build would be good or bad? I wouldn't say good or bad, but it would make it more allin. The build right now is set up so that you can transition out into a FE and play a macro game, whereas if you went blueflame, you'd be spending a lot more on one base, creating less infrastructure, and you would need to do a lot more damage for it to be worthwhile. If you want to see how the build works with blue flame, just check out MVP vs Tester from the GSL last night on Xel Naga Caverns. The build is really good, but it is 100% allin. On January 18 2011 05:47 policymaker wrote: glad you replied ! well, that leaves the question though, what do you do with a perfectly timed void ray push? a proxy gate can really hurt you.You just hold ur bunker off with repair till vikings get out? Produce a couple of vikings either way ? Does it all come to microing? What is your response at this certain situation? Perfect vray push happens at the same time ur drop is on the way. Suppose you didnt have the chance to scout(what good player will let you go up their ramp in 5+min anyway) Well, they can't both attack and defend at the same time. You should be able to do huge damage with your hellions. However, at this point, they're allin, and you win if you hold off the attack. The best way to defend vs voidrays is to pull 6-7 workers to repair your wall to buy time. Start 3 bunkers well behind your walloff, making a concave around the front of your ramp. Do not let your marines die. If he kills the bunker, just run your marines back and allow your falling wall to buy you time until your bunkers complete. You should have quite a few bunkers, and with SCV repair, you can hold off, in my experience. I don't have any replays right now because it's been a long time since it's happened to me, but I'll post if I run into it again. | ||
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Mitzu
United States24 Posts
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