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On August 17 2010 04:28 Anomandaris wrote:
While at first I tought this idea was bad, I am reconsidering it now.
We all now the 4 gate korean style: 10gate 13 gas 15 cyber gatgategate bunch of pylons in opponents main warpin collect win.
What now if we spared the minerals wich we normally use on pylons in the opponents main to expand? We would get a FE and 4 gates to defend it. I have not tried it out, but I shall on the build order tester and in custom games tommorow.
What do you gurs think?
You're not really saving the money by foregoing the pylons and expanding. The pylons used in the Korean 4gate warp in attack are used also to increase the foodcap for constant zealot warp ins. Basically, the net result is that you're dedicating 400 minerals to your expansion when the attacker is dedicating those 400 minerals to attacking you. In other words, you still end up behind.
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4 Gate Korean dies to early aggression (like 2 Gate or Proxy), also would this variation.
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On August 17 2010 04:28 Anomandaris wrote:
While at first I tought this idea was bad, I am reconsidering it now.
We all now the 4 gate korean style: 10gate 13 gas 15 cyber gatgategate bunch of pylons in opponents main warpin collect win.
What now if we spared the minerals wich we normally use on pylons in the opponents main to expand? We would get a FE and 4 gates to defend it. I have not tried it out, but I shall on the build order tester and in custom games tommorow.
What do you gurs think?
FE means fast expansion; expandng after 4 gates and a core is not fast. Pulling off that build is like going 6pool to defend, it doesn't make sense. Also it dies to 2gate.
Actually everything but 2gate dies to twogate. Bring back shield battery for defenders advantage.
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On August 17 2010 04:35 Xanatoss wrote:
4 Gate Korean dies to early aggression (like 2 Gate or Proxy), also would this variation.
Well obviously scout! I often do the korean 4 gate but if I see my opponent 2 gating I do the same.
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If I saw a toss player trying to FE early game I wouldn't try to tech to colossuses and allow him time to yield the resource advantage. I would 2 gate zealots straight to his base and kill him. Sure you'll get to block off one of your bases with a cannon by the time my first 4 zeals get there, but then you other base is unprotected.
This strategy is not viable. You will get a fair number of wins with it because it is rogue and a lot of players fail when it comes to beating something they haven't seen before.
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After practicing the PvP expo after core some more, I think you can do it safely. It's a similar BO to my PvT FE, except I basically save more chronoboost for the 1 gateway and cut probes more as well. If you save up more chronoboost, you can actually squeeze in nearly 2 zealots while your cybercore warps in and still constantly chrono your first 3 stalkers. You get a big early-game army fast that way, and then you can cut probes after you start your nexus to get 3 more gateways. It's been holding against 4-gates today anyway. After that, I'm having some trouble tho. The T1 units w/ blink/charge aren't cutting it. I'm thinking you'll either need to try to catch up on robo tech, or transition to mass void after you research blink. The blink stalkers will force immortals and collosi, and then the voids could clean up. At least that's what I'm hoping. Haven't gotten a good transition timing down yet.
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On August 17 2010 04:28 Anomandaris wrote:
While at first I tought this idea was bad, I am reconsidering it now.
We all now the 4 gate korean style: 10gate 13 gas 15 cyber gatgategate bunch of pylons in opponents main warpin collect win.
What now if we spared the minerals wich we normally use on pylons in the opponents main to expand? We would get a FE and 4 gates to defend it. I have not tried it out, but I shall on the build order tester and in custom games tommorow.
What do you gurs think?
The Pylons also give you food, and you depend on that food to provide the massive Zealot force.
I'd really just recommend early pressure into a hidden expansion. Its not even cheese if the other guy is going for Collossi, because you know full well he's only going to have one Observer, at best, which is spending its time watching you and not what's going on on the islands of say, Lost Temple. Doing a standard Collossus rush, but making a single Warp Prism to drop off a Probe at a nice hidden spot and build a gas-producing expansion is actually a really powerful tool. All you need is gas. We've all been in the situation where we're pushing for Collossi against someone doing the exact same thing and can only produce one at a time because we're so gas starved, so we just build a bunch of kamikaze Zealots with all those surplus minerals. But, with that expansion, and surplus gas coming in, you can field more Stalkers and Sentries to ruin the guy's day, double your Collossus production, upgrades, whatever you want.
A hidden gas factory is pretty awesome.
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Problem you haven't really addressed and quite a few have mentioned: what the hell do you do vs a 2 gate proxy? A lot more people 2 gate proxy now to counter the 4 gate all in.
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On August 17 2010 07:46 holy_war wrote:
Problem you haven't really addressed and quite a few have mentioned: what the hell do you do vs a 2 gate proxy? A lot more people 2 gate proxy now to counter the 4 gate all in.
Well in the OP's case, you either change your game plan to a 2-Gate, or you die.
In general, you just 2-Gate yourself. Its near-impossible to get enough ranged units to hold back the Zealot swarm, so your only hope is to match his Zealot count and fight in a manner that favours you. If he proxies inside your base, then you're on essentially even-footing, although you have a slightly better economy in your favour. If he proxies outside your base, you just need a wall of 5 Zealots on hold position around the top of your ramp and voila. He now has to fight 3v5 and has to suffer a buttload of casualties to get in there.
I pretty much 2-Gate every game, because it forces the other guy to 2-Gate and pretty much renders any attempts at that Korean 4-Warp-Gate mass Zealot stuff null and void. I'd rather deal with Zealot micro and a transition to Collossus rush than base-trading with that crap.
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why wouldn't this be viable? i go 14cc a lot when playing TvP so what is it about PvP that makes this non-viable?
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If you see your opponent 2gate you don't fast expand. Not even zerg can FE vs. 2 gate.
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On August 17 2010 08:06 SilentCrono wrote:
why wouldn't this be viable? i go 14cc a lot when playing TvP so what is it about PvP that makes this non-viable?
The Zealot wall is unstoppable without Force Field, an equal number of Zealots, a hell of a lot of Stalkers, or Collossi. You just have to make a Bunker or two and voila. Complete safety (excepting a 4-Warp-Gate rampage). Playing PvP is really all about circumventing the Zealot wall, whether by using Blink Stalkers, going to air with Void Rays, hiding at the top of your ramp with a Sentry or two or just getting Collossi out as quickly as possible (they tear them up something fierce).
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On August 17 2010 07:16 kcdc wrote:
After practicing the PvP expo after core some more, I think you can do it safely. It's a similar BO to my PvT FE, except I basically save more chronoboost for the 1 gateway and cut probes more as well. If you save up more chronoboost, you can actually squeeze in nearly 2 zealots while your cybercore warps in and still constantly chrono your first 3 stalkers. You get a big early-game army fast that way, and then you can cut probes after you start your nexus to get 3 more gateways. It's been holding against 4-gates today anyway. After that, I'm having some trouble tho. The T1 units w/ blink/charge aren't cutting it. I'm thinking you'll either need to try to catch up on robo tech, or transition to mass void after you research blink. The blink stalkers will force immortals and collosi, and then the voids could clean up. At least that's what I'm hoping. Haven't gotten a good transition timing down yet.
Have you considered going putting down 2 more gates and a robo instead of 3 gates after the nexus goes down?
Most 4 WG pushes involve a hefty amount of stalkers, so if you mix it up with zealot/stalker/sentry immortal then I think it could be possible to hold, with micro of course. It would also help you on your way to Colossus a bit quicker.
I'm following this thread with interest, I have used your PvT FE with good effect, so looking forward to seeing where this goes 
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On August 17 2010 07:16 kcdc wrote:
After practicing the PvP expo after core some more, I think you can do it safely. It's a similar BO to my PvT FE, except I basically save more chronoboost for the 1 gateway and cut probes more as well. If you save up more chronoboost, you can actually squeeze in nearly 2 zealots while your cybercore warps in and still constantly chrono your first 3 stalkers. You get a big early-game army fast that way, and then you can cut probes after you start your nexus to get 3 more gateways. It's been holding against 4-gates today anyway. After that, I'm having some trouble tho. The T1 units w/ blink/charge aren't cutting it. I'm thinking you'll either need to try to catch up on robo tech, or transition to mass void after you research blink. The blink stalkers will force immortals and collosi, and then the voids could clean up. At least that's what I'm hoping. Haven't gotten a good transition timing down yet.
Hey just watched your replay. The build looks really solid, you only really had to cut probes thrice before the nexus (one right after your third pylon, another right before putting up the nexus, and one more to get up three more gateways). Even then your opponent was only half a production cycle worth of probes ahead of you and since you were on two bases your workers were mining more efficiently. I don't think you would have had any problems at all if you'd kept your units out by your expo so he couldn't forcefield you up on your ramp and kill all the probes you transferred. Your army was bigger than his almost the entire game, and was never smaller than his, despite putting up the expo. Great job *thumbs up*.
I'm going to play around in yabot sometime this week and see if cutting everything to get the nexus up right after the cyber core helps at all with efficiency vs. the way you did it. Hell, I'm so excited I'm gonna go do it right now lol. Will post back here with my results.
Edit: Will also try 3gate robo instead of four gate after expo.
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Okay, I did some testing in yabot and here's what I found:
kcdc's build order seems the most stable. If you pull probes out of gas and cut production of everything to get the nexus down ASAP after cyber core, you end up with 4 more probes, but only 3 stalkers instead of 6 by the time the 7 minute push comes.
On the other hand, if you build a robo facility right away it will be up and you can chronoboost an immortal out, but the immortal still won't be there until about 20-25 seconds after the 7:00 mark, which is pretty much the difference between losing your expo or not.
So cutting probes after your third stalker to get four gateways up ASAP is definitely the most stable build for holding off a four-gate push.
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EPT
