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On August 16 2010 23:36 kcdc wrote:
@Sugar
I think you're right. After playing around with the cannon expand, it could maaaaaybe work if you really scout your base for pylons and perfectly time out when to add more cannons, but it just feels too hard. When something is going to work, it usually feels strong pretty quickly, but this one isn't.
I'll go back to working on an expansion after core. If you constantly chronoboost units out of your gateways as they finish, it actually takes quite a while to save up enough minerals to start your 3rd and 4th gateways. I believe constant unit production with chronoboost off of 3 gateways will actually result in a larger army well into the game than the way people usually do a 4-gate where they mostly let their gateways sit while they chronoboost warpgate research. So at least for now, you should be able to save 150 minerals relative to a typical 4-gate, and then by delaying your second assimilator and keeping those 3 extra probes on minerals, you could probably squeeze out an additional 150-200 minerals relative to your opponent by the time they'd attack. So with some good scouting and some well-timed probe cutting, I think you could more or less match your opponent's unit count and make up any slight difference by pulling probes. The expand after core can probably be done. But if it can, it will be super-close.
I would actually recommend pulling all probes out of gas while saving for the nexus.
Edit: Unless you can think of a reason not to.
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@Catch and Sugar
About favoring minerals entirely over gas and using almost entirely zealots, I've definitely considered it, but I'm worried about 3 stalkers showing up and just kiting your zealots down while rallying more stalkers across the map before you can get something to stop it. I don't know how big of a blob of zealots you could get, so maybe they'd just take long enough to kill with kiting that you could get a stalker or 2 on the high ground in time to discourage the kiting. I don't know. It's another idea on my 'to try' list, and I'll definitely watch that D9D. I've been keeping an eye out for PvP D9D's cause I really hate the current style of play.
Also, Catch, glad I was able to get you to come around on PvT expo after core. Hopefully not too many more P players start using it tho, or T players might start adjusting.
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The only expansion you can get away with in PvP is either a hidden one (surprisingly good, considering Protoss have a lot of trouble scouting the whole map without Phoenixes or Hallucination, which nobody gets), or post-Collossus. At that point you're spending 200 gas every time it comes available, with lots of minerals piling up, so an expansion is worthwhile. Not like the other guy is outnumbering you with Stalkers and Immortals when your both spending 200 gas seconds after you've gathered it.
You kept that expansion because he went for Collossi, which was a hair-brained move. I imagine most would just go for a 3, 4-Gate or Immortal push and kick your ass.
And slowing down Warp Gate tech like that is just suicide.
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On August 17 2010 00:28 kcdc wrote:
@Catch and Sugar
About favoring minerals entirely over gas and using almost entirely zealots, I've definitely considered it, but I'm worried about 3 stalkers showing up and just kiting your zealots down while rallying more stalkers across the map before you can get something to stop it. I don't know how big of a blob of zealots you could get, so maybe they'd just take long enough to kill with kiting that you could get a stalker or 2 on the high ground in time to discourage the kiting. I don't know. It's another idea on my 'to try' list, and I'll definitely watch that D9D. I've been keeping an eye out for PvP D9D's cause I really hate the current style of play.
Also, Catch, glad I was able to get you to come around on PvT expo after core. Hopefully not too many more P players start using it tho, or T players might start adjusting.
I'm not suggesting using pure zealots, because you're right that would die to 3 stalkers easy. I'm saying to play standard and chronoboost your army out instead of warp gates so that your army size is high enough to kill your opponent. Zealots was an easy example because 4 zealots is exactly equal to the cost of the nexus, plus one full chronoboost will exactly half the production time of zealots. I see no reason why you could not play the exact same as you normally do, with the single exception being to chronoboost units instead of warp gates/probes after your nexus finishes.
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On August 17 2010 00:46 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 00:28 kcdc wrote:
@Catch and Sugar
About favoring minerals entirely over gas and using almost entirely zealots, I've definitely considered it, but I'm worried about 3 stalkers showing up and just kiting your zealots down while rallying more stalkers across the map before you can get something to stop it. I don't know how big of a blob of zealots you could get, so maybe they'd just take long enough to kill with kiting that you could get a stalker or 2 on the high ground in time to discourage the kiting. I don't know. It's another idea on my 'to try' list, and I'll definitely watch that D9D. I've been keeping an eye out for PvP D9D's cause I really hate the current style of play.
Also, Catch, glad I was able to get you to come around on PvT expo after core. Hopefully not too many more P players start using it tho, or T players might start adjusting. I'm not suggesting using pure zealots, because you're right that would die to 3 stalkers easy. I'm saying to play standard and chronoboost your army out instead of warp gates so that your army size is high enough to kill your opponent. Zealots was an easy example because 4 zealots is exactly equal to the cost of the nexus, plus one full chronoboost will exactly half the production time of zealots. I see no reason why you could not play the exact same as you normally do, with the single exception being to chronoboost units instead of warp gates/probes after your nexus finishes.
Yep, agreed. My comment above was just a response to whether I'd favor bringing probes off gas while saving for nexus. I'm not sure whether that would be best because you need gas (or cannons) to fight stalkers.
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sorry, if i scout you doing a FE, I'll just do the any 4 gate and get my free win.
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On August 17 2010 00:53 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 00:46 SugarBear wrote:On August 17 2010 00:28 kcdc wrote:
@Catch and Sugar
About favoring minerals entirely over gas and using almost entirely zealots, I've definitely considered it, but I'm worried about 3 stalkers showing up and just kiting your zealots down while rallying more stalkers across the map before you can get something to stop it. I don't know how big of a blob of zealots you could get, so maybe they'd just take long enough to kill with kiting that you could get a stalker or 2 on the high ground in time to discourage the kiting. I don't know. It's another idea on my 'to try' list, and I'll definitely watch that D9D. I've been keeping an eye out for PvP D9D's cause I really hate the current style of play.
Also, Catch, glad I was able to get you to come around on PvT expo after core. Hopefully not too many more P players start using it tho, or T players might start adjusting. I'm not suggesting using pure zealots, because you're right that would die to 3 stalkers easy. I'm saying to play standard and chronoboost your army out instead of warp gates so that your army size is high enough to kill your opponent. Zealots was an easy example because 4 zealots is exactly equal to the cost of the nexus, plus one full chronoboost will exactly half the production time of zealots. I see no reason why you could not play the exact same as you normally do, with the single exception being to chronoboost units instead of warp gates/probes after your nexus finishes. Yep, agreed. My comment above was just a response to whether I'd favor bringing probes off gas while saving for nexus. I'm not sure whether that would be best because you need gas (or cannons) to fight stalkers.
It's probably just a matter of preference, but if you take probes off gas for just the 400 minerals you need for the nexus and then put them right back in, you would have the exact amount of gas you typically have if you just skipped the nexus and did x build.
Anyway, if you try it out and have success I'd love to watch some replays ^^
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My initial thoughts about the gas timings are this, you know how most good zerg players pull drones from gas after they get to 100 for the Metabolic Boost? What is we as protoss players applied this logic for Warp Gate research during a FE. Get the 50 gas you need for WG, and get the gas for either 1-2 stalkers depending on how comfortable you are. Then proceed with the FE and Zealot production as normal until the cyber drops. Once cyber is down, spend all your gas and then make the decision about what to do next depending on what you have gathered from scouting.
Also, I would say this style could lend itself to a double probe scout. If you have one safely in your opponents base, why not try to sneak a second one in, so that you can get a good idea of what else is going on, even after your opponent thinks you aren't scouting any more. This may prove to be more difficult than it is worth, but it could be possible.
I'd also like to point out that everyone in this thread understands that without really good micro and timings a Korean 4-Gate destroys this build. So please stop stating the obvious. The whole point of this thread is to consider whether this type of build is viable. And while one BO does directly counter it, that is the case with many other BOs as well. [D] Means discussion not flame.
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My answer to PvP FE = Blink stalkers, instant win
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I'm currently Gold League player, near the top of my division, and have lost to a Protoss player who basically went the similar tactic to this one.
I would be thankful if someone could take a look at this replay, and comment on it. I usually know what I did wrong and how to fix it next time I encounter a particular strategy, but here although I know what I did wrong, I'm not sure how to best approach this kind of strategy.
To describe the match a bit, the map was BS, and I placed a bit earlier gate at 10, proceeded to scout and saw an early forge. I then scouted my base but found no signs of cannon rush. My scout then died to a cannon in his main, and at this point I probably underestimated my opponent, thinking he doesn't know what he's doing.
I proceeded with my 3gate into robo build, transitioning into colossi. Sent an observer in his base, which died to his mass cannons around his nexus. I was feeling pretty confident after starting my natural exp, and trying to push out with my 2 colossi and the rest of the units. But then I hit 5 voidrays, with upgraded speed. I had to cancel my nexus, and tried getting more stalkers, but the mobility of the void rays was just killing me. At this point I was thinking well I'll just take out his expansions, only to find mass of cannons next to each of these. I tried sniping cannons with my colossi, but the void rays just kept on coming and pretty soon demolished my army. I was stuck in a position where I couldn't approach his expansions because of the cannons, and had to chase his speedy voids to defend my base.
Now obviously I had poor scouting, I held 2 towers, and after my first obs died to cannons I completely forgot to scout in some other way, so I had no idea about his expansions and the cannons around them. When I saw the void rays I though about going for phoenix army but I had no stargates at that time, so decided to go with mass stalkers, but they just melted against voidrays.
I've been thinking about this loss for a while now, and can't find the best solution to this. Would it be viable to just mass expand once I see him placing so many cannons in his main? Also, would it be better to use phoenixes to counter VR, or try blinking stalkers?
The replay is here, hopefully it's the correct one, I'll check it just in case.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-139562.jpg)
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On August 14 2010 23:57 Awesomestarcraft2 wrote:
umm... most pvp are cheeese oriented, 4 gate, or void rush, and all of these i think would be able to destroy this fe because when you are droning and getting down your cybe core, they can be massing or getting voids. if you get some stalkers out then you will be ok from void, but not a four gate. I think that, if done correctly, this will work against most late game protoss, but if they are aggressive, you will loose.
note: i am at 750ish diamond
4 gate isn't cheese. stop it. It's easy to transition out of it, and it allows you to get an expo, therefore it isn't cheese.
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Ok, so I tried out a FE w/ hella chronoboost on my single gateway and cut probes to immediately get 3 more gateways to put me at 4. My opponent 4-gated me, and I actually held. I had to cut probes and I lost a bunch more probes defending, so it didn't put me way ahead, but the FE held against a 4-gate, which I think is a good sign.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-139568.jpg)
I wouldn't watch anything past the 4-gate defense. We both massed blink stalkers from that point forward and I eeked out a sloppy win by slightly outmacroing him w/ my extra base.
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On August 17 2010 01:38 Nitron wrote:
My answer to PvP FE = Blink stalkers, instant win
I would think blink stalkers would fail miserably against the timings I'm talking about. Standard four gate presents the biggest threat, but by the time you chronoboost warp gates, convert your gateways, warp in a round of units, travel across the map, warp in a pylon, and warp in another round of units, I think your opponent's nexus will have collected 25 energy. At that point he can fight you to a draw and win because the longer it drags out the greater his advantage will be, whereas you have to win decisively right then to end the game in your favor. Adding the warp in time for a twilight council plus research time for blink, you would probably get roflstomped by an army that's about 10 food larger than yours, despite how well you can blink micro.
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On August 17 2010 02:40 Odoakar wrote:I'm currently Gold League player, near the top of my division, and have lost to a Protoss player who basically went the similar tactic to this one. I would be thankful if someone could take a look at this replay, and comment on it. I usually know what I did wrong and how to fix it next time I encounter a particular strategy, but here although I know what I did wrong, I'm not sure how to best approach this kind of strategy. To describe the match a bit, the map was BS, and I placed a bit earlier gate at 10, proceeded to scout and saw an early forge. I then scouted my base but found no signs of cannon rush. My scout then died to a cannon in his main, and at this point I probably underestimated my opponent, thinking he doesn't know what he's doing. I proceeded with my 3gate into robo build, transitioning into colossi. Sent an observer in his base, which died to his mass cannons around his nexus. I was feeling pretty confident after starting my natural exp, and trying to push out with my 2 colossi and the rest of the units. But then I hit 5 voidrays, with upgraded speed. I had to cancel my nexus, and tried getting more stalkers, but the mobility of the void rays was just killing me. At this point I was thinking well I'll just take out his expansions, only to find mass of cannons next to each of these. I tried sniping cannons with my colossi, but the void rays just kept on coming and pretty soon demolished my army. I was stuck in a position where I couldn't approach his expansions because of the cannons, and had to chase his speedy voids to defend my base. Now obviously I had poor scouting, I held 2 towers, and after my first obs died to cannons I completely forgot to scout in some other way, so I had no idea about his expansions and the cannons around them. When I saw the void rays I though about going for phoenix army but I had no stargates at that time, so decided to go with mass stalkers, but they just melted against voidrays. I've been thinking about this loss for a while now, and can't find the best solution to this. Would it be viable to just mass expand once I see him placing so many cannons in his main? Also, would it be better to use phoenixes to counter VR, or try blinking stalkers? The replay is here, hopefully it's the correct one, I'll check it just in case.
First thing is to throw down a nexus the second you see a forge before a gateway for your opponent. Second is to get blink stalkers to take out pylons inside his cannons. Third is get a ton of gateways. Fourth is push out and win.
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On August 17 2010 02:56 kcdc wrote:Ok, so I tried out a FE w/ hella chronoboost on my single gateway and cut probes to immediately get 3 more gateways to put me at 4. My opponent 4-gated me, and I actually held. I had to cut probes and I lost a bunch more probes defending, so it didn't put me way ahead, but the FE held against a 4-gate, which I think is a good sign. I wouldn't watch anything past the 4-gate defense. We both massed blink stalkers from that point forward and I eeked out a sloppy win by slightly outmacroing him w/ my extra base.
Nice! Gonna watch this the second I get home tonight :D
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What's the hub-bub with FE? It's certainly not a ticket to score a guaranteed win, nor is it a certain "strategy" to be employed in PvP especially. Beyond the early cheese it really is about one-base aggression, micro intensity, and choosing WHERE to fight.
Again, there doesn't seem to be a solid strategy on guaranteeing FE. If there was, then everyone would be doing it yes?  The player has to keep a mental count of units lost during skirmishes to know when you have a slight advantage to expand - this is the best time (unless you're lucky enough to be playing with someone who's been building photon cannons, then, in which case, you can expand all-day, errday).
Sure, there may be a timing where your FE econ advantage can mass blink stalker and overpower colossus tech, but what if he shifts to mainly immortals? or what about VR harassment while your opponent expands? or even a DT rush/drop? It's just not feasible to FE without knowing for certain that your opponent will be rushing colossus... which is never. =(
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You will die to 2gate rushes and 4Gate warpin, just as every single other PvP build does.
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Incidentally, do Hallucinated Collossi break force fields? Did they revert that along with a bunch of other stealth reverts they did a while back? I got 6-Sentry Force Fielded at my ramp yesterday on Steppes after the guy pushed me back on the first little bout and I was sitting pretty at the top of my ramp waiting for him. He took the opportunity to pull that little maneuver, expand and just crush me. Haven't seen that play in forever, so it was a refreshing, albeit frustrating change of pace.
I didn't think to try Hallucinate until after the match. I went Void Rays, got spotted by an Observer and stupidly sending the things right through the watchtower sight radius and that was the end of it. Should have just rampaged for Collossi, if anything. Lesson learned. That much gas spent on Sentries means seriously delayed Collossi. But at any rate, Hallucinate would be a good counter to that strat, too.
If not, its definitely a good way to secure an expansion without risking a gambit like an FE. Just gotta watch out for them, thar Collossi.
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On August 17 2010 03:37 AncienTs wrote:What's the hub-bub with FE? It's certainly not a ticket to score a guaranteed win, nor is it a certain "strategy" to be employed in PvP especially. Beyond the early cheese it really is about one-base aggression, micro intensity, and choosing WHERE to fight. Again, there doesn't seem to be a solid strategy on guaranteeing FE. If there was, then everyone would be doing it yes? The player has to keep a mental count of units lost during skirmishes to know when you have a slight advantage to expand - this is the best time (unless you're lucky enough to be playing with someone who's been building photon cannons, then, in which case, you can expand all-day, errday). Sure, there may be a timing where your FE econ advantage can mass blink stalker and overpower colossus tech, but what if he shifts to mainly immortals? or what about VR harassment while your opponent expands? or even a DT rush/drop? It's just not feasible to FE without knowing for certain that your opponent will be rushing colossus... which is never. =(
If you can pull of a fast expansion you gain a significant advantage over your opponent, so it's worth trying to figure out ways of making it work.
Certainly your opponent could do things like colossus/robo tech/void rays, but there's nothing stopping you from doing the same with a FE.
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While at first I tought this idea was bad, I am reconsidering it now.
We all now the 4 gate korean style: 10gate 13 gas 15 cyber gatgategate bunch of pylons in opponents main warpin collect win.
What now if we spared the minerals wich we normally use on pylons in the opponents main to expand? We would get a FE and 4 gates to defend it. I have not tried it out, but I shall on the build order tester and in custom games tommorow.
What do you gurs think?
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EPT
