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First off this is my first thread here in team liquid, so sorry for any mess ups. To the topic :D
So, i am a plat. Zerg player who has basic mechanics down as well as pretty good build orders. However TvZ is my worst match up particularly Mech. This game starts off with Reaper harass and then into standard mech play of terran with me doing the normal expand as zerg, looking back at the game i can tell how i was not aggressive enough in the mid game to deny his expos. However during the replay you see me throw my entire army into a nydus canal but get it completely obliterated to the fact marauders and tanks can hid behind buildings and ultras can't get to them, therefore even with the nydus i lost a army for nothing except maybe 5 supply depots
The game continues and he puts up PF at all his expos, so i think "Ah Broodlords" this works for a little bit till he gets mass vikings the only reason i came close to winning this game however was because he walked over 9 burrowed ultras with his mech army which got demolished soon after and then i destroy his base but oh wait! he has 3 PF's 4 tanks and plenty of vikings to turtle and slowly build up a army while i have mined out the map. Maybe drops as zerg? i'm not sure but on this map and with this defense ultras can not cut the power i need i'm lost and very frustrated. How do i beat terran end game!!
Please watch replay before posting- and again I'm not good, but learning (the last 15 min. is just us drawing it out since we both had no minerals)btw incoming stalematehttp://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=135523
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- Early banneling bursts.
- early-Mid roach/hydra pushes can work (before tanks)
- late game broodlords are your only option.
All that said, I very rarely go out of my way and attack a terran's base. What you should do instead imo is denying expensions BEFORE he can properly defend them, while grabbing 2-3 more bases than him. The map will eventually run out of minerals and you'll have the advantage, or you'll just use your huge eco advantage to tech broodlords and attack.
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try this, after taking your natural expansion and your beginging to make lings and things. take a ling and hold shift, then click every expo on the map ending with his nat.
now you will know where his natural is. if theres no natural that means get ready for a crazy ass timing push. you can repeat this every few minutes to get insanely good map control. and denying terran those "free" expansions is critical.
secondly pfs are fucking insanely hard to deal with for zerg. you really need either ultras broodlords or just use mutas to snipe the mining scvs. the best way to deal with fortresses b4 ultra broodlord is to drop and kill off factories and starports.
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I have this same problem with Terran building up a wall then sitting in there base with marines and turrets and just 1baseing but sitting in there 1base making the game take 30-45 mins long
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that was the problem every expo had 2 tanks 3 turr. and a PF so therefore its hard to break the defence i'm always scared to get hydras tho bc tanks just destroy them but i'm thinking now 1 base muta to late expand is starting to be a good option
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I've never tried this but assuming you have complete map control you could mine all the minerals while getting 3/3 upgrades but stockpile larvae and don't attack him. Ever.
When he moves out either use your larvae for mass corrupters or mass ultras. You should have more bases then him so easy to out resource him assuming you don't throw units away in failed attacks? Anyone tried this method?
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On August 04 2010 13:57 Thamoo wrote:
- early-Mid roach/hydra pushes can work (before tanks)
I don't think I've ever seen that unless the terran intentionally did not go tanks
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I don't know if this works because i play protoss, but it is possible to use "contaminate" from the the overseer to stop the PF from firing at you for the time you attack? In this case you just have to deal with his tanks.
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Early banelings is cool if u want to open the terran defense
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On August 04 2010 17:28 CyFlow wrote:
I don't know if this works because i play protoss, but it is possible to use "contaminate" from the the overseer to stop the PF from firing at you for the time you attack? In this case you just have to deal with his tanks.
No...it used to though. Why the fuck would Blizzard change that >_>
Really, against a turtle Terran, you can't do much. Nydus Worms and Drops are ONLY good if the Terran is too lazy to get 1 or 2 Sensor Towers. Why WOULDN'T you get Sensor Towers. They make the base immune to drops or Nydus Worms.
Personally, even though I play a macro style, I try to end the game off of 2 or 3 bases. I start off with 2 Base Mutalisks to deny expansions and to get good scouting. It also forces him into more sphess mehrines.
After I basically go mass Roach (and later on Ultralisks) and throw in a few Hydralisks at my base if he is using Vikings. If you notice that the Terran has no detection, you can win by going Burrow Roach. However, if he does, try doom dropping if he doesn't have a Sensor Tower. If he is actually smart and has both, then try to do two-prong attacks, feint doom drops, and just a bunch of wacky stuff. #1 Priority is to keep him contained though.
Also, if you notice that he doesn't have Vikings for some odd reason, punish him with Broodlords. You really need to find holes in the army composition and exploit it. Hopefully, he doesn't turtle up like the guy in Day9 daily #157.
On August 04 2010 18:31 ShadowIord wrote:
Early banelings is cool if u want to open the terran defense
But if they're smart, they won't wall of with supply depots. If you try to bust a good wall, you are all-in because you basically spent 20 banelings just getting in. GL though.
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On August 04 2010 17:17 TheFinalWord wrote:
I've never tried this but assuming you have complete map control you could mine all the minerals while getting 3/3 upgrades but stockpile larvae and don't attack him. Ever.
When he moves out either use your larvae for mass corrupters or mass ultras. You should have more bases then him so easy to out resource him assuming you don't throw units away in failed attacks? Anyone tried this method?
This is a very solid Idea. If a terran is turtling in the mid game he wants you to attack him. Dont play his game. Be aggressive with taking complete map control and play passive with the attacking. Deny Expos but dont feel like your in a rush to destroy his main. you can harras but dont 1a out of frustration.
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I start with a Baneling bust off of a economic build to see if I can do economic damage or at least take down his army, then take an expansive and use Mutalisk to force him into Thors or Marines (I haven't had someone go vikings yet). As soon as I see that first Thor, I start massing roaches and tech to brood lords, still using zerglings to delay expansions.
Remember that because of Mules, Terran will mine out faster than most players.
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a solid broodlord + corruptor force is really good...just keep massing them and itll stop even a viking fleet (corruptors r like tha best air vs air units ever theyre very efficient and get a bonus to m4ss1v3 plus corruption ability try it)
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On August 04 2010 22:09 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:28 CyFlow wrote:
I don't know if this works because i play protoss, but it is possible to use "contaminate" from the the overseer to stop the PF from firing at you for the time you attack? In this case you just have to deal with his tanks.
No...it used to though. Why the fuck would Blizzard change that >_> Really, against a turtle Terran, you can't do much. Nydus Worms and Drops are ONLY good if the Terran is too lazy to get 1 or 2 Sensor Towers. Why WOULDN'T you get Sensor Towers. They make the base immune to drops or Nydus Worms. Personally, even though I play a macro style, I try to end the game off of 2 or 3 bases. I start off with 2 Base Mutalisks to deny expansions and to get good scouting. It also forces him into more sphess mehrines. After I basically go mass Roach (and later on Ultralisks) and throw in a few Hydralisks at my base if he is using Vikings. If you notice that the Terran has no detection, you can win by going Burrow Roach. However, if he does, try doom dropping if he doesn't have a Sensor Tower. If he is actually smart and has both, then try to do two-prong attacks, feint doom drops, and just a bunch of wacky stuff. #1 Priority is to keep him contained though. Also, if you notice that he doesn't have Vikings for some odd reason, punish him with Broodlords. You really need to find holes in the army composition and exploit it. Hopefully, he doesn't turtle up like the guy in Day9 daily #157. Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 18:31 ShadowIord wrote:
Early banelings is cool if u want to open the terran defense But if they're smart, they won't wall of with supply depots. If you try to bust a good wall, you are all-in because you basically spent 20 banelings just getting in. GL though.
He did turtle up like the daily acutally except instead of 3 eng. bays he did 3 PF that kept me dead until he had enough banshees to slowly kill my base (i could not build A-A because the base was mined out _Blistering Sands)
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Zerg is messed up right now. No options. Early baneling bust, if that fails, gotta wait for brood lords. Thors, tanks, and Collosi will prevent you from turtling in like Protoss and Terran can. So you have to be very active in defense as well. Zerg is the most difficult race to play right now. Whether it's on purpose or imbalanced at the moment, we'll see.
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Personally I think zerg just requires a different style of playstyle. Also to those saying baneling bust, that sounds like an excellent way to auto lose against good terrans. There's so many easy standard ways to stop a baneling bust.
fat wall
marauder on ramp
clutch mule drop
noticing lings running across map despite him knowing you are walled
fast banshee
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If a terran wants to turtle let him. Send overlords to every expo on the map to spew creep. If he kills an overlord chances are he wants that expo, deny him it. Best way to beat a turtle is to starve him out, and keep scouting to figure out the best way to counter his force. Someone who turtles hard like that is usually all-in when they do finally attack since they let you have full map control for 90% of the match.
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On August 04 2010 13:57 Thamoo wrote:
- Early banneling bursts.
- early-Mid roach/hydra pushes can work (before tanks)
- late game broodlords are your only option.
1) Too bad that all non-retarded players know how to EASILY counter a early baneling bust
2) Would like to see a replay of this, because i don't think that you can do a roach/hydra push BEFORE the terran got tanks. If you want hydra range then he will have researched SIEGE for sure.
3) If you can survive those 2-3 terran midgame pushes broodlords are really good.
edit:
oh and if he's turteling to annoy you or because you outplay him, then tough luck for you because the game will take 30+ minutes anyway.
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On August 04 2010 22:39 hEndO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:17 TheFinalWord wrote:
I've never tried this but assuming you have complete map control you could mine all the minerals while getting 3/3 upgrades but stockpile larvae and don't attack him. Ever.
When he moves out either use your larvae for mass corrupters or mass ultras. You should have more bases then him so easy to out resource him assuming you don't throw units away in failed attacks? Anyone tried this method? This is a very solid Idea. If a terran is turtling in the mid game he wants you to attack him. Dont play his game. Be aggressive with taking complete map control and play passive with the attacking. Deny Expos but dont feel like your in a rush to destroy his main. you can harras but dont 1a out of frustration.
This is what annoys me about SC2 Terran. It feels like I'm playing Warcraft3 again. You can outplay a Terran completely but he can still drag the game to 30 minutes+ if he knows how to build siege tanks and turrets.
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Early roaches before tanks...NEVER work what decent terran does not get tanks agaisnt zerg?- Also sure you can poop creep on the expansions but then 4 thors 15 marines and 5 tanks move out to where your ovie is and kill it and are you going to attack that little bitty entrance on Blistering sands... if so then you already lost
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On August 04 2010 13:57 Thamoo wrote:
- Early banneling bursts.
- early-Mid roach/hydra pushes can work (before tanks)
- late game broodlords are your only option.
All that said, I very rarely go out of my way and attack a terran's base. What you should do instead imo is denying expensions BEFORE he can properly defend them, while grabbing 2-3 more bases than him. The map will eventually run out of minerals and you'll have the advantage, or you'll just use your huge eco advantage to tech broodlords and attack.
- Banelings don't work against players above copper
- There is no way you can get to lair tech BEFORE he gets tanks without getting killed earlier by the TLO push
- Broodlords aren't your only option there is:
baneling carpet bombs
ultralisks
proper usage of creep
proper usage of army splitting and flanking
proper usage of nydus worms
Granted you will not win 100% of the time, that would be imbalanced but if you intend to play zerg like protoss (a-move, only 3-4 control groups) you're doing it wrong. If you play zerg like terran (sit back, defend and push) you're doing it wrong. Too many players think that all the races can just macro to 200/200 and win. Zerg just isn't like that, it's totally different. Instead of figuring out new strats, they just come on the forums and QQ that terran is imbalanced.
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Try using infesters to neural parasite the tank from up on the high ground. It messes with his army and can seriously hurt him if he isn't careful.
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True. many players come here to cry about terran op, imbalance, etc. kinda feel like it, when you see top world zerg players playing really really good, and still loose to a pro terran (they wouldnt loose to a noob terran, we are talking about similiar level skills), that actually made some mistakes along the way...
But leave that appart, for the rest of us, that we are REALLY trying to get around it, to play better, to be able to beat terran. Im running out of ideas, and still having lot and lot of problems. Im not complaining, im just asking for help...
I had a game like this, yesterday. Total turtling terran. Siege, Torrets, PF, Vikings, Mauderers, you name it, he got it (with base + natural). I had ALL the rest of the map, i had tons of minerals, tons of larva, 200/200... And couldnt get in, he was out of minerals, and still turtling. I kept sending ultralisk (+3/+5), broodlord+corruptors (he had way to many vikings, i manage to hurt him some, but at a really really slow progression). Also he was making some harras with small numbers banshees vikings around my many many base, because is really hard to be able to defend the whole freaking map at once.
At the end i win, because i starve him to death, by keep attacking over and over and over and over and over... But after a 70 minute long game, i was to exausted to keep playing, and so i end up quitting for the day, wich means no extra fun, or anything... just sit back and watch some youtube.
Now, if there any better way around? or all my games where terran manage to turtle so well gonna be that long?. If it so... feel like i just should just quit, and concede at that point, and use my 70 minutes to play other more fun games =/
(sorry for my crappy english)
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EPT
