EPTCheese in 2v2
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
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Silu
Finland165 Posts
Just scout the Reapers coming, build a quick Marauder/Rine+Bunker as T (if you don't want to fight fire with fire), or a fast Stalker with P. It's also quite easy to delay the (non-proxy) Reapers by a LOT by blocking the tech lab with probe/pylon and block the landing site with a probe if he lifts. Vs cheesy Lings/Lots just scout them and wall off, and strike the Protoss base if he proxied his gates. | ||
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churn
28 Posts
I think things like 6 pool are okay in 1v1, but don't work in 2v2 or 3v3 edit for clarity: "don't work" as in broken, not that it isn't effective edit again: I actually have a replay. I'm the purple terran and you can see I was very disciplined about the scouting; I think I did that correctly. Also, I'm not the best at micro, although I definitely didn't have any game breaking slips. I'm not saying this was impossible to stop, I'm just saying it's a lot harder than it is in 1v1; also, I think my teammate and I were better than our opponents but we didn't want to just cheese every game. Replay link (can only be downloaded 10 times for now, so only get it if you really want it): http://rapidshare.com/files/407804587/Tarsonis_Assault__4_.SC2Replay | ||
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
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kar1181
United Kingdom515 Posts
On July 19 2010 21:36 Silu wrote: Fast (8-10rax) Reaper in 2v2 is not really cheese. It's a legitimate opening that doesn't sacrifice that much eco to keep the opponents off balance and occupied. It's very easy to transition to something "proper" from that. Proxy Reaper is kinda cheesy though. Then just try to get an unit (like a Reaper of your own) to the opposing Terran's base and rape his SCVs. Won't matter if one of you dies in that case. Just scout the Reapers coming, build a quick Marauder/Rine+Bunker as T (if you don't want to fight fire with fire), or a fast Stalker with P. It's also quite easy to delay the (non-proxy) Reapers by a LOT by blocking the tech lab with probe/pylon and block the landing site with a probe if he lifts. Vs cheesy Lings/Lots just scout them and wall off, and strike the Protoss base if he proxied his gates. If you go cybercore, gas, stalker, you're going to get rolled by the other protoss player in that sort of matchup. If you have a zerg as your partner it's pretty much gg right there. In 2v2, you have to open up 2 gate delayed core against any protoss n gateway push. Even if you can pop out a sentry it will only delay the inevitable. | ||
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Silu
Finland165 Posts
On July 19 2010 23:02 kar1181 wrote: If you go cybercore, gas, stalker, you're going to get rolled by the other protoss player in that sort of matchup. If you have a zerg as your partner it's pretty much gg right there. In 2v2, you have to open up 2 gate delayed core against any protoss n gateway push. Even if you can pop out a sentry it will only delay the inevitable. Well if you just go multiple early Zealots you'll be stomped by the Reapers in no time. Though naturally if the P gets hit by something like mass Reapers and Zeal/Lings often the best counter is just to let him die and have his ally go a robust defense and fast Banshees. Something that can sometimes help in a TP early game is to send one SCV early to your Protoss buddy to seal his choke with a Depot and repair the wall vs Zeal/Lings. | ||
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aeoliant
Canada361 Posts
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kar1181
United Kingdom515 Posts
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aeoliant
Canada361 Posts
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
it isn't really fair but it makes for an exciting game - aeoliant though, cause how is it exciting if you know you're going to win 90% of the time? I don't really see the point of a build that you never need to adapt to what your opponent does and just cheese - imho that's half the fun of playing other people. Why not just cheese computers then? /rant | ||
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baconbits
United States419 Posts
Stuff like double 6p if the non attacked person counters while the defending one fights the 12 lings (really, they just need to survive, thats it. Don't ever rely on economic builds in 2v2 unless you scout early that they are doing the same which super rarely happens) and its GG 6 poolers. Stuff like double 2 gate, etc. with very early timed rushes, you REALLY need to have your team member help you defend. if its 2v2 random and your partner doesn't do anything, yes its gg | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
Solution two: Instead of trying and failing to help your partner who is getting cheesed, go attack the two undefended bases mineral lines with 1-2 units each and then share unit control and 2v1 with double the micro/macro abilities. If you make a decent dent in their mineral lines this should be quite doable. | ||
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
As for stopping early reaper + other guy cheesing, I normally go depot rax and either depot or 2nd rax, scouting with my 8th scv. Doing this won't let me switch to maruders early enough (need to counter reapers imo cause rine in bunk is static and you can't cover your whole mineral line with one bunk, esp. since there will be zlots/lings (# of zlot > # of maruders when they're chronoboosting them out; heck when they're chronoboosting out a zealot from one gateway and building one normally from the second, they'll have 2 zealots faster then you get 2 rines from double rax) knocking on my front. So I'm wondering whether it's worth scouting with one of my orginal 6 scvs, so I can go barracks then depot, just to get it out a bit faster. Double 6 pool is fine cause I can block and zlots handle ling. Double gate is a little more problematic cause if they attack my partner and I go to help, my rines/few maruder will get caught without block, and there's only so much you can kite. Reaper in the back though really hurts though when there are units at your front though. Some maps, like Arid Wastes, are terrible for this because you and your partner are pretty far away (at least in terms of how long it take a ground unit to get there). Attack as a team, defend as a team is fine but imo the attackers have a (sometimes insurmountable depending on how good they are). | ||
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Azuremen
United States71 Posts
And this trend really punishes zerg players that try to do an economic build. Basically a target for "T1 rush me, please" | ||
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roliax
135 Posts
By default, my partner (Zerg) always scouts early and we can smell cheese. Double gate no gas? Half way done pool? Rax with tech lab? Nothing in the base? Stuff in your base? Once you know what is coming, they're all easy to defend and they WILL lose right after. Not gonna go into detail as to how to deal with them, but I guarantee you, all cheese have an expiration date and a relatively short one too. Defend it and you auto win. What's harder IMO is a 4gate/4 rax/mass roach of some sort after you've already scouted them (and see standard) and they get you unexpectedly, while you're focusing on economy. These builds are not cheesy and they can reinforce/recover more easily. Also, their base isn't prone to counter attack (I've dropped rax in opponents base with scouting scv against proxy gateways before). Lastly, even if you defend, you don't auto win. | ||
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bulge
161 Posts
twilight fortress is a very safe map as long as you and partner can wall-off fast, then you can do whatever you like. scouting and denying expos is important, as is amassing a fat force. TP combo with T expo'ing to 3 bases and giving P all his money is the best strat ever. scorched haven and decena are very similar, except xel'naga tower in decena is mega sweet, whereas scorched haven shows almost nothin good. reaper harassment scores big points. usually people make pushes when they want to expand to their nat. coalition is tricky because you got a fat ramp, yet your ally is nearby. a super early push can usually knock out an opponent. arid wastes just screams "rush!" because distance between allies is stupidly long. controlling the watch towers is super important, and also if you're the poor sucker who got destructible rocks, you should watch those often. as a zerg, you can't effectively wall-off, so usually you have to make early pushes, otherwise your opponents will probably push you. 6-7 pool works on some maps, but if they can wall-off, you probably lost. other than that, 2T with stimmed MM force will probably take you to diamond. | ||
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Torture
Canada221 Posts
arid wastes just screams "rush!" because distance between allies is stupidly long. controlling the watch towers is super important, and also if you're the poor sucker who got destructible rocks, you should watch those often. That map is so funny. I've played so many games where the guy with the rocks gets knocked out early and then 1v2 for the win. | ||
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skyR
Canada13817 Posts
I couldn't go kill the pylon with a zealot or lings would run into my base and my partner could not come help me due to the same reason. With an overlord giving the cannons sight of the mineral line. It was an immediate rage quit. | ||
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bulge
161 Posts
On July 20 2010 10:01 skyR wrote: How does PT defend against PZ that goes cannons and lings on monlyth ridge? This map seems so imbalanced since the bottom left position is the only position that has its mineral lines exposed to cannons outside the base (and yes this is where I spawned as P). I couldn't go kill the pylon with a zealot or lings would run into my base and my partner could not come help me due to the same reason. With an overlord giving the cannons sight of the mineral line. It was an immediate rage quit. lol i've never seen that, but thats pretty evil! | ||
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roliax
135 Posts
On July 20 2010 10:01 skyR wrote: How does PT defend against PZ that goes cannons and lings on monlyth ridge? This map seems so imbalanced since the bottom left position is the only position that has its mineral lines exposed to cannons outside the base (and yes this is where I spawned as P). I couldn't go kill the pylon with a zealot or lings would run into my base and my partner could not come help me due to the same reason. With an overlord giving the cannons sight of the mineral line. It was an immediate rage quit. Again, if scouted this is easily defended, especially if they cannon rush the T. Let's say it's scouted around the time the first cannon is going up. The key here is to NOT freak out. It'll take the P to drop atleast cannon + pylon + another cannon to come within attacking range. Once he gets within range, lift up the CC and land at the natural. In the meantime, your P ally should send over a zealot to help stop the lings. With micro, 1 zealot + scvs can take on 8+ lings. With the second zealot, send it straight to opponent P's base. This will force the lings to pull back and defend or risk the P to simply die. If they rush the P, as in your case, the key again is not to panic and overreact. It'll take some time before the cannons reach your base. Even let your buildings take a few hits before you need to do anything drastic. In the meantime you should: 1) Keep producing probes 2) Keep making zealots and depending on the game you could 1) Counter attack (if he goes crazy on cannons, he won't have anything in base) 2) Expand (if the lings are held off well) 3) Drop forge for counter cannons (only work if you scouted it very, very early) | ||
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skyR
Canada13817 Posts
And yes it would have been easier to defend if T spawned in the unfair spot instead of me (P). Forget the question of how to defend since I just raged from the first time going up against this cheese. Now that I know this can happen, I'll be scouting the south of my base all the time to avoid this from happening again -.- | ||
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EvaristeGalois
United States58 Posts
I was wondering if someone could give me an effective rush build, especially one that works well against a 6/8 pool, which the majority of the zergs I encounter use. I've tried more standard builds, but as discussed in this thread, they do not seem optimal. I've tried using a 4-warpgate build, but it is much too slow. Early pools destroy it, and the "payoff" from having 4 working warpgates tends to come much too late. So, I'm looking for a protoss build that: 1) Is fast and will allow me to cheese wins (this is apparently the best strategy for 2v2, as discussed in this thread) 2) Works well against an early pool from zerg 3) Has a higher success rate than a cannon rush (which fails to an early pool) | ||
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
Scout early, see if you can kill scv's building the barracks, don't lose the probe. Put a pylon down next to the rax after they finish it to block a tech lab. This lets you go zeal, if they lift, keep the probe under the rax as long as possible, etc. On August 07 2010 16:41 EvaristeGalois wrote: I'm a gold league (in 2v2) protoss player who plays 2v2 randoms on the ladder. I was wondering if someone could give me an effective rush build, especially one that works well against a 6/8 pool, which the majority of the zergs I encounter use. I've tried more standard builds, but as discussed in this thread, they do not seem optimal. I've tried using a 4-warpgate build, but it is much too slow. Early pools destroy it, and the "payoff" from having 4 working warpgates tends to come much too late. So, I'm looking for a protoss build that: 1) Is fast and will allow me to cheese wins (this is apparently the best strategy for 2v2, as discussed in this thread) 2) Works well against an early pool from zerg 3) Has a higher success rate than a cannon rush (which fails to an early pool) fast 2 gate chrono? | ||
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Telperion
Romania39 Posts
Best way to deal with reaper/lings is to do it yourself, at least partially. Have your ally fast reaper someone while you go blink stalkers. Wall your front with double pylon+gate vs zerglings and go straight for stalkers. But definately try and be the first to be aggressive. Also I'd suggest you to have a read on this thread on SC2 Multiplayer I think it would help you win more games. Cheeers! | ||
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Juvator
Netherlands199 Posts
On July 20 2010 04:44 teamamerica wrote: I was about to write a whole explanation of what happened but I figured that there's no point. Double cheese in 2v2 targeting one person and its pretty much gg, at least for that one person. I don't get though, cause how is it exciting if you know you're going to win 90% of the time? I don't really see the point of a build that you never need to adapt to what your opponent does and just cheese - imho that's half the fun of playing other people. Why not just cheese computers then? /rant indeed I just try to remember myself that those people that always cheese, can't really play a straight up game, don't know anything about builds and are just 1 trick horses. I mean its not like u learn anything from doing this .. u don't develop knowledge of the game, u don't develop any skills at all. ye a little bit of microing with 2 units .. but any retard can do that -_- but still loosing to a double proxy reaper rush like me and my buddy had just now is just frustrating... its to overpowered tbh | ||
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drag00n
United States24 Posts
u definately have to micro/macro to the core when you're rushing/defending in 2v2s cause you have more than yourself to worry about i think a lot of people learn many of the game's mechanics through team games and go deeper in the 1v1s, to discredit someone's SC skills because of them rushing all the time is not fair | ||
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TriniMasta
United States1323 Posts
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PaxSlayer
United States1 Post
On July 19 2010 23:02 kar1181 wrote: ...If you have a zerg as your partner it's pretty much gg right there... I really prefer to play zerg (1v1 and 2v2) but I'm starting to worry, is kar1181 right? For 2v2 I play zerg with my brother (terran) and I have been having understandable trouble in trying to emulate great zerg players (Idra, Dimaga, etc.) 14pool/14gas (or basically anything after getting more than 10 drones) won't work because I find 10 (5x2) zealots in my base when I have my first batch of lings done. My bro is fine, since he can get a nice wall-off and has some MM behind it, so obviously the cheese ignores him and rushes into my base. (btw this is in separate bases, like arid wastes) I have some ideas, and I plan to test these, but what are opinions on rushing to 3-5 roaches, to block ramp or just defend outright? 10pool and spine crawlers (before overlord)? Any kind of econ based zerglings? I may just be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, but I don't think it should be that way. Zerg should be able to do something besides 6/8pool. | ||
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