EPTits all theory and micro dependent though... it could be a good early harass technique to keep the terran in his base.
Zerg 4 minute timing atk - Page 2
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silver_fox
Canada243 Posts
its all theory and micro dependent though... it could be a good early harass technique to keep the terran in his base. | ||
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Prae
Belgium77 Posts
first time he had zealots & stalkers got owned by his production second time he had zealots & actually had an immortal up so enouph said :s this was both on steppes of war & in my match history it shows the last roach poppe at 4.30 something so it dont think its 4min gametime but realtime wich is fast but, i don't like it very much tbh :x | ||
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Tristy
Norway172 Posts
On July 16 2010 20:48 Slayer91 wrote: Someone did this vs me yesterday. [url blocked] It was RvR so I didn't wall with gate/core I did it with 2nd/3rd gates. Rush arrives with 1 zealot 1 sentry and 1 stalker up, maybe 2 zealots. I lost a stalker and zealot to poor micro and still held it off easily, having nearly double his workers because I wasn't really diverting chrono boost at all. (Helped get the 4 gates up though, not sure exactly if i should have cut probes at 16/3/3 just to be safe) Can't be described as anything but all-in, like all agressive early game zerg plays, because you can't keep up in worker count if you want to be agressive, especially vs protoss. Terrans just need a few marauders and you won't have ling speed in time to defend. If you want to be agressive as zerg it should be after you secure 2 bases. And no you can't spring forward in economy because if your rush is defended he will be able to outmass you and will already have way more workers than him. I dont see a timed push like this as an all-in, and he you played against was nearly 2 minutes late with his attack, and that with a smaller force then he should have had ready at the 3.45mark. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
PLEASE try to attack me with early roaches. | ||
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Tristy
Norway172 Posts
 ) But was not nearly enough to hold the eco I gain from this build, If it fails and he counters, he is either zealot heavy (roaches), or stalker heavy (speedlings), so you are fine either way and got your expo on your way (or you should atleast!). | ||
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Tristy
Norway172 Posts
On July 16 2010 22:57 Prae wrote: i just tried this vs a "very hard" comp Protoss & i cant win lol first time he had zealots & stalkers got owned by his production second time he had zealots & actually had an immortal up so enouph said :s this was both on steppes of war & in my match history it shows the last roach poppe at 4.30 something so it dont think its 4min gametime but realtime wich is fast but, i don't like it very much tbh :x Nah it is 3.45 in the QXC build order tester I think (atleast thats what I manage in it). was 5ish minutes in game on kulas, still completely destroyed him. Think I could have killed him outright but didnt take chances so just killed his probes. | ||
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Fydor
Canada43 Posts
20 Roach Warren 20 Overlord (you currently have a second queen) and then never mention making the third ovy to get you to x/34 supply. Just want to make sure. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
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HubertFelix
France631 Posts
Stalker just decimate them with hit & run (they don't have speed uppgrade). | ||
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Chronocide
United States126 Posts
9 ovie 14 pool 13 extractor @100 gas, speed 17 roach warren 16 queen 18 ovie then I make 6 roaches. After the roaches are leaving my base, I rally to them and start pumping zerglings, because they can catch up so easily. not sure what you guys think of that - I'm fairly new to the game | ||
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=136532 The difference is that it incorporates going FE in the build, which probably is a fairly good idea. I think with practice one could develop a sense about when to go FE or not with this build for maximum benefit. I guess it should do pretty much damage against protoss that goes gate, cyber and then waits for 3 more gates. Think you can hit it fairly hard there. Transition to hydra ling. Very interesting I will play around with this. Would be awesome with replays! But please mod do not close it yet, this is a very valid topic considering its fairly identical to play by korean Z as already mentioned Early roaches against a protoss who make a cybernetic core is auto lose for me. Stalker just decimate them with hit & run (they don't have speed uppgrade). In theory. Cant you use the lings (and maybe early ling speed, dont know if it can finish in time) to try and stop the stalker from kiting? Maybe you can make extra lings instead of like 1 or 2 roach to manage this more easily. Deserves to be tested I think. I'm definitely gonna play with this a bit. 've been doing something similar: 9 ovie 14 pool 13 extractor @100 gas, speed 17 roach warren 16 queen 18 ovie then I make 6 roaches. After the roaches are leaving my base, I rally to them and start pumping zerglings, because they can catch up so easily. not sure what you guys think of that - I'm fairly new to the game This makes so much sense! Roach first, counter the zealots easily. Lings with speed reinforcing in response to stalker production. But I dont know if its economicly viable in the long run and that it manages to do enough dmg to warrant it, but I'm gonna try it out or variations off it. Problem with toss is that he can just FF and your push will become nullified probably setting you back economically, but with constant pressure you will force him to not tech using that gas on sentries. And you can probably expand safely. All theory here. But Im excited to try it out | ||
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KiLL_ORdeR
United States1518 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On July 16 2010 21:04 ixi.genocide wrote: I watched your video and noticed that your opponent was doing the attack a lot slower and you guys were on a map that I would not recommend. The differences cost him a minute or so and at the time he should have been attacking you hadn't made your semi-wall in. If he had used the exact same timing attack I am proposing he probably would have left you w/ very little to no probes. You said that you didn't do your normal PvZ wall in which is why this isn't a good example of this because if you had the scout on 12 instead of 10 would have seen it and I would have transitioned to a ling w/ speed and hatch play. It didn't matter what wall I used. Gate/core is the same as gate/gate. I didn't even scout it. I only scouted it with my second probe when his roaches killed it from high ground. And I think you're confusing the game time and real time. He got the roach warren EARLIER than you did and I had I think 3 maybe 4 units out when it came. 1 minute earlier = maybe I have my first zealot out. If you look at my unit count and the screen shot you had of protoss from yabot you'll find they're pretty much the same. The difference is I had 1-2 zealots 1 sentry and 1 stalker instead of 3 zealots and 1 sentry. | ||
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RAUS
210 Posts
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SigmaSin
Canada13 Posts
I prefer to play this build getting only 2-4 lings before the roaches, and dedicating the rest to drones. Running your lings and queen around your base prior to roaches vs the first zealots is pretty much the same whether you have 2 lings or 6, and getting those extra couple drones earlier really helps the transition to 2 base lair (and gives you a larger margin of error for overproducing zerglings in a situation where you can't manage a runby). Edit: that depends on the rush distance though. It's pointless to build those drones if you're going to lose them, so if there are going to be 4 zealots in your main before you have any roaches, you need some extra lings. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On July 17 2010 03:02 SigmaSin wrote: This counters 2 gate well, but I wouldn't use it against any other build. You have a good opportunity to kill a gate and get your rallied speedlings into their mineral line if the P builds too many zealots (= doesn't get cannons in time) or doesn't have a tight wall, and you can easily just switch back to drones if they do cannon up. It absolutely does not counter 2-gate. A decent 2-gate will have at least 3 zealots and 2 cannons to defend the nexus warping in at the natural and will have stalkers mostly done on gateways. In other words, Zerg is screwed if they go for an all-in like this against a competent 2-gate opening. Remember, 2-gating doesn't involve giving away your zealots for free. You kill lings and drones with the zealots until the roaches are about to pop and then you run them away to defend your cannons. | ||
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SigmaSin
Canada13 Posts
On July 17 2010 03:46 kcdc wrote: It absolutely does not counter 2-gate. A decent 2-gate will have at least 3 zealots and 2 cannons to defend the nexus warping in at the natural and will have stalkers mostly done on gateways. In other words, Zerg is screwed if they go for an all-in like this against a competent 2-gate opening. Remember, 2-gating doesn't involve giving away your zealots for free. You kill lings and drones with the zealots until the roaches are about to pop and then you run them away to defend your cannons. Sorry, let me reword. It counters 2 gate if the toss produced 5-6 (or more) zealots or doesn't have a tight wall. Aside from that, the overlord will see exactly how many zealots are produced and the timing of the cannons, so you can decide whether to break a gate and run by with speedlings, or to skip the lings and drone up. I think it's pretty effective in that the threat of the attack forces defense. If the toss doesn't cannon, you can break in and kill probes. If he does, you can just expand without ever producing those lings. You can see everything P is doing while he's in the dark after his zealots retreat. | ||
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
On July 17 2010 01:02 Fydor wrote: Shouldnt it go: 20 Roach Warren 20 Overlord (you currently have a second queen) and then never mention making the third ovy to get you to x/34 supply. Just want to make sure. 1 queen and X/34 supply. On July 17 2010 01:27 figq wrote: Around the first attack the roaches are unupgraded? No speed, no fast regen, no burrow? Shouldn't the timing be such that there's at least speed, or burrow? They are also going to be off-creep there. I am calling it a timing attack for lack of a better description. The "Timing" part of it has to do with when your first set of eggs pop and you get the 7 Roach's. I would not recommend this against a wall in opponent unless they wall in late. For this reason the later scout (scout on 12) is really important because you will know if they are going to wall in by that point. If you scout a wall-in build a Hatch at 20 instead of a roach warren and push for speed upgrade. The problem with zerg speed is that to make this attack as quick as possible you can't afford zerg speed. Making the roach's prior to the zerglings doesn't work either because your lings are important for their first zealot and their scout. Saying that the toss should be able to handle this with proper micro is irrelevent because you should have equivalent micro (If you aren't as good as your toss opp then that's a different matter). It was late last night when I saw your replay Slayer91 and you are right, I was mistaking game time for real time; Having said that I don't think it would have mattered too much because if you look at the 4 minute mark on both races you will see 3 zealots, 1 sentry vs. 7 Roaches, 6 zerglings. Even if your opponent Force fields for another cycle it still won't be enouph to have our roach push be negated. Technically it should be an adequate counter to 2 gate (you wouldn't even need more than 4ish roach's) but that is kind of irrelevant. The point I was trying to make is that the opponent can do very little against this except wall in and if they wall in then you should scout that and go for a FE style game. | ||
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DarthLeader
Canada123 Posts
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On July 17 2010 02:17 Chronocide wrote: I've been doing something similar: 9 ovie 14 pool 13 extractor @100 gas, speed 17 roach warren 16 queen 18 ovie then I make 6 roaches. After the roaches are leaving my base, I rally to them and start pumping zerglings, because they can catch up so easily. not sure what you guys think of that - I'm fairly new to the game Why get ling speed when you're not going to be using lings early? I do a similar build but get gas on 15 so that I have 100 gas when my queen pops out to start my lair. | ||
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