Firstly thank you for taking the time out to read my post. I want to start off by saying I am by no means an awesome player at SC2 and this is not a rant, or a "wtfterranopimba" post, I am just looking for some inspiration and advice on tactics and strategies vs. Terran. I do not struggle with ZvP at all and it always seems that when I lose I can say "Oh, damn, well I guess I should have done X and improved upon X to turn that game in my favour" were as, when I play Terran, there seems to be not much I can do. My situation is, I seem to have difficulties against a few things most Terran players do.
So here goes! Firstly and foremost I struggle against stimmed Marine/Marauder. Terran players seem to be able to get a sizeable force active into play within the first few minutes of the game, and when they push its devastatingly hard to hold up against, if I am not wiped out completely I suffer a major blow. It doesn't matter to me atm if I scout this or not, I really cannot think of an equivalent t1 or t1.5 unit that matches the power of MM this early in the game, I though maybe some Infestors with Fungal Growth may help but that's way down the tech tree this early in the game, these units are valid the entire game I find, with the devastating damage output with upgrades, stim, Medivacs & Siege Tanks to bolster the force, I find it nigh impossible to beat this.
Secondly, Scouting, I struggle to scout Terran without sacking Ovies, which I really hate to do (They give me a look that makes me feel really guilty when I send them in.) as it makes me fall behind on food obviously. I can't generally scout other than that past the 1 minute mark because of the wall off and excluding the first rax addon I am generally in the dark the whole game.
I don't find Terrans superior defence much of an issue as I can just contain them if they turtle, so i'm not QQ'ing about that, but generally they seem to be able to crush almost anything I throw at them with relative ease, I'm getting beaten frequently by 20apm Terrans (I know apm isn't everything but i'm hitting average of 140+ and i'm macroing my ass off to try and stay in the game)
Anyway, thank you again for reading, please don't take this thread the wrong way, I am just merely asking for your expertise! (any replays you guys know that are good reference would also be sweet!) any way you can help me would be appreciated.
Are you trying to fast expand? You really don't HAVE to do this vs. Terran. Investing the money into a sizable Roach/ling or Bling/ling army early on allows you to put pressure on T, deny him expands, etc. You can always expand after you have shown him that you are willing and able to pressure him and that he isn't in control. If there is an opening or weakness, exploit it, and if not, sit back and deny his expand as long as possible and expand yourself. Just "fake" a serious attack at his front door and see what units he defends himself with. That's almost as good as scouting right there.
Hello there! Welcome to Team Liquid! From my experience, Zerg vs Terran is very terran favored. (I remember there was a thread about this, but I can't seem to find it...) I almost always go burrowed roaches. Most terrans go fast factory nowadays, unless they are doing a fast push which is not as common and can be countered with a couple spine crawlers. You should always try to get an expansion up because 1 base Z vs 1 base T is very very difficult. After doing so, invest in roaches. Get +1 attacks (vs mech) and +1 armor (vs bio). Get the tunneling claws and burrow upgrades while macroing up. During this time, the Terran should be getting his own expansion, so you will have some time to mass up an army. Be wary of fast banshees, so you should get 3 spore crawlers at every base as well. Also, keep your burrowed roaches hidden. A lot of Terrans will scan your base before they attack, so if you can hide them in a favourable position, you can unburrow them once his entire army steps over them. This should stall the Terran long enough for you to tech up. I like to go for fast broodlords Also, after the first attack, you should consider getting a third or ending the game there. Don't hesitate to get one inbase hatch, because roaches are pretty cheap.
On July 16 2010 09:13 Blackalpha wrote: Firstly and foremost I struggle against stimmed Marine/Marauder.
Marine and Marauder is truely strong, so you must use the extra mobility of the zerg. Make him stim and then try to fall back. Roaches and zerglings have been working out for me to counter this, but i to have problem with this. Later is infestors a good counter as you said, but before this i feel more like micro is the answer. To make him run out of stim might work, because as you said, this early he won't have medivacs as you don't have infestors. But by trying to use the little extra mobility in like speedlings, so that he can't move out because then you will counter.
On July 16 2010 09:13 Blackalpha wrote: Secondly, Scouting, I struggle to scout Terran without sacking Ovies, which I really hate to do (They give me a look that makes me feel really guilty when I send them in.) as it makes me fall behind on food obviously. I can't generally scout other than that past the 1 minute mark because of the wall off and excluding the first rax addon I am generally in the dark the whole game.
As Artosis does, placing two Overlords on each side of the main of the terran, you can sometimes catch a glimt of some buildings. But then, in the mid and sometimes lategame, there are only sacking overlords that will give you scout. But you can also make sure you always have some speedlings poking up. Getting one in is a huge win. And by always having two overlords to many you will be safe against supplyblocking.
This is what i, as a fellow zergplayer, would say. Otherwise i would really recommend asking a terran player, or even try to find one as a practisepartner! =)
Big luck to you, be in touch if you find the way to beat the Dominion! =)
early terran bio against zerg, you can respond by going ling baneling, upgrading ling speed then lair then baneling speed. because you can easily wrap around marauders and blow up masses of marines.
Id hate to play Jeremy from pure pwnage but K.I.S.S (keep it simple stupid) im pretty sure this could go into a blog post not strategy section because you are not ASKING ANYTHING.
Simple rules to improve upon: 1. try to sum up your griefs in less sentences and more questions (example: i struggle against mmm as zerg, here are some replays.)
2. Post the damn replays, we will watch them and comment.
Also Marine marauder is no match for Muta ling baneling. Speedlings to protect the banelings, Banelings to kill the marines, and mutalisks to kill anything that's left with impunity.
hello steve! as Duban said above me, if you choose to play an aggressively economic early game, i suggest looking into using banelings and speedlings. It's a very finicky build and if you mismicro, you can lose your army very quickly, but its also, imho, a really fun way to play .
suicidal overlords are for the greater good, but if you cant bare to send the cute little guys to their death, evolve one of those suckers into an overseer once you get the lair up, it might live to see another day! Other than that, overlords are really the easiest solution for scouting
Overlords give you a look when you sacrifice them? LoL what? I don't know what you see in those helium filled Gargantis proximae creatures but there are a lot of things you can do.
A lot of people don't, and didn't read your post (as you can see with the other posts), but I, along with the other few who did, can help you.
First of all, you want to scout. You have to find out if he's going Marine/Marauder/Medivacs or if he's going to use Mechanical units. Use a Zergling. If you see an oddly large amount of Marines, or even just a few Marauders, you know what he's getting.
Secondly, a lot of people above have said "USE FUNGAL GROWTH!" and obviously they didn't read your post. But, one thing others have said, some of whom also said to use Fungal Growth mentioned Banelings and that's the way to go.
Banelings are Tier 1, and they will do a lot of severe Area of Effect damage to Marines and Marauders. Stim Pack makes them easier to kill, and therefore tastier too. You should always hide them somewhere, somewhere where you can flank them without them finding you.
Your other solution is to get 2-3 Spine Crawlers and use them along with a lot of Zerglings and possible Queen Transfusions.
Like other have said, early on banelings + speedlings and a spine crawler or 2 can repel an early game bio push, and by mid game I'd just get infestation pit first after lair, fungal growth + banes + lings can destroy a ton of MMM. Make sure you get speed upgrades and fight on creep. the +25 energy upgrade for infestors is pretty useful too. This can also deal with a bio army with a 1 or 2 tanks, the speedlings can deal with a small number of tanks.
On July 16 2010 09:13 Blackalpha wrote: So here goes! Firstly and foremost I struggle against stimmed Marine/Marauder. Terran players seem to be able to get a sizeable force active into play within the first few minutes of the game, and when they push its devastatingly hard to hold up against, if I am not wiped out completely I suffer a major blow. It doesn't matter to me atm if I scout this or not,
Early MM is really strong. IF you fast expand, you really need some spinecrawlers to be able to defend a MM push (this is all IMO).
I think it does matter if you scout it or not because one thing that's difficult when playing Z, is to know the balance between drone production and unit production. If you scout it, you have some idea of how many lings/blings/roaches you need to build.
Secondly, Scouting, I struggle to scout Terran without sacking Ovies, which I really hate to do
Agreed. Running lings up and down his ramp to try and see his units will help. Also putting overlords on cliffs to try and see buildings. Remember to make an Overseer when you get lair to drop a changeling in his base.
(They give me a look that makes me feel really guilty when I send them in.)
Haha. lol'd
I don't find Terrans superior defence much of an issue as I can just contain them if they turtle, so i'm not QQ'ing about that, but generally they seem to be able to crush almost anything I throw at them with relative ease, I'm getting beaten frequently by 20apm Terrans (I know apm isn't everything but i'm hitting average of 140+ and i'm macroing my ass off to try and stay in the game)
This is the feeling I'm having too, but now when I'm not playing, I kinda like the idea of being the "underdog" vs T
Infestors with fungalgrowth is good combined with speed lings and blings. The hard part is to not lose that much during the first MM push ><
EDIT: OH! One thing that I've seen in my own replays that really could turn a game around, is speedling runby when he moves out with his army. Just grab a watchtower or two so you're able to see it
For me, roaches still have been doing fine against the MnM push, as long as you have some speedlings and maby a spinecrawler. But is that just me? I can't say i've played a hundred ZvT when Terran goes bio, so does it work? Because, i've also had problems with this, but i feel like roach/speedlings was the way to solve it? I see noone but me recommenden roaches, just want to know if you think it's a proper response?
@Skruttis : MnM with stim and conc shell will rip apart your roaches. It will work a bit better with speedlings to surround, like you wrote, but I think you need roach speed and creep for it to be really effective. Therefor I would suggest getting a few infestors with fungal growth and blings together with speedlings instead of roaches.
I'm not sure how long it takes to get infestors vs speed roach + creep, but it shouldn't be that much slower and therefor (IMO) it's a better option.
There's a video by HDstarcraft, who btw I find to be the most helpful commentator in terms of tutorials. It's a vid of how to defend against protoss 4 gate as a zerg, but im sure the same strat can be utilized to repel an early MMM push.
If it helps you, you should show him some love with like a subscription or something.
I'm switching back to zerg and i have to say that changelings are verry efficient for scouting you don't have to sacrifice an overlord everytime you need info after you hit tier2. You should use them more if you have trouble scouting and feeling bad when you your OL blow
On July 16 2010 10:52 KCrazy wrote: hello steve! as Duban said above me, if you choose to play an aggressively economic early game, i suggest looking into using banelings and speedlings. It's a very finicky build and if you mismicro, you can lose your army very quickly, but its also, imho, a really fun way to play .
suicidal overlords are for the greater good, but if you cant bare to send the cute little guys to their death, evolve one of those suckers into an overseer once you get the lair up, it might live to see another day! Other than that, overlords are really the easiest solution for scouting
What a nice way to approach a post! (seriously, KCrazy sounds like a very friendly person). I agree with KCrazy especially on the part about the overlord>overseer. A changeling costs nothing- an overlord costs 100 minerals, production time, a larva, and 8 food. An ovy sac should be used, as many things should be used- situationally. If you feel like larva, minerals, and supply can be compromised to a slight extent while gas is something you need right in that moment, then sure- sack an ovy. But otherwise, Overseers are faster, more survivable, and most importantly- spawn scouting units free of charge (not to mention that they can serve as detectors when they are(n't) scouting!). I think overseer is the way to go, and I feel guilty for not using them as often as I should against every race.
As far as being in the dark... We're talking mainly about the stage in the game where the terran player is getting ready to expand. If you are in the dark as to what he is doing (having no more knowledge than the fact that he has a few marines to kill your ovy or likewise/siege tank to kill you scouting speedlings) then fear two things- a bio timing push (which may include a tank or two) and banshees. Viking harass can work, but a good zerg will have the reaction time to not take too heavy of a loss from vikings (for the sake of preventing this approach, and many other builds, go ahead and have 3-4 queens for every 2 bases you control, which at this stage in the game, means 3-4 queens ). So there is not much to be expected out of a terran player on one base at this point (eventually there could be a diverse set of possibilities, but at this stage, where you are saturating your first expo, T is generally pretty limited as far as his ability to push out with anything but a bio ball (with or without a couple siege tanks and/or medivacs, a mass hellion, or a banshee harass). I always tend to think that if you are playing in the dark, then you have a diverse set of strategies that may be used against you, and as such, should have the ability to respond to those things. At this stage in the game, with those things being limited, try to be in a position to deal with whatever may come at you. So be able to produce banelings, have speedlings, have a roach warren- if you know NOTHING. But this is why you should never be comfortable with being in the dark, and why you should scout asap with an overseer. If you know that he is going mass marines with a couple siege tanks and is about ready to push out, then you know that you can make banelings and roaches and destroy his push. Accomplishing this, you contain him- let him play defensively, but limit the amount of places across the map for which he can defend.
I haven't read the other posts made, so please forgive me if I'm reiterating anything said beforehand. I apologize. An early terran MM ball... I agree, this can be extremely hard to deal with. So let me help you out from both perspectives as a player of all the races. The early MM ball required you not being scouted, first and foremost. Usually that first overlord who reaches my base is either thrown off by a marine, and doesn't come back, or is killed and they don't send another. This lets me amass this timing, and actually fairly expensive attack towards you because of a lack of scouting. I understand from the zerg perspective that it absolutely sucks that the T1 basic unit can kill the overlord, though as a Terran, I am completely thankful that it can so that you cannot see what I am doing.
With that being said, I find that most terrans will either go for one of 2 strategies. Most of which can be found out with my own timing 'push' as a zerg. Albeit, that it's hardly a push, more to see where they are in terms of unit composition. I usually run in with roughly.. 12 or so speedlings at the five minute mark after the initial scouting of my overlord. I try and keep the overlord behind their mineral line, just out of range of the marines. This doesn't work on every map, obviously, but if applicable, it's what I like to do. This lets me check how many scv's he had on gas, how many he has in general on minerals. For those curious, you can see just a shadowy image of an scv moving back and forth just as one exits and one enters, with another on standby. This lets me know he has 3 on gas, and is usually amassing something, or teching.
When the timing push comes on my part, I never take into account I will ever get in. I assume the units I send over there will die, because he has a force ready to kill them. This lets me plan in preparation of that. I, just by general preference, like to go a double extractor as soon as the spawning pool finishes. I get the ling upgrade, and have about 10 on minerals, 6 on gas, 3 per each extrac. Why? Because I usually have more than enough minerals to spend on lings, extra drones, etc for it not to be a major issue. Secondly, the double gas helps -immensely- towards the mid and late game. When my lair spawns, and I have 350 gas in the bank, it's so much better than "Oh, I should put down a couple of extractors." Because in the beta, gas is a lot more essential, because it's limited, and basically past your opening stuff, everything requires it to some extent.
Off topic a bit there, my apologies. I send in the speedlings, as I said, with the intention that they are going to die. More often than not, however, I meet their obvious wall off. Based on how many marines and marauders shoot at my lings while they chomp and get their iron fill for the day, I can see whether or not they have made more than usual, more importantly, I can assume they're setting up for the dreaded stim, health, conc push.Maybe just stim and conc at times. As soon as I can gauge how fast my lings die. If I see 4 dead by the time I hit space, which is usually as soon as I get the nice little memo that I'm getting shrapnel from bullets up my ass, I pull back, instantly make a banelings nest, and use the next larvae to amass lings. I know at this time, a scan will be coming down, because as all good terrans do, they let you know with a scan when they're ready to push by checking how f'd they are. Keep your speedlings, roaches, and banelings away from the main and natural. Even in one of the odd corners that is not normally scouted is fine. Just try and keep your opponent as much in the dark as possible. Make some banelings, I usually go with 20, just because you can guarantee that those junkies they call soldiers are going to kill a few. They blow up all, or most of the marines, leave the marauders at critical health, let the speedlings finish them off. You have time to expand, and build a lair, and your terran adversary is suddenly in a "I must amass siege tank, thor, and viking" mentality. Trust me, that the usefulness of your banelings doesn't end there. More often than not after you break the drug endorsing players push, you have plenty of lings and roaches left over. Make an excessive amount of banelings, break that supply depot wall, blow up his bio army with the remainder, let your roaches kill off the tank. Watch him scurry for his life, and embrace the power of suicidal stink bugs.
I hope this helps. If not, please feel free to post in areas that are exceedingly hard, or other spots you might need help with in determining timings, and what he's doing. Best of luck!
I can't really add too much on what has already been said though I do support baneling/speedling. Usually against T, fast expand, get gas up after expand and then it depends on scouting. If you see the marine/marauder, get ling speed, baneling nest and then possibly lair+burrow then muta (depending on attack timing). If you see mech you can get a faster lair (though you need either ling speed or spine crawlers for hellion harass).
Burrowed banelings are godly ... burrow 2-3 at a time where the Terran will walk, they usually don't waste scans on the middle of the map early game.
Speedlings will rip most things apart if you have enough of them, mutas are also pretty good once the marines have been hurt by the banelings.
As for scouting, don't send the first overlord in too early. You know a Terran will always have 1 Barracks so that isn't useful information. What you want to see is whether he has 3 rax or a factory and what the addons are so make sure you time that first overlord's death accordingly (with the time that gives you you can actually get around the Terran base on a lot of maps and get a better angle to see more).
I always open against Terran with speedlings, + fast expand, straight into banelings. That combination will let you survive any early game push a Terran can muster up. From there the big scare is if the Terran mechs. So I go for Mutas (not to many), and use them to containt and harass the Terran player while I mass expand and tech up to Ultras. If he pushes out before I have gotten Ultras, his force is usually small enough to easly be swarmed with Muta/ling (banes if he goes marine). And always remember to have a decent speedling force ready to attack the Terran bases at once as he moves out to attack you.
Roaches, lings, a queen backing up in the defense (keep it away from the marauders) and 2 nice spines crawlers is enough to hold the expand if you dont mess up.
But, I guess that without a replay it really doesn't make any sense to comment. Maybe your macro slips, maybe you dont micro correctly, maybe you always wait with your roaches packed up when you should have 2 groups or a nice concave set up arround the entrance to your nat, ect.
Without replays, we are guessing what is the problem and you are guessing what is the right answer.
Blings are the scariest in the early-mid game to me but only in the hands of a good microer, if that is not you, a couple of my early tanks will probably kill most of them before you even get to my marines. (I usually push out with 2 quick tanks and rines using something along the lines of 2/1/1). If I see banelings, I will probably camp out and wait for you to come to me before I push out and start producing marauders instead of marines.
As the game progresses into mid game I have by far the most trouble with burrowed roaches. These are the only units that really bother my tank line backed with heavy rines. I usually don't have a raven as I generally opt for a reactor on my starport and depend on scans which I am thinking about changing to tech lab for just this reason. Every now and then someone suprises me with a well hidden spire, but generally I have an engineering bay up and whenever zerg goes mutas my heavy marine build and some turrets around mineral lines gives me an autowin.
Get Roaches fast, because with them you can start with early aggression.
Good Macro (safe Macro). Never Stop Expanding
Know your timings when to Drone up and when to make Units.
Constantly scout your opponent (Overlords, Overseer, Zergling).
Spread your creep. ->If you have everything well linked, you're safe from any harrass and drops with your Roaches, Lings and Queens (and Crawlers). ->Some Units such as Hydras, Roaches and Ultras NEED creep to be really effective (Hydras are imo a ONLY ON CREEP Unit)
Build Hatcheries not only at Expansions (if you don't feel safe because of harrass).
Overlord Drop is KEY: ->Drop your Roaches into his Tanks. ->Drop your Banelings into his Marines or Workers. ->Get Island Expansions.
Infestors! ->Get them!
Burrow Upgrade ->You can defend an early Marine Tank push quite good with Burrow upgraded Roaches and Lings
Don't sacrifice your Units! ->Don't run Lings into his Base to harrass unless your sure there are no Tanks ->Don't Muta Harrass if they have to much antiair
Sacking an overlord really isn't that big of a deal. The information you get is well worth the 100 minerals and as Zerg you almost always have a preponderance of minerals.
In general vs mmm, try to get speedlings and banelings and engage in the open. You can try burrowing some banelings to be real annoying. I would also suggest getting maybe 5-7 hydras for the added dps.
vs early MM pushes, banelings are absolutely fantastic. If you run a ling onto their ramp and see more than 1 barracks, get banelings ASAP.
In the mid game getting lots of lings/roaches/hydras/infestors is great, because infestors can not only fungal lots of marines but they can also NP thors/tanks :D NP should be researched if they get any number of tanks at all, IMO. Also, just because they have some hellions, don't be afraid to get lings. Once your lings wrap around his guys, the hellions will kill lings much slower.
Not playing Zerg for a while, I can't help you too much. BUT as a Terran I can say what beats me (and I can't figure out how to deal with it).
The most important thing: Use your mobility to your advantage. Terran are extremely slow, so hit them where they are weak, not where they are strong. You can do more damage than they can.
First: I never go bio, so what beats me might not work here - but I suspect ling/bling would destroy any early bio army.
What beats me: 1) Early expand into ling roach (roach takes care of hellions, and tanks aren't good enough early on to stop this). 2) Fast tech to mutas after this. Use muta harass to secure your third - I can deal with mutas fine when I scout them; unfortunately how I deal with them is staying in my base. The only thing that beats mutas this early is marines+thor. If you medivac the thor you're likely to lose it in transit. Plus, even when I successfully attack, the mutas are in my base killing my scvs. Also, I can only defend two bases at that point, so I cannot secure my third, which puts you ahead. 3) Once you've secured your third, you can go in for the kill. Guardians, ultras and banelings will destroy everything at this point. If you get overlord speed and drop, you can do excellent doom drops, or just drop on top of lines. Without the range advantage even the greatest number of tanks just melt away to ultras. Ultras also pretty much kill everything on the ground with their incredible speed, attack rate, splash and damage bonus to armored. Plus, they are immune to everything, so terran won't be able to stop them. If they have a bunch of marines, just drop a few blings, but ultras should do the job for the rest. At this point, they could do a lot of things though - if they get BCs, then your ultras won't be good, but that's easy just get a few corruptors (very hard counter), and then morph them into brood lords once you cleaned up the bc mess. If they get a lot of vikings (which will help defend against drops), they won't have enough ground army so you can just walk in. But always remember - you are more mobile, so hit them where they are weakest, not strongest.
Hope that helps. Now if I see you in game, I won't stand a chance .
Oh, I forgot to mention infestors. They are awesome, get them. They counter bio, as well as thors and battlecruisers. Just make sure to supplement them with a proper army.
Infestors are worth it, just to cast a single Fungal Growth and delay his push long enough so that you can get your second or third spawn of Roaches or Speedlings out. Plus, all his marines will have less health. Also important is to push when he's on creep, and to push back only when his tanks begin unsieging. If he's slow pushing with tanks, go around.
^^Medivac is tier 2. Tier 3 are Thors and Battlecruisers.
Alot of the issue with zerg players and there apparent problems with fighting terran is they can't go toe to toe with the terran force they need to wait for a good open area to get a surround off or a very decent arc. As many have said spine crawlers are fantastic against Bio builds just ned 2-3 in the early to mid game and the rest of your time should be spent macroing like crazy and trying to get up as many bases while looking to poke in and run by some speed lings if he gets bold.
On July 16 2010 09:13 Blackalpha wrote: So here goes! Firstly and foremost I struggle against stimmed Marine/Marauder. Terran players seem to be able to get a sizeable force active into play within the first few minutes of the game, and when they push its devastatingly hard to hold up against
The first important thing is to keep looking at what's the Terran player is doing with overlords and a zergling in his ramp. You have to see this bio army coming.
When you scout the 2+ barracks, start making banelings (you should already have started speedlings in every case). A speedlings+banelings army destroys a Marauder+Marine army which is not 70pop+. Focus your micro on baneling, making them chasing the marines and never explode if they don't die, it's absolutly deadly.
If he keeps doing marine marauder medivac later in the game, add infestors & hydralisks. Keep doing baneling (don't forget their speed uppgrade). Fungal growth+banelings is a must have against a bio army.
On July 16 2010 09:13 Blackalpha wrote: Secondly, Scouting, I struggle to scout Terran without sacking Ovies, which I really hate to do (They give me a look that makes me feel really guilty when I send them in.) - Steve
Don't feel bad about this. You have to sacrifice an overlord if you don't see what he's doing. Adjust your overlord production considering this. 100 mineral to see his BO is a good trade.
EPT
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