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I'll respond to a couple of good points:
Agreed. Pro replays can be used simply for entertainment. And granted, replays can teach you about the game or teach you a build order, but the topic of discussion is "does that make you a better player?" I've already offered my opinion on that topic.
In fact, I think I'll modify my viewpoint somewhat. Replays (pro or otherwise) are probably insanely useful for a new player just for general knowledge. Knowing that it is possible to FF a ramp, etc... great, useful stuff. But... you can learn that in game too. But once you've got a solid knowledge of the game, pro replays are just.... watching somebody do something that looks straightforward and obvious to you, but when you try on your own... you can't. Why might that be? If you understand it so well? ...Because of all the invisible factors mentioned on page 1. Because you play different opponents... because.. screw it, read the OP.
I am somewhat hurt by the insinuations that I just watch replays regularly, while never practicing, while trying to duplicate builds exactly, while completely avoiding thinking about anything, and that if only I tried, I would suddenly grasp that power that is pro strategy. Come on, don't strawman me. I never said any of that. On the contrary, I'm pretty sure that everyone genuinely, actively tries to learn and apply concepts, tricks, "broad strokes", small things. It's not a matter of intention, it's a matter of success. They end up like this guy.
I guess I felt the same thing that the OP went through when phase two came up. Watched a shit ton of old matches and Day(9) religiously then went to apply everything I learned in placement matches... Welcome to gold league, retard.
And my favorite:
Its like all those idiots who watch sports and talk as if they were on the team "we shoulda played more D" blah blah blah, oh man that make me rage... rofl. Good luck every seeing that idiot on the field playing even though he knows the strats.
This made me laugh. This is exactly what I see when I look at the sc2 community. Everyone (including myself) is a "strat expert", but with drastically different results...
I think watching pro-replays provides the illusion that you understand. You understand in this abstract theoretical world that transfers incredibly poorly to reality. Because it's more complicated than you give it credit for. That's the real meat of the argument.
"Asking the pros why they did stuff": I would love to see more of this. Commentators do a good job of guessing and speculating, but I'm never confident I'm getting all the real important details. I'd love to see pros cast some of their own replays.
Lastly, the idea that you need to practice what you see... Agreed, of course. You see something cool in a build, and then you go and practice it until it shines. But I would ask: where is the credit due? Are you better because you practiced or better because the replay gave you an idea?
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On July 15 2010 07:24 Stagger Lee wrote:
Bad analogy. It is actually similar to "reading" and "reflecting on" said books. Do you really expect us to believe that you watched many of Day9's casts and that you didn't learn a single new thing??
Hardly.
Text tends to be descriptive, to convey exactly the concepts necessary for understanding. Observation (as in a replay) is far different and cares nothing for your understanding. Perhaps looking at the cover art is better? Oh well, the analogy is not important.
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I wouldn't rate day9 dailies as observation of replays. They are discussion about strategies and you see some cool techniques. I think day9 has a lot of useful input.
I personally feel it has given me insights as someone that started of in copper league and actually lost games there, working my way up to diamond during phase 1, I gotta say watching day9 had a big part in making that happen this fast. I could probably have done it myself eventually but it made me understand the game better faster as someone that only really played BW with friends for fun,
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Watching day 9 helped me understand more and expand my horizon when it comes to what is possible to do with builds and tactics. E.g. I had no clue ghosts could be used for decloaking dt:s until I watched a day 9 video since no one have done that in any game vs me.
I agree that on lower levels a lot of strats that are not used in higher level play does work (e.g. I have gotten killed twice now by 8 reaper rush, I don't think that would work on a plat level). I think that makes the game funnier to play, because you can learn a bunch of new strats outside of those you see in a day 9 video. Typically if I'm killed by something, I try it on the next guy and then if that guy defeats the strat, I learn from him. (Ye I do switch races to learn new strategies and counter strategies.)
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I really thought this whole thread would have withered and died by now. Most posts just seem to a rebuttal to the OP. There are different degrees of pro game analysis, some are more instructional like Bob Ross, some are more like William Alexander. Not every shoutcast/commentary is designed to be a Bob Ross instructional.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On July 15 2010 07:57 ToxNub wrote:
But once you've got a solid knowledge of the game, pro replays are just.... watching somebody do something that looks straightforward and obvious to you, but when you try on your own... you can't. Why might that be? If you understand it so well? ...Because of all the invisible factors mentioned on page 1. Because you play different opponents... because.. screw it, read the OP.
I absolutely disagree with this point. Not everyone is incapable of seeing a replay and copying it very closely and be able to win games with it. Am I going to try to write down the supply for each scv and marine? No, of course not. I'm going to see the order that the tech buildings come in, what their unit composition is, and what supply the first 2 or 3 buildings come in (rax/refinery/depot).
You're saying that after a certain point, pro reps are useless because you cannot execute what you see. Who are you to judge that? Many people, including myself, are perfectly capable of executing any build order and adapting to what my opponent does in game.
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On July 15 2010 02:20 ToxNub wrote:
It seems like the majority of players wholeheartedly believe that watching pro replays will magically transfer to them the powers of the players they are watching. I find this approach a little similar to tying books to your head and hoping to absorb information by diffusion.
Sorry, but this is one of the stupidest analogies I've come across. It doesn't even fit. Saying that watching the best players doesn't help is like saying it doesn't help a musician to listen to music or a novelist to read books.
Now you are right in saying that someone shouldn't expect to be a good player from just watching the pros, just as you can't expect to be a good movie director just by watching movies. But a great director would work hard on his work and thouroughly study what's already been done. It's the same with SC2. Practice is the most important, and watching the best players helps immensley. I've learned a ton from some of day9's dailies.
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On July 15 2010 02:45 HuK wrote:
well i think most players strive to become good not win, at least i hope. its quite ez if you want a good win percentage just to do strategies like (5rax/5warpgtae/mass speedling/roach) and all in. probably a donkey could make it to diamond league playing like this. I hope mos players play to become better and actually learn something strategy wise
True. It always depends on what kind of replay you study. Looking at replays with all-in cheesish strategies will tell you what to scout for and where. Like in where to look for that proxy pylon etc.
On the other hand there IS a lot to learn in terms of solid builds it just depends on the kind of player you're watching. I, for instance, watched a lot of Idras replays when I started out with zerg. Not because I thought him to be the best there is, but because he has a stable and reliable opening. Yes you die alot at the start because you aren't able to sync up everything like Idra does but the build focuses on the basics of zerg gameplay: how to get an expo going, how to keep your macro mechanic (queens) working - that kind of thing. Without those replays it would have taken me hours to figure out how important some of this stuff is on my own.
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Couple things to add.
1) Practicing is better then Any reps - however getting a good sense on What to practice and why is useful.. both of which you can get out of pro reps or streams.
2) Streams are far better then pro reps.
3) Commentated VoDs are better then pro reps
4) Pro reps give you different info then your own reps - when watching your own reps, you're looking to fill gaps in your game, and to see where you went wrong. Watching pro reps is for learning overarching strategies and getting a good sense of what works and what doesn't as well as seeing what "better micro" (then yours) can do.
Pros play about 3x (plus) more games then newbies, wouldn't it make sense to learn what they've already spent many hours learning already?
Lastly, the idea that you need to practice what you see... Agreed, of course. You see something cool in a build, and then you go and practice it until it shines. But I would ask: where is the credit due? Are you better because you practiced or better because the replay gave you an idea?
It's the combination that makes you better. if you were to practice 10hrs a day, that would make you better at X speed. If you were to watch reps 10hrs a day, you might have a deep understanding of the theory but implementation would be non existent, and you wouldn't be any 'better'.
The combination of the two however is much more efficient. "i've got problem with X matchup whine whine whine" Watch a couple pro reps, see what they did, practice a bunch, get better. It's the combination of seeing an effective strat done properly and then practicing it that make pro reps worth watching. If you're not watching pro reps and only learning from your own, you have no standard or bar with which to compare yourself to. How are you suppose to go far and be first when you don't know where the bar sits?
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well, OP. this is an opinion of your experiences with replays I guess.
replays are one of the most valuable assets for those who know what to look for. they can show you some key relative timings and other cool stuff like optimal building placements and/or transitions.
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EPT
