|
This post is likely to result in a fair bit of disagreement, considering the location. TL has long worshiped pro-gaming and its surrounding culture, so I don't expect to make many friends in this discussion.
Let me start by saying that I've watched a lot of replays during the SC2 beta, the majority of them very high level replays with commentary (day[9] and the like). Hundreds of them. And I have to say, they've been useless. I think that for the vast majority of players that this is a pointless exercise. Now before we get into a lengthy and derailing "You're doing it wrong" thread, I'll say that I'm more interested in the theory behind this than any specific personal applications... Next, I'll add the disclaimer that I fully believe replays to be valuable (but your own replays).
It seems like the majority of players wholeheartedly believe that watching pro replays will magically transfer to them the powers of the players they are watching. I find this approach a little similar to tying books to your head and hoping to absorb information by diffusion. There's a few reasons why this doesn't work:
1a. You're only able to see what they do, as opposed to seeing their underlying thought processes. What a pro does on the screen is miles away to what options he has considered, the subtle plans he is making. You only see what he does, you never necessarily see what he intended to do, what he decided against, what he was going to do, but changed his mind, what he could have done instead, or why he made those decisions. For example, a player might be going mass sentry to plan to perma-FF the ramp to his opponents natural, but gets attacked early by marauders. To the viewer, it might appear as if he was planning to fight marauders with sentries all along. This disconnect results in wrong conclusions.
1b. Why he did it is just as important as what he does. You look at the screen and see a void ray response to a marauder push, but for all you know, the VR was a response to his fast nat. For all you know, if is opponents specific composition was 2 marauders heavier, 15 seconds later, and if the positions were 9 and 3, he might have went a completely different tech tree. The decisions made in game are far too blackboxed to absorb from just observing external behaviour. You cannot learn to make those critical decisions by watching him make one response to one situation, because there are innumerable situations and innumerable responses, and exhaustively trying to discover his algorithm's behaviour by observing it case by case is insane.
2a. It's not representative of the games you and I play. I often watch replays where I laugh at how badly the pros seem to play. If I tried that build (even if I performed it perfectly), I would get annihilated. Some pro zerg player with no info on his terran opponent's main not getting anti-air by 10min? I think, well, I guess he's lucky his opponent didn't get banshees... Some protoss player who sees a 3 gate build and only makes 1 zealot 1 sentry in the first 5 minutes? 14 hatch 16 pool? No detection all game? WTF! Who gets away with this crap? I've had many more units at an earlier point in the game and died horribly.
2b. The reason for this situation is that much like poker, you need to tailor your play to your opponent. Playing the same way you would against a professional when you're against a noob is a certain defeat. Certain tactics have proven themselves too risky to engage in against a very strong player, and so pros rarely employ them. Hence, they also have to rarely defend against them; it's almost like they've forgotten about them... So ironically their builds are quite vulnerable to less than optimal strategy. If you and I try to get away with that stuff, we will farmed, pure and simple. And some of the strategies that are very effective against a complicated opponent will do poorly against a simple opponent. They're not useful for us, AND they open us up to attacks we don't know how to defend. Certainly they COULD defeat these sorts of things (were they aware it was a threat), but the point is that they don't need to, so we rarely see relevant clashes.
3. We lack the control to pull it off. Much of the builds you see revolve around surviving with the bare minimum until you can get either tech or an expo. Most of us don't have the micro to manage this sort of thing. And it's usually not the thing you can fudge. The build very well may depend on this minimum. I noticed this when I was experimenting with phoenix builds. I couldn't seem to get phoenixes out fast enough because I was always forced to produce more gateway units than say Nony, just to prevent myself from dying. This in turn slowed down my stargate, and the phoenixes arrived too late to be effective, essentially defeating the entire build. I think that people assume that how well a build performs is linearly proportional to how well you execute, but I think in a lot of ways a very small change can make or breka it. 1 minute late, 3 seconds slower on a cast, and the whole build changes from godly to garbage.
4. You don't necessarily notice these subtle details. Maybe there were 2 of a particular unit in a particular position that to you appeared completely tangential to his primary focus, and yet they are utterly critical. The difference between a stalker by the nexus for a reaper rush or a zealot at the ramp. If the reaper rush never comes, it's often hard to see the point of this. The pro is accounting for a variety of situations that never happen. But since they don't happen, you never quite can understand why he chose to make those little decisions, and they escape you entirely. So when those situations arise in your games, you lack the necessary preparation. If you're like me, you'll watch a replay and see something and go "wow, look how nicely everything lines up. Player A does something, player B has exactly what he needs at the right position at the right time." Over and over. This isn't coincidence. You wonder why a pro never dies to the first push, he's always ready for the drop, he has a collossus just as the marine push comes... It's so orderly. My games are utter chaos. Holy crap, where did he get that from? How did he get a pylon in my base? ...The devil is in the details.
5. It's hard to see where you are making mistakes, how your build differs. I often watch replays where I look at his build and say .. "whoa... that's my build". And watch him steamroll over some composition. Then I go back to the game, execute the same thing, fight the same composition, and I lose horribly. I find this especially prevalent in protoss mirror matches. I have this terrible condition where if I go robotics, and he goes gateways, I lose. And if I go gateways and he goes robotics, I lose too. My woes aside, it's that sort of double standard that I see in pro games all the time. Avoiding the counter issue altogether, it feels like their skill almost has nothing to do with unit choice. It's as if you could pick a build at random from a hat and they could make it work. What are you doing different? Who knows.
Some might suggest that new players watch gold or silver level replays, and there might be more value in those, but I still think that several of my criticisms still apply to those too. Anyway, I don't mean to suggest that there is NOTHING that can be gained from pro replays, but I hope that was a reasonably comprehendable rant about why I think the focus on what so and so did in game 3 of the HDH finals is rather irrelevant.
|
Hm, I feel that your argument relies on people not thinking when watching pro reps. Afaik, most people who advocate watching pro reps also say that it's important to understand why they are doing what they do.
|
Adult education occurs from two sources, teachers and fellow students. Which is different than the child education model, where the teacher knows all and imparts the knowledge on students.
So, to learn to play requires watching pros, watching people of different skill levels and practice of course. IF you're not doing all these, you're not maximizing your learning.
Also, see out the trappings of learning from pros and experts via collin powell by googling it.
|
Certainly at this point in time watching the pro´s is not as useful as it may seem as they don´t have great strategical play themselves yet. But watching them can be helpful in getting buildorders, unit counters and the like. Playing and improving your mechanics is offcourse much more important to improve. Many people don´t purely watch replays for improving themselves though but for fun as well.
Watching a replay is also much more relaxed, whereas playing yourself requires a stable connection and basically no interruptions while playing which is why i watch more replays then I should probably.
|
To begin you might be happier with some more explanatory casters such as husky. www.youtube.com/users/mahkstarcraft is alot less popular but is excellent at explaining behind the scenes what is going on.
I think that you make alot of good points. There are many things you cannot learn from replays and your point that there are some things you DONT want to learn from pro replays if your not skilled enough is well made. However there is quite a bit you CAN learn from replays including build orders, how to defend against specific tactics, when to expand, good micro tactics etc. These things should not be overlooked, but I would definitely agree there is only so much to learn from replays before experience becomes necessary.
|
I sort of agree, the best way to learn Starcraft is to actually sit down and analyze games with Progamers, but few people would have that opportunity.
Therefore, the next best thing is to watch the replays and try to figure it out yourself.
|
I feel its one of those 1:10 ratios. Watch 1 pro replay for your 10 of your own(completely arbitrary number but you get the idea...alot to a little). But I whole-heartedly agree to this viewpoint thought, kudos for posting.
Pro replays are great for some sort of direction but yeah, you wont be any better analyzing subtleties that are way out of your league
Personally, I feel like this is the case if you want to get better and compete. I watch pro replays for entertainment.
|
You just need a well-rounded approach is all. I played SC since vanilla and replays didn't exist until 1.08. That meant that for the first 2+ years of the game, almost all the players in the world had no way to watch or learn from the very best. The first time I watched a vod in the 1.07 era (game-q =] ) was a game-changing experience for me. Before that, literally every single BO I did, every single strat I tried, I had to make up myself from trial and error. And I was doing a lot of silly stuff. For example my standard open against terran was 2 zealots + 1 goon rush, hit the wall-in try to kill an scv or 2, follow up with DT rush, try to kill the depot and maybe a few scvs, while expanding to another main, then do 2 base carriers lol. And what's funny is that it worked 90% of the time because most terrans had no idea how to use vultures properly. The first time I watched IntoTheRain play PvT I was like 'Holy shit I'm doing it ALL WRONG!' There was a key point before 1.08 where I could watch VODs but most people on bnet had no idea what VODs were, and during that time of me learning from the pro's I went from a nobody to a pretty high level player within like a month. It was a HUGE advantage until 1.08 came out, and then everybody started making and watching replays, and then the entire community got good at SC within a few months. It was an incredible difference because it was the first time that standard build orders and counters became known to the masses.
Watching pros play SC is like watching pros play golf. No you're not going to join the PGA just by sitting on the couch watching. But if you can see what it looks like when a pro swings his club you're going to have a huge advantage over somebody else who never has, and has just been given a bag of clubs and told 'hit this little white ball into that hole over there 400 yards away' and then left to figure out how all by himself.
|
well i think most players strive to become good not win, at least i hope. its quite ez if you want a good win percentage just to do strategies like (5rax/5warpgtae/mass speedling/roach) and all in. probably a donkey could make it to diamond league playing like this. I hope mos players play to become better and actually learn something strategy wise
|
Very well written article. I have to say that there is a lot that can be gained from watching replays, professional or your own; but those gains are vastly different.
There have been plenty of times where I am experimenting with some new build or unit composition (and it doesn't appear to be working for me) then I see a replay of MorroW doing the exact same thing and I don't say to myself "hey he did the exact same thing and it worked, must be because he's gosu" I say "good, at least I understand the game well enough to design a solid composition" and then immediately begin refining my build further.
I watch pro replays to learn about the game, I watch my replays to improve my game. I can see TLO play and notice "oh wow, I can defend some early aggression with a bunker and two marines just as well as with 4 marines and no bunker...neat" and make a similar change to my early game (effectively saving 100 minerals and 2 food) in a particular situation. Then I can watch my own replays and say "wow, I have about 300 minerals after defending that push, and my opponent is licking their wounds/macroing up, maybe I can get away with salvaging that bunker and expand"
|
Personally I watch pro replays for the entertainment value. When I first started playing I would try tricky builds and get absolutley crushed. I eventually found a safe build that worked for me that protected against cheeses and allowed me to work on my macro. Just playing safe increased my win rate quite a bit (thanks Trump).
I have picked up some awesome things from pro play that I can add on to my normal build such as late reaper scouting so I don't think pro replays are totally useless. The game is still new so maybe we haven't seen "Standard Play" yet.
As the game evolves and my skill level increases I think watching pro play will become even more important
|
I don't know about you, but I was too Young to Really get Into the BW competitive scene when it was in its heyday, but I got Really attached to SC2, and wanted to learn the build orders that would make me a competitive player. I read about 14 base 15 hatch and the like, and tried them out in BW on ICCUP and got wtfpwnt. I didn't understand basic terminology like what a natural was, or what APM meant.
Until I watched some pro-game commentaries by HDstarcraft and Husky.
That made me figure out what the terms meant, what aspects of the game I should be focusing on, and how I should go about building my army (to counter my opponents one). When SC2 Beta released, I tried out these new patterns in my building process, and met with success. I went from Silver league to platinum (before diamond was released) in a week, and I felt confident in my abilities to learn from my mistakes because I knew what to look for when watching my own replays after I lost a game.
I also watched 1st person POV's with pro-gamers (both BW and SC2), and realized that I had to be constantly aware of everything that was going on around my base and the map, and not to keep my view in one place too long, creating tunnel vision.
I mean, there are tons of things that watching a pro-gamer compete can tell you. I would be completely lost and probably resorting to money-money maps if I hadn't watched these games.
|
The most important thing in my opinion is that pros play differently from the newbs. They are more predictable whereas the newbs are very unpredictable and theres different techniques to handling that.
|
On July 15 2010 02:20 ToxNub wrote:
2b. The reason for this situation is that much like poker, you need to tailor your play to your opponent.
I think this is the best part of your article, I very much agree with it. It's true that pro-gamer replays can be over-rated, exactly the same way that many poker amateurs will watch WSOP (World Series of Poker) on TV and try to apply their techniques in a live game... such as, going all in on the bubble thinking that everyone will fold... LOL
|
Pro replays had me winning games my first days of beta. Sure no noob is going to be able to match the micro or macro of a pro just by looking at a replay that's something one must learn for them-self.
However pro replays did offer me great strategies. This is where I learned about a 4 gate, baneling bust, 1/1/1 terran, ghost mech, how to properly use infestors, thor ships etc....Still you must learn to execute these builds/strategies on your own terms but do replays help? Heck yes they do and a great deal too.
You can't learn calculus just by watching the teacher do it you have to do it too. Starcraft is no different than this.
|
Seems to me that you have a problem with learning from one replay. Obviously if you watch many replays on the same map for the same match up these little subtleties that were invisible to you in the first replay will start to become clear.
In part, being good at starcraft = being consistent. Thus, you can reasonably assume that the variations in a game are from a specific thing the player saw.
You also said that SC is like poker: you need to accommodate for your opponent. I think that is a secondary consideration. First and foremost, you are up against a race. The player's potential is limited by the race. Thus, if you play to beat the race, you will beat the player.
(The race's potential is limited by the player as well, but players are fickle and race is constant.)
|
the only problem I see with people watching PRO replays is the fact some players can't differentiate sublety in play that doesn't apply to their level.
to be more clear, something along the lines of building canceling. if you see a pro start a robo let it get scouted cancel and add another gateway or whatever, people will think WOW that's a good trick, I will do that!
But in reality that will just hurt most players play as building cancelling and the likes just aren't worth doing at the gold type levels (hell even diamond for the most part.) People fail to realize these PROS are playing other PROS and not everything will translate to their personal ladder games and help them improve their own game.
I know I had this problem when starting war3 a long time ago, I kept watching pro replays but they didn't help me as much because they didn't accurately depict the type of scenarios I would experience on ladder. So if you watch replays at face value of pros it's really not worth it, but if you watch to get a standard build, or general idea and understand the 'why' I see no harm in watching PROs.
|
infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Seems rather shortsighted to me. Of course replays will be less valuable than being in the player's head but there are lots of things I can learn from watching relays of high level players. Your arguments only hold if the viewer is mindlessly watching the units move and is not applying his own experiences to the replay.
|
You watched hundreds of replays, but how many games did you actually play? You're not going to become a god by watching someone else play, but watching pros is a great way to improve (not create, improve) your game.
|
I'd have to disagree with most of what the OP said. Although there is merit in the argument that you don't learn anything from pro games, its the same with all activities. People might not be able to learn to be pro just by watching pros, but thats not how the pros became pros. They became that way through hard work, and understanding. The key thing to get out of pro replays is to either to try and emulate their style, or get good build orders from them. All the little things they do are worth while, and then you have to try them in your own game, and see how it affects your game play.
Maybe some builds work for pros but not for you, and you have to be self-critical and figure out why. Maybe its because the 'noobs' you're playing against just don't exhibit the same pattern as pros, but that doesn't mean you can't adapt your game to their play. You need to be able to react to different situations! It is a strategy game. I find watch pro replays helps my game out tremendously. They do things that I would never be willing to try because I think it would fail horribly, but they can pull it off and I'm inspired to try it out.
And to address the point about the game being like poker, its true, except that the pros haven't forgotten about the other strats out there. It just that, like in poker they can force their opponents hand. They don't have to prepare for other strats because they just won't happen, and if they do they will just automatically win. Day9 talked about this issue alot, where lower level players don't realize that they don't need to prepare for everything, because the BO/strat they use forces their opponent to react accordingly otherwise they'll just lose right away.
|
I think the knowledge attained from watching replays is gained more quickly than just watching your own. I remember playing my first few games of beta and not knowing wtf was going on. Builds were slow/not efficient. I could have worked my way through my own replays but instead, you can save time, watch a pro replay with some good commentary and learn a lot more.
|
Playing random long enough to at least learn standard play (12-gate-18core, 14 hatch 15 pool, 3rax/1-1-1) and get a feel for the units is probably the best thing you can do.
I see a lot of players give up wins they could have against me and I genuinely think its because they are improperly estimating that my force could beat theirs.
And it also helps your game sense a lot.
|
And I have to say, they've been useless.
No way. They've helped you immensely whether you realize it or not. I know from watching Idra play, and hearing day[9]'s analysis that I have improved SIGNIFICANTLY in my zerg play.
Basically, you take all the hard work and tests and analysis they do, and you get it for free. Obviously you dont know the game as well as them, but you DEFINITELY learn from it and benefit.
Saying its useless to watch pros play is just wrong.
|
infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
1 and 2 can be solved by thinking, 3 is false since your opponent should have the same level of mechanics as you. 4 can be solved with experience and 5 shows that your mechanics is inferior to your opponents. You can't expect to magically become better with every replay you watch. You gotta put some effort in it.
|
"If you want to learn to swim jump into the water. On dry land no frame of mind is ever going to help you"
-Bruce Lee
|
Was rank 67 on the global Red Alert 3 ladder and I more or less agree with the OP.
Massing games in a thoughtful manner is far superior to mass watching pro replays, theorycrafting, or anything else you might do.
Watch pro replays here and there to supplement your play time. If you're spending more than 1/3rd of your time watching pros play, you're doing it wrong.
|
I have to say I agree with you to a point. I've run into a wall in the ladder, I went from Bronze to platinum since starting with no prior competative RTS gameplay at all (I played single player WC3)
The problem I now face is that I KNOW what I want to do I KNOW how to do it (from watching the replay) and in the game, when it's crunch time, my head says do it, but my hand does not, and I lose miserably.
So watching replays has helped me, to an extent, but now i've backed off the replays and im just playing more to fix mechanics. A good mix is what's needed, imo.
|
I think greed, either as a concept or as an actual play is very misunderstood at low levels. There's no such thing as fast expanding, maybe there's some turtle and tech but you never would try to pull a fast expand when everyone is essentially doing one base timing attacks (even without any idea that what they're doing may resemble a timing attack). Standard play... isn't when you're dealing with low ranking players.
I guess I felt the same thing that the OP went through when phase two came up. Watched a shit ton of old matches and Day(9) religiously then went to apply everything I learned in placement matches... Welcome to gold league, retard.
If there's any saving grace to that situation, it's that I get constant practice against decently executed cheeses all the time now. I could keep practicing that or I could just play 2-gate aggression all the way back to upper plat again.
|
I think that watching pro replays gives you good, broad ideas, but watching your own replays is a great way to actually improve. I watch every single replay from every game, win or lose. It makes a big difference; it allows you to find little mistakes in each and every game.
|
There's a variety of ways to watch pro replays. For the most part I watch Day9, Husky, and HD (my 3 favorites) for entertainment, not to learn. But even just watching those games DOES broaden your perspective on how to react in a given situation. Watching full view commentated replays will NOT teach you HOW to play the game but it can certainly expand your understanding of the game.
A strategy that I have recently adopted has been to download the actual replays and watch them with only the vision of one player at a time so I can see what they see as they see it and follow their actions and decisions. In this case I constantly consider in my head what I would be doing next in their situation.
That said, there is still no substitute for practice. I also watch my own replays and count my mistakes so I can fix them, but even watching your own replays has limited use as nothing but hands on experience can develop the solid, calm, and thorough mentality that all pro's have. For example... in my replays I constantly find moments in the game where I should have been producing SCVs or building SDs to prevent supply block despite having decided on an excellent unit composition and placement... keeping track of that many things in my head doesn't come easily to me yet although it is improving... but seeing that I have that problem in a replay doesn't help me fix it... only practice can acclimate a player to preventing these types of errors.
|
Watching pros is one aspect of training for starcraft. You don't just watch a reply and make vast assumptions about mindsets. You also play a lot, watch your own replays, and ASK the pros why they did X or Y and for tips from them. And even if you wonder why player X did Y you are thinking about strats in depth so you are less likely to be in game and wondering what they are doing and you can spend less time and brain power on that and devout it to mechanics, implementing the strat, micro, macro, other gameplay flaws, etc.
Also of course pro game style is different than noobs, and Asia vs. US etc etc etc. But if you train to fight noobs you will always be a noob. If you train to play like White-Ra then you could one day become White-Ra. This is why I don't do BS cheese b/c it doesn't make me better. I try to play for macro games in order to train myself for more stages of the game and improve my mechanics. Strategy can be taught to a large degree but if you can't implement it then its worthless. Its like all those idiots who watch sports and talk as if they were on the team "we shoulda played more D" blah blah blah, oh man that make me rage... rofl. Good luck every seeing that idiot on the field playing even though he knows the strats.
-Knowledge (Strat, Tactics, Timing, Opponent, Trends, etc)
-Physical Ability (APM, micro, macro, reaction speed, endurance)
-Mental (Keeping cool and not letting rage make you make in game mistakes. Rage is good as long as you don't throw away game b/c of it).
-Luck (Minimal but does have impact and can win games)
|
Remember, you should NEVER expect that watching pro matches will improve your skill.
I rather wonder if someone gets better by watching lots replays.
I dont mean that replays are useless, but first you should played a lot and second you should know detailed what you are looking for. Just wondering why you lose wouldnt help to find the difference what really mattered in THAT match because tactics are easy to execute, but recognizing the right timing is not easy as many think. In addition, unit control and expand timing are also important stuff.
I personally watch these replays 80% for entertainment, and 20 % for looking for new interesting tactics.
One thing i hate most from commentated replays like from husky or HD (no offence to both commentators, they are awesome =) ) is that you hardly get sight from one person. You see everything in replays and get every action, but if you play, it looks different.
Therefore VOD should be used occasionally to be entertained and inspired. but not nessarily to learn!
|
Pro replays aren't useless, but watching YOUR OWN replays is generally a far more useful learning experience. You'll notice your own mistakes very easily, which will allow you to focus on fixing them, open up new opportunities and strategies and ways of playing you wouldn't ever otherwise notice, and so on. You'll get to see what are the weak spots of your tactics before you even have them pointed out to you by your opponents, and you'll find ways to breach defenses you previously thought were impregnable.
If you want to learn from replays, start with your own - and then compare these to what the pros do. It'll work a lot better than just watching every game of TLO or Idra.
|
I think watching day9 helps but it doesn't make you pro. But just watching replays does not help as much. Well maybe just to see build orders that do work and are smooth and clean. which is in fact important in low level play, if you just have ONE decent build you mimic and decent macro, micro that will take you to gold league np, this replays can help you with. Also there is comfort seeing mech being able to get beaten etc.
I really like what day9 says about taking something you like from a pro replay and put it into your own play. Like an opening, or a transition if your opponent is doing something or does a response to something you did. I also think neat micro tricks or tactics like drops can be educational.
|
Pros are pros for a reason.. no noob is ever gonna beat a pro simply because he is a noob.. the pros understand the game on a different level and thats why when we watch them play were wtfd. We look at it and say wow he would get crushed by a standard build when in reality we have no idea that even an exceptional player has zero chance of winning the game. Watching pros play is pointless if ur trying to copy their play style, and thinking u can do better just because it looks like u can beat him from a replay? Well that's just insane...
|
On July 15 2010 02:45 HuK wrote:
well i think most players strive to become good not win, at least i hope. its quite ez if you want a good win percentage just to do strategies like (5rax/5warpgtae/mass speedling/roach) and all in. probably a donkey could make it to diamond league playing like this. I hope mos players play to become better and actually learn something strategy wise
The current battlenet is filled with one-strat monkeys. That's why we need practice partners. Playing in the league games, is too linear. They cheese, they push hard when they get X unit, or they sit at their base.
There is no dance, no reactions. I got unlucky in my placement matches (bugged fluo vga, pinged out, and had to quit another) and im really suffering the game experience of the gold level.
Is just sad not being able to focus on the nice things, because on the other side they are trying to end the game with 50 banelings.
You don't loose, but they do hinder your learning process.
|
I disagree, I think watching pro replays is very valuable.
The problem sounds to me like you're trying to copy a player entirely - and that is obviously difficult. You mention that if a single variable is off in a game, it could completely change the player's build. This is true, but it's not really relevant. When I watch pro games, I just try to pick up general builds, tips, and the like. I've been improving very rapidly and I have no doubt some of it is from watching pro games.
I sort of watch the videos just to expand my knowledge base on the game, I try all the builds and then adapt them to my playstyle and make them my own. You can do the same.
|
You could have a point but that sentence summarizes well your point of view:
It seems like the majority of players wholeheartedly believe that watching pro replays will magically transfer to them the powers of the players they are watching.
Sorry, but this kind of baseless and exagerated statement is not acceptable. You seem to be underestimating the players' ability to think for themselves and analyse information in a constructive way. Any knowledgeable and capable player knows what to learn from replays, while considering his own experience.
|
This argument does seem to make sense. But for me, i watch the pro's play not always to make myself better but for pure entertainment. I love the commentators funny comments and pros seems to keep the game interesting. Makes me want to play more sometimes ha 
|
ToxNumb:
You said "It seems like the majority of players wholeheartedly believe that watching pro replays will magically transfer to them the powers of the players they are watching. I find this approach a little similar to tying books to your head and hoping to absorb information by diffusion."
Bad analogy. It is actually similar to "reading" and "reflecting on" said books. Do you really expect us to believe that you watched many of Day9's casts and that you didn't learn a single new thing??
|
I'll respond to a couple of good points:
Agreed. Pro replays can be used simply for entertainment. And granted, replays can teach you about the game or teach you a build order, but the topic of discussion is "does that make you a better player?" I've already offered my opinion on that topic.
In fact, I think I'll modify my viewpoint somewhat. Replays (pro or otherwise) are probably insanely useful for a new player just for general knowledge. Knowing that it is possible to FF a ramp, etc... great, useful stuff. But... you can learn that in game too. But once you've got a solid knowledge of the game, pro replays are just.... watching somebody do something that looks straightforward and obvious to you, but when you try on your own... you can't. Why might that be? If you understand it so well? ...Because of all the invisible factors mentioned on page 1. Because you play different opponents... because.. screw it, read the OP.
I am somewhat hurt by the insinuations that I just watch replays regularly, while never practicing, while trying to duplicate builds exactly, while completely avoiding thinking about anything, and that if only I tried, I would suddenly grasp that power that is pro strategy. Come on, don't strawman me. I never said any of that. On the contrary, I'm pretty sure that everyone genuinely, actively tries to learn and apply concepts, tricks, "broad strokes", small things. It's not a matter of intention, it's a matter of success. They end up like this guy.
I guess I felt the same thing that the OP went through when phase two came up. Watched a shit ton of old matches and Day(9) religiously then went to apply everything I learned in placement matches... Welcome to gold league, retard.
And my favorite:
Its like all those idiots who watch sports and talk as if they were on the team "we shoulda played more D" blah blah blah, oh man that make me rage... rofl. Good luck every seeing that idiot on the field playing even though he knows the strats.
This made me laugh. This is exactly what I see when I look at the sc2 community. Everyone (including myself) is a "strat expert", but with drastically different results...
I think watching pro-replays provides the illusion that you understand. You understand in this abstract theoretical world that transfers incredibly poorly to reality. Because it's more complicated than you give it credit for. That's the real meat of the argument.
"Asking the pros why they did stuff": I would love to see more of this. Commentators do a good job of guessing and speculating, but I'm never confident I'm getting all the real important details. I'd love to see pros cast some of their own replays.
Lastly, the idea that you need to practice what you see... Agreed, of course. You see something cool in a build, and then you go and practice it until it shines. But I would ask: where is the credit due? Are you better because you practiced or better because the replay gave you an idea?
|
On July 15 2010 07:24 Stagger Lee wrote:
Bad analogy. It is actually similar to "reading" and "reflecting on" said books. Do you really expect us to believe that you watched many of Day9's casts and that you didn't learn a single new thing??
Hardly.
Text tends to be descriptive, to convey exactly the concepts necessary for understanding. Observation (as in a replay) is far different and cares nothing for your understanding. Perhaps looking at the cover art is better? Oh well, the analogy is not important.
|
I wouldn't rate day9 dailies as observation of replays. They are discussion about strategies and you see some cool techniques. I think day9 has a lot of useful input.
I personally feel it has given me insights as someone that started of in copper league and actually lost games there, working my way up to diamond during phase 1, I gotta say watching day9 had a big part in making that happen this fast. I could probably have done it myself eventually but it made me understand the game better faster as someone that only really played BW with friends for fun,
|
Watching day 9 helped me understand more and expand my horizon when it comes to what is possible to do with builds and tactics. E.g. I had no clue ghosts could be used for decloaking dt:s until I watched a day 9 video since no one have done that in any game vs me.
I agree that on lower levels a lot of strats that are not used in higher level play does work (e.g. I have gotten killed twice now by 8 reaper rush, I don't think that would work on a plat level). I think that makes the game funnier to play, because you can learn a bunch of new strats outside of those you see in a day 9 video. Typically if I'm killed by something, I try it on the next guy and then if that guy defeats the strat, I learn from him. (Ye I do switch races to learn new strategies and counter strategies.)
|
I really thought this whole thread would have withered and died by now. Most posts just seem to a rebuttal to the OP. There are different degrees of pro game analysis, some are more instructional like Bob Ross, some are more like William Alexander. Not every shoutcast/commentary is designed to be a Bob Ross instructional.
|
infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On July 15 2010 07:57 ToxNub wrote:
But once you've got a solid knowledge of the game, pro replays are just.... watching somebody do something that looks straightforward and obvious to you, but when you try on your own... you can't. Why might that be? If you understand it so well? ...Because of all the invisible factors mentioned on page 1. Because you play different opponents... because.. screw it, read the OP.
I absolutely disagree with this point. Not everyone is incapable of seeing a replay and copying it very closely and be able to win games with it. Am I going to try to write down the supply for each scv and marine? No, of course not. I'm going to see the order that the tech buildings come in, what their unit composition is, and what supply the first 2 or 3 buildings come in (rax/refinery/depot).
You're saying that after a certain point, pro reps are useless because you cannot execute what you see. Who are you to judge that? Many people, including myself, are perfectly capable of executing any build order and adapting to what my opponent does in game.
|
On July 15 2010 02:20 ToxNub wrote:
It seems like the majority of players wholeheartedly believe that watching pro replays will magically transfer to them the powers of the players they are watching. I find this approach a little similar to tying books to your head and hoping to absorb information by diffusion.
Sorry, but this is one of the stupidest analogies I've come across. It doesn't even fit. Saying that watching the best players doesn't help is like saying it doesn't help a musician to listen to music or a novelist to read books.
Now you are right in saying that someone shouldn't expect to be a good player from just watching the pros, just as you can't expect to be a good movie director just by watching movies. But a great director would work hard on his work and thouroughly study what's already been done. It's the same with SC2. Practice is the most important, and watching the best players helps immensley. I've learned a ton from some of day9's dailies.
|
On July 15 2010 02:45 HuK wrote:
well i think most players strive to become good not win, at least i hope. its quite ez if you want a good win percentage just to do strategies like (5rax/5warpgtae/mass speedling/roach) and all in. probably a donkey could make it to diamond league playing like this. I hope mos players play to become better and actually learn something strategy wise
True. It always depends on what kind of replay you study. Looking at replays with all-in cheesish strategies will tell you what to scout for and where. Like in where to look for that proxy pylon etc.
On the other hand there IS a lot to learn in terms of solid builds it just depends on the kind of player you're watching. I, for instance, watched a lot of Idras replays when I started out with zerg. Not because I thought him to be the best there is, but because he has a stable and reliable opening. Yes you die alot at the start because you aren't able to sync up everything like Idra does but the build focuses on the basics of zerg gameplay: how to get an expo going, how to keep your macro mechanic (queens) working - that kind of thing. Without those replays it would have taken me hours to figure out how important some of this stuff is on my own.
|
Couple things to add.
1) Practicing is better then Any reps - however getting a good sense on What to practice and why is useful.. both of which you can get out of pro reps or streams.
2) Streams are far better then pro reps.
3) Commentated VoDs are better then pro reps
4) Pro reps give you different info then your own reps - when watching your own reps, you're looking to fill gaps in your game, and to see where you went wrong. Watching pro reps is for learning overarching strategies and getting a good sense of what works and what doesn't as well as seeing what "better micro" (then yours) can do.
Pros play about 3x (plus) more games then newbies, wouldn't it make sense to learn what they've already spent many hours learning already?
Lastly, the idea that you need to practice what you see... Agreed, of course. You see something cool in a build, and then you go and practice it until it shines. But I would ask: where is the credit due? Are you better because you practiced or better because the replay gave you an idea?
It's the combination that makes you better. if you were to practice 10hrs a day, that would make you better at X speed. If you were to watch reps 10hrs a day, you might have a deep understanding of the theory but implementation would be non existent, and you wouldn't be any 'better'.
The combination of the two however is much more efficient. "i've got problem with X matchup whine whine whine" Watch a couple pro reps, see what they did, practice a bunch, get better. It's the combination of seeing an effective strat done properly and then practicing it that make pro reps worth watching. If you're not watching pro reps and only learning from your own, you have no standard or bar with which to compare yourself to. How are you suppose to go far and be first when you don't know where the bar sits?
|
well, OP. this is an opinion of your experiences with replays I guess.
replays are one of the most valuable assets for those who know what to look for. they can show you some key relative timings and other cool stuff like optimal building placements and/or transitions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
