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Patrol Micro to Avoid Clumping
The aim of this thread is to introduce a form of patrol micro to avoid units clumping. I haven’t read about it in the forums or the TL wiki before, but I thought it would be something that’s worth discussing.
Clumping
Firstly, I believe it would behoove me to define clumping in the context of StarCraft(SC). Essentially a clump is a cluster of tightly packed units which minimizes the surface area of said units. Clumping occurs naturally in SCii due to improved path finding and AI as suggested by sluggaslamoo ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=132171). There are instances in which it would benefit a player to clump their units. For example: a clustered ranged army (e.g. terran bio-ball) is more effective against melee army (e.g. zealots or zerglings) for the following reasons:
- Melee units cannot effectively surround units (i.e. have multiple units attacking a single unit)
- Units at the core of the clump can still shoot, whereas melee units will queue up. In other words the ranged army will be more effective because more of their units can attack at any given moment.
On the other hand clumping could also be detrimental to an army. One such example is a clustered army versus any unit which causes splash damage (e.g. templars, tanks, banelings). The reason is simply because a clustered army is so tightly packed that the splash damage from the aforementioned units will likely hit more targets than ideal. Having said that, I think we're good to discuss the meat of the thread...
Patrol Micro
It is known that if a unit is commanded to patrol a nearby position it would begin to move very rapidly between its current position and the patrol position, i.e. the units will enter an ‘epileptic seizure’ as described by Day[9].
And here’s a few example of such behavior by Husky,
+ Show Spoiler +
Now if a similar command is given to a control group of unit a fascinating unit behavior emerges. Instead of having epileptic seizures the units begin to draw themselves away from each other in what seems to be a random pattern, which effectively scatters or disperses them.
+ Show Spoiler +
Now, is there a practical application of this? Well to be honest I’m not sure… But I can think of a few scenarios on top of my head where it would be handy.
Typical clumped army
+ Show Spoiler +
Scattered army using the patrol micro
+ Show Spoiler +
Another interesting aspect of this technique is that you are able to do it while moving. Again, I’m not sure if there is any practical aspect to it, but it allows an army to scatter and clump on the move.
+ Show Spoiler +
To finish off, I did a few tests using zealots vs tanks in the Unit Tester by XGDragon (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124763).
+ Show Spoiler +15 Zealots(Clumped) vs 12 Tanks 15 Zealots(Scattered) vs 12 Tanks
Execution wise it's actually not hard at all, though doing the patrol micro on the move is a bit tricky because you have to patrol click a certain distance away from your units otherwise they'll still clump up. So I dunno… do you think we’ll see any of this in high level play or is it one of those funny things people do like making an overlord dance over your opponent’s hatchery.
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hmmmmmm
not sure what to say about that yet. interesting though. definitely has some promise.
edit: good post
edit2 (after seeing post count): great post - good job
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wow nice post! thumbs up, i want to test this out!
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Pretty neat, I bet it will be one of those things used in the future as the game gets those little perfections that makes it awesome.
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It definitely seems useful, very useful. Thanks for the suggestion.
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verry nice post. I think it might become a standart for easy unit spreading i find it verry usefull i'm defenitely gonna abuse it when beta comes back :o)
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This is just amazing. It seems like as people find out these little tricks, SCII will get closer and closer to the spectating value of Brood War. Maybe even surpass it? Who knows?
And I think this will be very useful once the pro players get good APM to manage their economy and micro units simultaneously. Late game, lots of core units have splash such as Siege Tanks, Infestor's Fungal Growth, Thors, Colossi, High Templars, and maybe a few others. This could help people who can execute this effectively close the gap to long range splash units.
It will just be a matter of time before people find more tricks like these and have enough hand speed to execute it while macroing. I think it would be exciting to see a pro SCII player to patrol micro their units in range of a Siege Tank, harass the economy, and pump units simultaneously.
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Units also attack whilst on patrol, so I doubt it will take away from attack moving, and if it has any advantages for bio vs banelings then I will definitely be using it as much as i can 
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I wonder if anyone could test this with a mixed army as you usually end-up having. Let's say zealots, stalkers and a couple of sentries.
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this has so much practical use its rediculous. Of course we'll see once the game goes back up how practical but units spread out vs clustered and how to manage those different scenarios is definitely gonna be one of many things that will determine the outcome in battle(as your example with zealots vs tanks clearly showed).
The bad thing about this is that it made me wanna play so much more, as if withdrawls werent bad enough already
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Hey thanks for putting this together. I found something out that may help out. I was experimenting with how mutalisks could remain spread out against Thors.
If you have a group of mutalisks already spread out, you can click far away (mini-map or otherwise) and they will remain in that formation and won't clump up at all, or only when they are close to where you clicked on the mini-map.
I haven't tested any ground units however, but it's something to look into as you don't have to worry about patrol commands and they can move into position and you can tell them to attack whenever.
Hopefully it will be something zergs can use to make thors very manageable :D
p.s. if i wasn't clear enough, you would aim to click past the enemy base to keep the units non-clumped for the attack (in the case of mutas)
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Thanks for your explanation but I'm sure If there's application for this.
Btw what's name of the map in the video?
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This could def be helpful, assuming it doesnt require too much focus to pull off (taking away from other important things). Could be great against emp, storm, fungal growth, the aoe stuff. And Def banelings as well as people right click through instead of attack move
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On June 25 2010 19:18 Wr4ith_Bl4d3 wrote:
do you think we’ll see any of this in high level play Yes, they are using it; that's why sometimes "epileptic seizures" also occur in these vods. Combined with magic boxes (which unfortunately are a bit smaller in SC2), it allows you to move small groups in sparse formation, without having to arrange the units individually.
Good post, well illustrated.
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This could be very helpful indeed to make your hydra's spread out a bit to start off with a big concave. Or in baneling-zergling situations. Thanks for finding this! Will definitely fiddle around with it once beta starts back up again =) .
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very interesting, I will definitely use this since my APM is so low
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This is interesting to know, but I don't think it's very useful. It'll take about the same amount of apm to just select a handful of your units and spread them manually, and gives you greater control over where they go rather than just semi-random spread. Grabbing 4-8 units and clicking right, and doing the same to 4-8 more and clicking left spreads them much better than using this patrol method.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Poll: Voodoo magic to make the game perform normally?It rocks, I will pwn noobs that don't know of these tricks. (124) 76% It sucks, units should behave like that on A-move. (29) 18% I don't have an opinion. (10) 6% 163 total votes Your vote: Voodoo magic to make the game perform normally? (Vote): It sucks, units should behave like that on A-move.
(Vote): It rocks, I will pwn noobs that don't know of these tricks.
(Vote): I don't have an opinion.
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Grabbing 4-8 units and clicking right, and doing the same to 4-8 more and clicking left spreads them much better than using this patrol method.
And when it's 20 units? or 30? or 50? At some point using the patrol micro is going to help spread out units more so than manually doing it. Plus the method you describes gives you 2 clumps of 4-8 units, not spread out units. So splash damage will still hit 4-8 units pretty consistently.
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You can achieve the same thing better by haveing one control group with everyone in and two additional with some in.
simply click group 2 -> left group 3 -> right group 1 -> forward attack!
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That's very well thought out, generally I used it to auto micro a probe to watch for drops or nydus. I think that while useful it'll prove to be a challenge when controlling a mixed army.
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On June 25 2010 22:52 Happy.fairytail wrote:
very interesting, I will definitely use this since my APM is so low
no no no, you should only do this if you can afford the apm to do it, thus you need a very high apm to pull this off , if you have low apm, its better to just a-move and macro.
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On June 25 2010 22:52 Happy.fairytail wrote:
very interesting, I will definitely use this since my APM is so low
Ditto for me. It should be useful.
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On June 25 2010 19:52 Whole wrote:
This is just amazing. It seems like as people find out these little tricks, SCII will get closer and closer to the spectating value of Brood War.
I completely agree; little things like this are really pushing StarCraft II into a better place. I mean, spectating aside, just little tricks like this are going to slowly but surely change the game. Imagine how many things like this were discovered in Brood War, and then remember how long Brood War has been out.. Now imagine how many possibilities we'll have with StarCraft II. It's exciting.
Great post. Always love seeing ideas like this.
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Haha, it's quite amusing how the Zealots move. xD
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its a interesting idea but doesnt seam usable it only takes affect after your units hit the first control point so its not useful for attacking and it doesnt spread them out enough to avoid all splash damage
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On June 25 2010 23:32 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +Grabbing 4-8 units and clicking right, and doing the same to 4-8 more and clicking left spreads them much better than using this patrol method. And when it's 20 units? or 30? or 50? At some point using the patrol micro is going to help spread out units more so than manually doing it. Plus the method you describes gives you 2 clumps of 4-8 units, not spread out units. So splash damage will still hit 4-8 units pretty consistently.
First off, it doesn't give you 2 clumps of units, it gives you a line or arc. Some of the units go left, some go right, and some stay in the middle. Patrol micro just gets you a more spread out clump, not a good attack arc.
If you have more units, you simply grab a larger chunk of them to spread out. If you have like 20-30 guys you grab 4-8 (25-33% of them). If you have 80 guys grab 20-30 at a time. A larger group already takes up more area naturally, spreading units doesn't change difficulty with a larger group, it actually gets easier, because chunks of units are easier to select. With the patrol micro, the units bounce off of each other and many in the back won't be able to do anything at all. Grabbing about one fourth to one third of your army and spreading them manually 2-3 times will be more effective than patrol, no matter the numbers, as your units will spread better, and therefore attack faster and better.
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nevermind, read rest of post
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Pretty nice, It seems pretty micro expensive
Who say there is no micro in starcraft 2 ? Not me 
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Very cool, those little spaces could potentially make a big difference.
Will try this out when the beta comes back
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On June 26 2010 00:14 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2010 23:32 Logo wrote:Grabbing 4-8 units and clicking right, and doing the same to 4-8 more and clicking left spreads them much better than using this patrol method. And when it's 20 units? or 30? or 50? At some point using the patrol micro is going to help spread out units more so than manually doing it. Plus the method you describes gives you 2 clumps of 4-8 units, not spread out units. So splash damage will still hit 4-8 units pretty consistently. First off, it doesn't give you 2 clumps of units, it gives you a line or arc. Some of the units go left, some go right, and some stay in the middle. Patrol micro just gets you a more spread out clump, not a good attack arc. If you have more units, you simply grab a larger chunk of them to spread out. If you have like 20-30 guys you grab 4-8 (25-33% of them). If you have 80 guys grab 20-30 at a time. A larger group already takes up more area naturally, spreading units doesn't change difficulty with a larger group, it actually gets easier, because chunks of units are easier to select. With the patrol micro, the units bounce off of each other and many in the back won't be able to do anything at all. Grabbing about one fourth to one third of your army and spreading them manually 2-3 times will be more effective than patrol, no matter the numbers, as your units will spread better, and therefore attack faster and better.
Yeah, but what you're talking about is a different goal (better arc) than what patrol micro is good for (mitigating splash).
Take Marines vs Banelings for example, especially something like a baneling drop. Your method means each baneling can hit a fair number of marines as they're in an arc/semi-clumped pattern. With patrol micro fewer marines will be hit by each baneling (assuming similar level of movement micro after the unit split). In marine vs baneling the arc or # of units firing doesn't matter nearly as much as the ability to split units.
Another situation is ling vs hellion. Having the lings be spread out can make them a lot more effective when approaching hellions while having separate clumps is good, but not as good.
Plus the two methods aren't mutually exclusive. You can patrol micro a clump to spread them out then use the magic box to move parts of the clump away from other parts (alternatively you can move apart, then patrol micro).
It may not be useful, it may be, calling it either way it hard without really trying stuff out in game. Either way it's clear that moving parts of a clump is NOT the same as using patrol micro. They both accomplish different things.
EDIT: Also here's a simple challenge. Take the same situation as the videos posted by the OP. Use your method of splitting and attack the tanks. Use that to prove that it's equal or more effective than the OP's unclumping method.
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On June 26 2010 00:30 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2010 00:14 Fyrewolf wrote:On June 25 2010 23:32 Logo wrote:Grabbing 4-8 units and clicking right, and doing the same to 4-8 more and clicking left spreads them much better than using this patrol method. And when it's 20 units? or 30? or 50? At some point using the patrol micro is going to help spread out units more so than manually doing it. Plus the method you describes gives you 2 clumps of 4-8 units, not spread out units. So splash damage will still hit 4-8 units pretty consistently. First off, it doesn't give you 2 clumps of units, it gives you a line or arc. Some of the units go left, some go right, and some stay in the middle. Patrol micro just gets you a more spread out clump, not a good attack arc. If you have more units, you simply grab a larger chunk of them to spread out. If you have like 20-30 guys you grab 4-8 (25-33% of them). If you have 80 guys grab 20-30 at a time. A larger group already takes up more area naturally, spreading units doesn't change difficulty with a larger group, it actually gets easier, because chunks of units are easier to select. With the patrol micro, the units bounce off of each other and many in the back won't be able to do anything at all. Grabbing about one fourth to one third of your army and spreading them manually 2-3 times will be more effective than patrol, no matter the numbers, as your units will spread better, and therefore attack faster and better. Yeah, but what you're talking about is a different goal (better arc) than what patrol micro is good for (mitigating splash). Take Marines vs Banelings for example, especially something like a baneling drop. Your method means each baneling can hit a fair number of marines as they're in an arc/semi-clumped pattern. With patrol micro fewer marines will be hit by each baneling (assuming similar level of movement micro after the unit split). In marine vs baneling the arc or # of units firing doesn't matter nearly as much as the ability to split units. Another situation is ling vs hellion. Having the lings be spread out can make them a lot more effective when approaching hellions while having separate clumps is good, but not as good. Plus the two methods aren't mutually exclusive. You can patrol micro a clump to spread them out then use the magic box to move parts of the clump away from other parts (alternatively you can move apart, then patrol micro). It may not be useful, it may be, calling it either way it hard without really trying stuff out in game. Either way it's clear that moving parts of a clump is NOT the same as using patrol micro. They both accomplish different things. EDIT: Also here's a simple challenge. Take the same situation as the videos posted by the OP. Use your method of splitting and attack the tanks. Use that to prove that it's equal or more effective than the OP's unclumping method.
I understand where you're coming from, but I feel that this method of spreading will be inferior to regular spreading (Magic Box is something else from SC1, related to Formation, not the regular select box). Regular spreading works for more than Arcs too. Vs Banelings, retreating is the only immediate option. If you have time to spread to mitigate damage, more power to you, but I'd rather retreat them behind other meatier units the regular way, since there isn't time for much else. Again with zerglings vs hellions, how much you want in clumps and how much you want spread is your choice. If the zerglings are in a line, it's not the same as a clump, and a line gets a fast wrap around surround.
My point is that you can split the units better the regular way than patrol micro. With Patrol, I see the units bouncing off each other and not advancing well, and poor positioning for attacking. I see this resulting in the force getting slaughtered in a actual game trying to use patrol micro, or at least, doing worse spazzing out in place than an army that is just as spread out from splash and ready to attack with all the units.
I don't have the unit tester downloaded, and I wouldn't attack tanks head on anyway, so I can't be one to do testing right now, but I think that regular spreading spreads them better than patrol spreading. And that's for Vs Splash, Attack Arcs, or Anything that you would want to spread for. I'm not advocating multiple clumps. I'm advocating a better spread than what you can get with patrol.
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I don't think the patrol vs. baneling idea works because patrolling units close enough to the banelings will attack them, which is counter to what you want them to do.
This micro might have some use, like quickly minimizing EMP damage for toss.
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Question - will units still do that even when being chased by units like banelings? Because patrol in SC1 would just make the units fire at what was near them, so if they were all clumped up running from banelings and patrol was used, wouldn't this just make them immediately stop where they were and fire on the banelings, similar to an attack command issue? Or will it actually cause them to still scatter?
EDIT: Didn't see poster above me already said the same thing 
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Great find. This will probably be most effective against seige tanks because of the long range on the tanks, the units will not automatically attack them and clump up again. Have you tried this with zerg units like roaches/lings? I am curious on how an equal supply of speed roaches can take on a seige tank line with this trick, considering many zergs are very frustrated with the current state of ZvT mech.
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On June 26 2010 02:58 xixecal wrote:
Great find. This will probably be most effective against seige tanks because of the long range on the tanks, the units will not automatically attack them and clump up again. Have you tried this with zerg units like roaches/lings? I am curious on how an equal supply of speed roaches can take on a seige tank line with this trick, considering many zergs are very frustrated with the current state of ZvT mech.
Well if units are hit by the tank they'll auto attack them even on patrol because it's reacting. Range is irrelevant I believe. Which is why for example in SC1 if a tank hits a goliath from far away, the goliath will start walking towards the tank to attack it.
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Awesome post! Very informative and well-explained
This looks like it's very useful against armies where you see spellcasters but know that you won't be able to snipe them in time...
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Nice post. It made me thinking..Why dont they just implement a button for group scattering?
We have a move, attack, hold (which is very similiar to stop), stop and patrol.
Why not this also?
I meant it would still require some micro for u to actually press this button.
It would definetely help protoss against EMP and not make all their units useless against a single ghost (and core terran army backin him up).
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On June 26 2010 03:07 Acidlineup wrote:
Nice post. It made me thinking..Why dont they just implement a button for group scattering?
We have a move, attack, hold (which is very similiar to stop), stop and patrol.
Why not this also?
I meant it would still require some micro for u to actually press this button.
It would definetely help protoss against EMP and not make all their units useless against a single ghost (and core terran army backin him up).
Would take away from micro immensely. Saying it still requires micro to click is kinda pointless. That's like saying, "I'm still microing by pushing one button, instead of trying to rapidly spread out my army with tons of clicks, etc."
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On June 26 2010 03:14 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2010 03:07 Acidlineup wrote:
Nice post. It made me thinking..Why dont they just implement a button for group scattering?
We have a move, attack, hold (which is very similiar to stop), stop and patrol.
Why not this also?
I meant it would still require some micro for u to actually press this button.
It would definetely help protoss against EMP and not make all their units useless against a single ghost (and core terran army backin him up). Would take away from micro immensely. Saying it still requires micro to click is kinda pointless. That's like saying, "I'm still microing by pushing one button, instead of trying to rapidly spread out my army with tons of clicks, etc."
Well, i didnt mean for them to make it SO easy, therefore i apologise for not being precise.
What i meant is for Blizz to implement a button that would allow u to scatter a group but to make it more efficiant if u manually scatter. that way we can have some advantage of group scattering button but also not so beneficial at high level play and IF u have awesome APM.
Now we can argue what is micro and how and what would ruin the game, but take a look at the queen mechanic for an example. They gave u the option of building a queen and have 4 larva extra for the cost of having to return screen to ur base and press the button and constantly be on a lookout for queens energy. Another option is for u to simply make and extra hatchery at ur base and not macro at all but at the cost of 150 minerals extra and one larva less per turn.
Same with as attack move command (is not efficient as focust fire manually),
Same as patrol button (is not efficient as unit micro by urself) etc.. etc. see my point?
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awsome, scattering ground units is great,
is this thing worksfor air units aswell?
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Very interesting. This definitely has some potential.
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This is awesome!
Never though patrol would be so useful...
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On June 25 2010 23:47 Madkipz wrote:
You can achieve the same thing better by haveing one control group with everyone in and two additional with some in.
simply click group 2 -> left group 3 -> right group 1 -> forward attack!
You would still have 2 clumps of units like the guy above you said and isn't it easier to:
group 1 -> Patrol click -> Forward Attack -> Profit$$$!!!!! :D
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On June 26 2010 11:55 Calamity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2010 23:47 Madkipz wrote:
You can achieve the same thing better by haveing one control group with everyone in and two additional with some in.
simply click group 2 -> left group 3 -> right group 1 -> forward attack! You would still have 2 clumps of units like the guy above you said and isn't it easier to: group 1 -> Patrol click -> Forward Attack -> Profit$$$!!!!! :D
No, actually. It would go Group 1 > Patrol Click > dance like idiots (if they attack, they'll do it inefficiently) > die to army that split better and faster the regular way.
You don't end up with 2 clumps of units if you spread right. You just get a better spread than you can with patrol.
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Awesome find! Great practical potential as well.
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On June 26 2010 12:07 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2010 11:55 Calamity wrote:On June 25 2010 23:47 Madkipz wrote:
You can achieve the same thing better by haveing one control group with everyone in and two additional with some in.
simply click group 2 -> left group 3 -> right group 1 -> forward attack! You would still have 2 clumps of units like the guy above you said and isn't it easier to: group 1 -> Patrol click -> Forward Attack -> Profit$$$!!!!! :D No, actually. It would go Group 1 > Patrol Click > dance like idiots (if they attack, they'll do it inefficiently) > die to army that split better and faster the regular way. You don't end up with 2 clumps of units if you spread right. You just get a better spread than you can with patrol.
Hmm.... you might be right if your able to spread them into a line before they attack. But if this is what you're trying to say then having several units in tight spaces would clump up into doubles lines as they advance?
Upon watching the videos again, the patrolled zealots had a few zealots that went back. (specifically the one at the bottom)
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What I was trying to say is that Patrol spreading is inefficient and regular spreading just works better in every aspect. The original idea was to mitigate splash, but regular spreading is still better for that due to the semi-random nature. If the terrain is so narrow that your units will clump anyway, into double lines as you put it, then there's little you can do about that with any micro, that's a terrain issue. But I can assure you if you spread your units using patrol, and a fast player spreads the traditional way, the patrol units lose, because they spread semi-randomly and won't be in good position.
It's better than just A-moving, but not as good as every other method.
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Oooh, interesting concept, the patrol micro should be helpful.
Edit: It works with air, but if the place you click is closer than the turning radius, the units just "dance."
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Imagine if units spread naturally without bizarre, artificial techniques.
I guess the techology's just not there yet.
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The patrol micro looks like it's just some very inefficient way of spreading. I don't see what exactly is the big deal with it.
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While we're on the topic, everyone is aware that you can stack a group of Mutalisks in one spot forever (or ANY other air unit - hell it even works with say, Mutas + Corruptors) by right clicking multiple times under the group of Mutalisks and then patroling pixels off center of where you were right clicking, yea?
Here's a video demonstration - you can do it a bit more cleanly than his execution. Though they do like to spread quickly, with practice and spamming right click, you can emulate the sc1 "One Muta" stack group.
I really think a combination of these two techniques would be ideal. There are still situations where you just won't be able to take your Mutas in, like if there are Thors + a bunch of Marines. Nasty.
+ Show Spoiler +
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my thor loves this idea of mutaclumping
Seriously though it could be interessting to see how it would work otherwise
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It's amazing for Muta timing pushes when you get there before Thors (someone confirm this for me so I know I wasn't just playing vs noobs?). There's no air AOE so you really get a nice first and second wave.
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seems like sc2 has more micropotential than many people thought=)
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Thanks for this!
I don't play SC1 but I remember I read somewhere abt how units will attack other units differently between attack move, patrol-attack, and hold attack. Is it true or did I remember it wrongly? Is it still applicable in SC2? What about magic-boxes?
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Great find, I look forward to testing this when phase two starts up!
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thanks for prove that there is much to discover.
that video comparing zealots T-moving into tanks and with patrol abuse is awesome!
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On June 26 2010 16:40 Effect010 wrote:
seems like sc2 has more micropotential than many people thought=)
yes i agree so now idiots who say the skill ceiling is too low will shut up.
this patrol micro is awesome and definitely something worth exploring once beta is back up. stacking phoenixs would also be nice too especially firing while moving and being stacked :O. definite testing needs to be done to see what units this works best with. but +1 OP
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Yea patrol muta stacking is good. just dont overdo it or blizzard might nerf it
On June 26 2010 11:55 Calamity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2010 23:47 Madkipz wrote:
You can achieve the same thing better by haveing one control group with everyone in and two additional with some in.
simply click group 2 -> left group 3 -> right group 1 -> forward attack! You would still have 2 clumps of units like the guy above you said and isn't it easier to: group 1 -> Patrol click -> Forward Attack -> Profit$$$!!!!! :D
no you would have 3 groups of units. patrol before attack is worthless.
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Alright so I just tested the splitting up into groups and the patrol against tanks.
The problem with patrol is that once they attack, they end up clumping back together. Another problem was that when I used patrol, the army formation was always different when they attacked. Sometimes there'd be more lots in front, others there were less. It's very inconsistant. Splitting into groups is much more controlled and outcome is more predictable. In the end, it seems that breaking them into groups and keeping them apart when they attack works much better than patrol.
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On June 27 2010 01:14 Calamity wrote:
Alright so I just tested the splitting up into groups and the patrol against tanks.
The problem with patrol is that once they attack, they end up clumping back together. Another problem was that when I used patrol, the army formation was always different when they attacked. Sometimes there'd be more lots in front, others there were less. It's very inconsistant. Splitting into groups is much more controlled and outcome is more predictable. In the end, it seems that breaking them into groups and keeping them apart when they attack works much better than patrol.
I don't think that this is going to be anywhere near as useful as I hoped. It *may* end up giving an advantage vs splash damaging units, but the problem here is really that they reclump so quickly. I'm really frustrated with pathing in SC2. They 'fixed' it too much =[
Wouldn't it be awesome if only zerg units (or maybe just zerglings) used that pathing algorithm so that they felt more swarm-ey than the other race's units? Wouldn't it be an interesting dynamic to add to units beyond dmg/move rate/range if some actually executed different pathing algorithms? They would FEEL so different...
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I'm pretty sure wc3 had a scatter command. I think it had something to do with patrol, perhaps you just do the patrol command on the same spot as the clump of units you want to scatter. Does anyone remember?
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On June 28 2010 15:16 oppositional wrote:
I'm pretty sure wc3 had a scatter command. I think it had something to do with patrol, perhaps you just do the patrol command on the same spot as the clump of units you want to scatter. Does anyone remember?
In warcraft 3 there was a formation type button that let you choose if you wanted your selected units to make a formation or to move like normal.
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Some people might see your post as confusing. What you (OP) are talking about is just a fast way to spread out units a bit (whether or not that was your intention, that's what this is)
It will not help a person IN combat, just before combat or out of combat. (because patrol works like attack move once you are fighting with an enemy)
That said, I think it's pretty interesting, Because even group selecting 1/3 army 2 times and moving them away (army split) takes more time (although it's also maybe more effective).
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Hehehe....
I can now charge tanks head on!
lol maybe not...
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On June 29 2010 08:12 Xapti wrote:
Some people might see your post as confusing. What you (OP) are talking about is just a fast way to spread out units a bit (whether or not that was your intention, that's what this is)
It will not help a person IN combat, just before combat or out of combat. (because patrol works like attack move once you are fighting with an enemy)
That said, I think it's pretty interesting, Because even group selecting 1/3 army 2 times and moving them away (army split) takes more time (although it's also maybe more effective).
Yeah, the intent for my post is exactly what you said, a nifty technique which I associated with spreading units. I also didn't make any claims to how useful it is, simply because I don't have enough games to tell what is effective and what is not.
I also definitely do not condone charging tanks, it's really a terrible idea no matter how you look at it. The tank charging vids are simply examples of how a scattered army using the technique can survive slightly longer than a clumped one.
That said, I think it's good that we see both positive and negative reactions regarding the technique. And I'm looking forward to testing it in real games :D
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Interesting analysis. Anxious to put it into practice when the beta comes back to see how it does.
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Random Micro things i found:
They expand if you shift queue patrols towards the enemy, as long as a unit hasn't reached the first patrol point (then they start going backwards) so with fast hands you can force them to spread semi-perfectly all the way to the target.
also been working on hold position micro, it works best with mutalisks but banshees work almost as well. you need a slight delay more than mutas, but it's easy to get used to.
roaches if you set to auto unburrow and hit burrow after every volley fired, they burrow, unburrow (almost immediately and are just barely ready to fire when they surface, this is good because it causes their units to retarget every time (ruining focus fire if it exists, and spreading damage better) as well as allowing roaches to regen around 15 each time while wasting no time. easy way to make your roaches alot more powerful.
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Hey where is the subgroup order modifier key in this game? In wc3 it was the control key, eventually they patched an option where you could turn it on or off in the game settings, does sc2 have anything like this? i found it very useful in wc3 and it would be even better with sc2
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That's great PrinceXizor for all roach armies if enemy has no detection, but Z usually has roaches up front to tank, and I wouldn't want to burrow-cycle all my roaches and have the enemy target my hydralisks. Perhaps if you alternated the burrow between two control groups of roaches?
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On June 26 2010 15:44 KawaiiRice wrote:
The patrol micro looks like it's just some very inefficient way of spreading. I don't see what exactly is the big deal with it.
agreed.
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I'm a little iffy. It seems super useful if you time the patrol right, but only in a few situations.
I really wish units didn't clump together so quickly.
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im sure it will be useful for some situations. I dont get why people are counter arguing this.
Against tanks i think you could have a small group of units and patrol it in first then click your main army to attack. Then move foward the small group so it doesnt make and arc and continue soaking up damage. Since it might take two hits before dieing since it was spead out
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On June 29 2010 22:24 BlackDraft wrote:
That's great PrinceXizor for all roach armies if enemy has no detection, but Z usually has roaches up front to tank, and I wouldn't want to burrow-cycle all my roaches and have the enemy target my hydralisks. Perhaps if you alternated the burrow between two control groups of roaches?
Even if they have detection, you still get the regen boost from being burrowed a little, while losing no attack time. that alone is invaluable. and yeah you could alternate if you need to tank for other units.
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Age of Empires had a scatter formation button T_T
WC3 had defensive and random formations.. so cluttered
But with underpowered units in SC2 tricks may be needed to distinguish skilled players from mass players, especially in team games.
Good post.
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On June 30 2010 09:14 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
Age of Empires had a scatter formation button T_T
WC3 had defensive and random formations.. so cluttered
But with underpowered units in SC2 tricks may be needed to distinguish skilled players from mass players, especially in team games.
Good post.
Ugh. This is something that always bothers me about TL. People think "skill" is finding retarded, non-obvious, combinations of nonsensical button presses that somehow translate into awesome micro. I mean, if the button was called something else, like "spread" and not "patrol", it might not be so ridiculous. But how does using a command called "patrol" to spread your units at all make any damn sense? It's the same deal with SC1.
I love seeing amazing micro as much as the next guy. But if exploiting little gimmicky non-intended game mechanics is the name of the game, I'll find a better game. I fully accept that human ingenuity is going to discover and use anything they can to win, of course. To do any thing else in a competition is pointless. I do think, however, that these wonderful little mechanics should be part of the obvious game, and not arcane secrets known only to innermost circle of forum worshippers. Hey, did you know if you select 4 units, rally them to your oppnents base, press f4, pause the game, and then click patrol 4x in the same spot, your units walk 0.2m/s faster?
Maybe I'm the only one (no, for sure, you all love that stuff), but I think if there is capability for any of these gimmicks, it should be well defined. Mentioned in the help menu. It should have a friggin place in the tutorial, and the interface should clearly tell you what you are doing when you do it. It doesn't mean it has to hold your hand. But without any sort of obvious "build in" mechanisms for players to discover this, it's really just an unfair advantage. Like playing poker and not telling somebody that a flush beats a straight. SURPRISE! I mean, granted, after long enough, people will eventually get curious how people pull stuff off and learn it themselves, but that's hardly ideal.
There's no denying it takes a lot of skill to use these little quirks to your advantage, but that's not really the point. It's the fact that they're ridiculously disconnected with the game's theme and rational strategy in general. There's nothing in "The Art of War" about telling your armies to patrol in the middle of combat.
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On June 29 2010 15:27 PrinceXizor wrote:
Random Micro things i found:
They expand if you shift queue patrols towards the enemy, as long as a unit hasn't reached the first patrol point (then they start going backwards) so with fast hands you can force them to spread semi-perfectly all the way to the target.
also been working on hold position micro, it works best with mutalisks but banshees work almost as well. you need a slight delay more than mutas, but it's easy to get used to.
roaches if you set to auto unburrow and hit burrow after every volley fired, they burrow, unburrow (almost immediately and are just barely ready to fire when they surface, this is good because it causes their units to retarget every time (ruining focus fire if it exists, and spreading damage better) as well as allowing roaches to regen around 15 each time while wasting no time. easy way to make your roaches alot more powerful.
That's pretty neat, watching the YouTubes it's interesting then adding on your information.
I believe this could be a quick way to "baneling mine" without having to pay too much attention for a low APM player like me :b
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Good job on the OP! much appreciated.
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How can anyone think a poorly executed scatter is some earth-shattering great thing? It's useless if there are enemy units around because patrol is basically attack, so you can't use it to micro, which means you'll have plenty of time to actually position them right the regular way, which is both better and faster and more accurate for every single possible situation you would ever use it in. Patrol scattering is Useless.
The roach burrow on the otherhand isn't, but probably is difficult in large numbers. I like that during their cooldown when they can't do more damage, they regen some health underground. Kind of like dragoons or reavers using their cooldowns to advance on tanks or pop into shuttles. That kind of micro is actually good, squeezing some extra use from your units instead of just making them run like Tweedledee and Tweedledumb.
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1. Running your drones away from hellions while moving/patrolling to keep them from clumps I imagine would be helpful. Has anyone ever watch replays where hellions roasts 6-10 drones in one shot cuz they are clumped ina line running away?
2. Quickly spreading out banelings to burrow them for baneling mines.
P then R is faster than selecting 2-3 groups, then moving them to spread them out, then burrowing.
Tried this with ultraling to see if it improves ultralisk pathing with lings, and it even gets worse. Ultralisk gets trapped inside the lings.
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i think this is brilliant. i love how you discovered this and hopefully people can practice this and come up with a way to make this useful in the game, this might make SC2 a lot more micro intensive than it is right now if it can be used right
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the only drawback I would foresee is having a few rogue "patrollers" chase after the enemy if it's within aggression range. But this can be overcome with good control/ high APM i think.
can't wait to test this out in ladder-games... good work OP
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Wow that is a very effecient way to spread out units, great post! I will definately be using this in my games :D
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I think it's just difficult to hit the P button when the A button is so nice and close.
But great idea. I usually just have my Zerglings patrolling randomly anyways.
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thats really awesome, time to try some roach hydra vs mech now and see how it works!
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wtf this is 2 months old, just now seeing it lol. Looks awesome, will start using asap.
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actually tried this in the unit tester, can't wait to try it on the ladder :D
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/Wr4ith_Bl4d3/zunclumpedvsemp.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/Wr4ith_Bl4d3/zclumpedvsemp.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/Wr4ith_Bl4d3/munclumpedvsstorm.jpg)
