[G] TvZ Nuke Rush & Offensive Ghost Strategy

mrlie3

Canada350 Posts

April 21 2010 16:26 GMT

Hello everyone! I hope you guys enjoyed my guide on 1 Thor Push Strategy. This time, I have brought yet another viable TvZ strategy, using Ghost as a replacement of typical MMM balls! Again, try this strategy as much as you can and give everyone a feedback on this thread! Enjoy!

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- Starcraft 2 Ghost Artwork

Table of Contents
1. Why Ghost > Marauder/Banshee in Most TvZ Situation
2. But Ghost costs 150 gas!
3. Build Order
4. How to Use Ghost
5. Counter Build for Zerg
6. Demonstrations
7. Replays

1. Why Ghost > Marauder/Banshee in Most TvZ Situation

First, let's look at Ghost's numbers;
Cost: 150/150
Time: 40 seconds
Supply: 2
HP: 100
Armor: 0 (+1)
Modifier: Biological, Psionic
Damage: 10 (+1), 10 (+1) against light units, 1.5 cooldown
Range: 6
Sight: 11
Abilities;
- Snipe - deals 45 damage, ignores armor, instant cast, 10 range, 25 energy.
- Cloak - become cloaked, drains 0.9 energy per second, 25 energy to cast.
- EMP Round - Removes 100 shield and all energy, and temporarily reveals cloacked units, 75 energy.
- Tactical Nuke - Call down nuclear missile, 10 range, 20 seconds cooldown, deals 300 (+200 against structure) in a large radius. Farther away from the centre, lesser the damage. Nuke can 1-shot Extractor, Spine Crawler, Spore Crawler, and Nydus Worm

Now, think of any units that can counter Marauders, Banshees, and Ghosts;
Marauder: Any AtG units, Zergling (hard counter), Hydralisk (soft counter)
Banshee: Any AtA units, Hydralisk (soft counter).
Ghost: Roach (Soft Counter), Broodlord, Ultralisk

And how about units they can counter against?
Marauder: Roach, Baneling, Ultralisk
Banshee: Zergling, Roach
Ghost: Zergling, Baneling, Hydralisk, Mutalisk, Infestor

You can notice that both Marauders and Banshees have limited usage once Zerg switches to Tier 2 units. However, Ghosts can counter BOTH Tier 1 and 2 units, except Roaches. Their 20 damage against light makes it so easy to deal with Zerglings once you have 3 or 4 Ghosts in your army composition. They can 2-Snipes a Hydralisk and 3-Snipe Mutalisk. With range of 10 and only 25 energy, Snipes can deal with Hydralisk and Mutalisk surprisingly well. A Ghost with 75 energy can deal with 2 Hydralisks at once. 2 Ghosts with 75 energy can take out 2 Hydralisks even before they get into the attack range and melt another 2 Hydralisks with additional Snipes and simple attacks.

Having Ghosts around the battefield also effectively denies Zerg player to make any Infestors thanks to EMP Round. What's more amazing is that Ghosts do not have any armor type, which makes even units like Roaches can only be soft counter to Ghosts. Effective use of Snipes and kiting can easily kill off Roaches as well.

Therefore, only reason not to use this strategy is when the opponent is going for Roaches. In this case, all you have to do is simply switch your strategy to Marauder heavy build. This should be no problem since both Ghosts and Marauders are produced from same building.

2. But Ghost costs 150 gas!

This is probably a reason why not many people are getting Ghosts even though they counter most of Zerg's early and mid-game units. Ghosts simply takes too much minerals and gas, so players might prefer having 6 Marauders than 9 Marines and 1 Ghost, as Marauders are spammable and more durable. While this holds true, that in a normal macro game pumping simple Marine/Marauders fair well against Zerg, I believe in TvZ you should never let Zerg do his regular macro build. Terran has so many arsenals in their hand that can effectively disrupt Zerg's economy, such as Reapers, Hellions, Vikings, Banshees, Thor drop, and so on, so why not use them at the fullest?

Now let's look at comparison between 6 Marauders and 9 Marines/1 Ghost. Instead of 9 Marines, why not 4 Hellions? Marauders, with their constant need for upgrades and fair amount of minerals to spam, make it harder for Terran to switch to other tech. With the extra minerals left over from pumping Ghosts, I tried a build to incorporate Hellions, and worked quiet nicely against Zerg. While Hellion harass disrupts Zerg's economy, you can safely accumulate enough Marines, Maraduers, and Ghosts to do following build order;

3. Build Order

First, start with regular Orbital Command build;
10 Depot
12 Rax - Pump 2 rines
13 Gas
15~16 OC

By the time OC is done, your scv should have scouted Zerg's base. If you are sure Zerg isn't going Roach build, follow this strat;
17 Gas (can be constructed later if scout isn't done properly, but the timing will be delayed a bit)
18 Depot
18 Factory
18 Reactor on rax
21 Switch Factory and Barrack and produce double Hellions - Start Harassing!
20~23 Depot - Continue adding Depots as you see fits.
26 Tech lab on rax (immediately after switching) - Build 1 Marauder
26 Ghost Academy

Depending on the situation, you may build a bunker at the entrance and put 1 Marauder and 2 rines for possible Zergling/Baneling Rush. You should know this when after your Hellion sees either Baneling Nest or Speedlings.

32~34 Build first Ghost after Marauder. Research Cloak from Ghost Academy ASAP.

35~37 Build Starport - Pump 1 Medivac then maybe 1 Viking afterward. Contnue pumping Maraduers. Start researching Stimpack. By this time you probably had 2 or 3 harasses with 2 Hellions in the beginning and 4 Hellions afterward. Stop pumping Hellions and build Engineering Bay and Turrets in your base if your Hellions saw Spire going up. Otherwise pump more Hellions for Hyralisks.

47~50 Get Nuke right after Cloak is done. Nuke takes 60 seconds to produce. This is when you load 1 Ghost and 3 Marauders into your Medivac and head for Zerg's base. Also, build 2 raxes right after your medivac pops out.

Now here is the interesting math I can show you about how Nukes and 3 Marauders can easily take out Hatchery and even Lair! 3 Stimpacked Marauders deal 19 x 3 = 57 damage per second. Nuke deals 500 damage and takes 20 seconds. So in theory, 3 Stimpacked Marauders and 1 Nuke can deal (57 x 20) + 500 = 1640 damage to structure in 20 seconds! This is enough to take out 1250HP Hatchery, 1500HP Command center, 1500HP Nexus, and possibly 1800HP Lair after hitting few more shots.

When your medivac drops into the Zerg's base, both Nuke and Stimpack should be researched. Cloak your Ghost immediately and nuke Hatchery/Lair, while stimpack your Marauders immediately and attack Hatchery/Lair as well. Use remaining Hellions to distract Zerg! Psychology is a powerful thing, as getting harassed by Hellions during the entire game puts Zerg player to look out for Hellions first.

Chances are, your Zerg won't have an Overseer to spot your cloaked Ghost. This Nuke comes down usually at around 9:30 to 10:00 mark, which makes it extremely fast Nuke Rush!

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Once your nuke is going down...

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Use Hellions to distract and eat away any fleeing drones!

Continue producing Nukes afterward. You should have around 2 Hellions, 5 Marines, 2 Ghosts, 1 Viking, and 1 Medivac (if you manage to survive your first Medivac). If your Hellion harasses and Nuke Rush were even remotely successful, Zerg will have only about dozen of Zerglings and a few Mutalisks/Hydralisks remaining, since he is too busy pumping Drones, morphing Overseers, and getting static defense around the base. (Not to mention the total confusion he is having

) This is the timing window to attack the Zerg's base with your army!

You can choose to Nuke his backdoor again, or use it to destroy the static defenses at the front. Most of time with 1 Medivac healing Ghosts and other armies protecting it, it is extremely difficult to take down that cloaked Ghost nuking down Zerg's front base.

Even if your rush has failed, you can still pump Ghosts until Zerg gets Tier 3 units and deal with most of Zerg units while you yourself either go expand or complete your MMM balls.

4. How to Use Ghost

Ghosts are actually very easy to use. Since they can 2-shot Zergling, attack-move is sufficient enough to deal with Zerglings, right after you play fun rounds of sniping!

Like I mentioned before, Snipes can 2-shot Hyrdalisk and 3-shot Mutalisk. All you have to do is simply select all your Ghosts and press "R" and left click these units like crazy. You can shift-click Snipe ability to instantly take out all of Zerg's units as well. Whenever you see Infestors, just cloak your Ghosts and either Snipe or EMP them. They can also 1-shot Drone with Snipes, so you can quickly kill off Zerg's drones once you get into his base, similar to how Psi-storms on mineral lines can take out whole bunch of workers.

Dealing instantaneous damage of 45 at range of 10 effectively halves down Zerg's army even before the fighting starts. Spam as much as possible to cripple their forces, and attack-move to clear all Zerglings, and you will see "GG" soon enough. Have fun sniping!

5. Counter Build for Zerg

I've been using this strategy for myself quite a while, and I found out some of the counter build Zerg players can do against this build. Let's look at these counter build so Terran can counter them again!

Simcity: By using Zerg buildings like Evolution Chambers and Roach Warren, Zerg can effectively block off Hellion harass. However, Hellion drops work against this strategy.

Secret Expansion: The purpose of this build is to halve Zerg's economy, so any secret 3rd expansion negates this Ghost Build. Constant scout by Hellions can effectively end this strategy as well. Be very active with your Hellions!

6 pool: Because Ghost Build gets 2nd supply depot relatively slower than other build, Zerg can exploit this by going all-in and bypass the choke before 2nd supply depot has been built. Use early scv scout to find 6 pool build and IMMEDIATELY build 2nd supply depot, and you should be fine.

Fast Baneling... I mean REALLY FAST: If Zerg can get Banelings before first 2 Hellions pop out, they can swarm through the wall and win very easily. This is why early scv scout needs to see if Zerg is getting gas or expansion. Extra wall-in can deter this attack very well, as shown below;

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You kinda feel sorry for banelings with walls like this

Nydus Worm: Similar to Baneling, you need to scout properly and see whether Zerg is going Baneling or Nydus, since two builds require completely different placement of supply depots. Spread your supply depots on your base to reveal and fog of war.

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Build supply depots at places like here, to find any Nydus Worm activity

1-Hatchery Fast Muta: this build can make 5 or 6 Mutalisks extremely fast, leaving Terran no time to react at all. If your early scouting scv does not see any expansion and even find early Lair-teching, get engineering bay ASAP and delay Ghost Build a bit, and place turrets on your mineral lines and production lines. Once you get 2 or 3 Ghosts, 5 or 6 Mutalisks won't be a problem with proper sniping. O, and don't forget to tighten your choke as well, sine alot of Zerglings are going be with Mutalisks.

6. Demonstrations

As always, here are some of demonstrations I did against Platinum Zerg players!

1. John (T) vs. Rigid (Z) at Desert Oasis
+ Show Spoiler +

12 Terran went standard 12 rax,

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While 6 Zerg went 14 hatchery to take advantage of the map.

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T followed the Ghost Build, building Factory after 2 rines and getting reactor at the same time.

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Hellions were immediately pumping out while Ghost Academy and Tech Lab were being built.

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First wave of Hellions did fair amount of damage to drones. This forces Zerg to produce more drones and build spine crawlers, which forces him to produce even more drones.

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Next wave of Hellions simply bypassed the static defense and goes for the main base...

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And wrecked havok on drones while scouting Spire.

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T buillt Engineering Bay immediately and prepared for Mutalisks

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Mutalisks tried to snipe a lone Ghost but instead sniped back by Ghost and retreated as a Medivac completely heals Ghost.

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T decided to use the map in his favour as well, and send 1 Ghost, 1 scv, and 5 Marines along with 1 Medivac and 1 Viking to the outskirt of Zerg's base.

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T initiated Nuke on Extractors while building turrets and bunkers. Zerg had no way of stopping the Nuke as he lacks detectors.

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Z tried to retalitate with Mutalisks, but 1 Turret and rounds of sniping from Ghost were too much for them.

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Nuke was continuously called down to deny any saturation of resources at main base.

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Z tried to expand on high yield, but discovered by Hellions.

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T didn't let Z to recover his wounds as Ghosts, Marines, and Hellions rushes to his base.
Mutalisks were quickly sniped down and Zergling were easily taken out by Ghosts and Hellions.

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While T destroys Z's natural...

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Yet another Nuke was called upon Z's main...

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And Z was forced to GG.

2. John (T) vs. Balrog (Z) at Metalopolis
+ Show Spoiler +

6 Terran went for standard 12 rax.

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While 12 Zerg went for 14 pool...

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And went for fast Lair for T2 units.

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Again, T followed Ghost Build and goes for Factory and Reactor at the same time.

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Buildings were switched and Ghost Academy and Tech Lab were built.

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While Z was building Spire...

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Hellions raided drones and discover Spire and killing fair amount of drones.

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While Hellion harass continued, T's Medivac loaded 3 Marauders and 1 Ghost for Nuke. You can see Nuke is underway and Stimpack is almost finished, while Engineering Bay and 2 Barracks were started construction.

While Hellions distracted Z's attention... (Which I kinda failed to do any damage this time

)

Nuke was initiated in Z's base. Notice how much damage can 3 stimpacked Marauders can dealt in mere 20 seconds! Although T failed to take out this Lair...

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Boom! Precarious Z didn't see Nuke going down as he was too preoccupied with Hellions and Marauders!

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Z tried to counter-attack with Mutalisks, but again Ghost's snipes were more than enough to fend off these Mutalisks.

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A lone Ghost hiding under the fog succeeded in second Nuke, killing Queen and Spawning Pool, and almost taking out Lair before he died.

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T rushed in with offensive Nuke,

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But Z barely managed to take out the Ghost before the calldown was finished. But by then all of his armies were sacrificed.

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T stormed through Z's undefended base and killed off Zerglings' last attempt for defense.

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The game ends with a big bang. GG.

7. Replays

Patch 8

John vs. Rigid
John vs. Balrog

Patch 10

John vs. Pop

Patch 13

John vs. Rhyme

I hope you can have as much fun as I did with this strategy. This is still in developing phase, so I think there are tons of ways to improve this build. Try them out, post your replays here, and discuss among players! Thanks for reading!

mrlie3

Canada350 Posts

April 21 2010 16:47 GMT

I'm also looking into following 3 things to improve this strategy;

1. When to upgrade Moebius Reactor (+25 Ghost energy when produced)
2. When to expand safely
3. Possibility of and when to use 4 Ghosts and Medivac to snipe-fest drones at later games

It would be much appreciated if someone can advice me on these ones as well!

Blanke

Canada180 Posts

April 21 2010 17:18 GMT

Very intriguing strategy sir! I will be sure try it out myself later. To answer your questions....

1.This is definitely important when going heavy ghosts. Moebius Reactor is a very cheap upgrade (100 M/100 G) and takes 80 seconds to complete. But a ghost only takes 40 seconds to train. Cloaking costs 200 M/200 G and takes a full two minutes to complete. If you see a spire going up, and you're convinced snipe will ward off the mutas, (which means you continue to pump ghosts) I would say research Moebius right when your nuke finishes. Since it equals the cost of a nuke, your army composition really shouldn't be hurt that bad.

2. Typically people xpand right when they push out. I'd say right when your 'covert ops' crew of marines, ghosts, scvs, medivacs and a viking rolls out.Build the CC in your main (because the mutas will harass) and upgrade it to a OC before lifting off, just to get a quick MULE.

3. If a late game transition is ineviatble, you gotta be careful with the "ghost drop" incase he gets broodlords. (That's a unit you kinda overlooked in this strat.) Vikings are your only viable option in that situation. If there's no broodlords, then try that ghost drop on a saturated base (his natural, likely) when you harass another with hellions. Again, the pyschology you spoke of.

Well constructed strat overall.

TheHof

United States92 Posts

April 21 2010 18:37 GMT

Sounds fun. I'll have to give it a go. mmmm ghosts...

PhiliBiRD

United States2643 Posts

April 21 2010 18:45 GMT

I've been working on a ghost rush myself also! I initially went straight for cloak+nuke. Which I found to be somewhat effective, but what seemed to REALLY be effective was just sniping drones with ghosts auto-attack. So then what I started doing was going straight for 2 ghost+cloak and just rush in and start raping drones.

It works RATHER well, considering 1 of 2 things. They either fast expanded, or 1 based. VS the FE, its much more effective, the later the Lair obviously the better. however, if they have a early lair it will nearly nullify your ghost usage. having enough ghosts to pick off the Overseer (even once) will be extremely expensive, and you wont be able to stand toe to toe with a zerg army.

Realistically, like the reaper, they are situational units, and harass/scouting units.

Also in your build, I have no clue how you will have the extra gas for a factory, starport, medivac AND possibly a viking. That seems extremely outrageous to have THAT much gas ontop of ghost+upgrades. I usually dont even get a factory and still struggle with gas very badly.

Good effort however, keep working on it

CptBluebear

United Kingdom19 Posts

April 21 2010 21:59 GMT

This seems like a great strategy, very interesting and not one the opponent would expect. I like how you included the ghosts snipe ability in the strategy as I have always been curious as to whether it actually has any practical uses.

mrlie3

Canada350 Posts

April 21 2010 22:37 GMT

On April 22 2010 03:45 PhiliBiRD wrote:
Also in your build, I have no clue how you will have the extra gas for a factory, starport, medivac AND possibly a viking. That seems extremely outrageous to have THAT much gas ontop of ghost+upgrades. I usually dont even get a factory and still struggle with gas very badly.

If you watch the replay, you will see that I will have just enough gas for everything, without even a breath of any leftover gas. This is why I have forgone some of the upgrades like Moebius Reactor and Concussive Shells upgrades. There is simply no room for such upgrades and their usability is questionable at the early stage of the game. You can also notice that I do not waste any gas on units as I only pump 2 Marines and tons of Hellions until my build is ready, since Marines and Hellions do not cost any gas.

On April 22 2010 02:18 Blanke wrote:
Very intriguing strategy sir! I will be sure try it out myself later. To answer your questions....

1.This is definitely important when going heavy ghosts. Moebius Reactor is a very cheap upgrade (100 M/100 G) and takes 80 seconds to complete. But a ghost only takes 40 seconds to train. Cloaking costs 200 M/200 G and takes a full two minutes to complete. If you see a spire going up, and you're convinced snipe will ward off the mutas, (which means you continue to pump ghosts) I would say research Moebius right when your nuke finishes. Since it equals the cost of a nuke, your army composition really shouldn't be hurt that bad.

2. Typically people xpand right when they push out. I'd say right when your 'covert ops' crew of marines, ghosts, scvs, medivacs and a viking rolls out.Build the CC in your main (because the mutas will harass) and upgrade it to a OC before lifting off, just to get a quick MULE.

3. If a late game transition is ineviatble, you gotta be careful with the "ghost drop" incase he gets broodlords. (That's a unit you kinda overlooked in this strat.) Vikings are your only viable option in that situation. If there's no broodlords, then try that ghost drop on a saturated base (his natural, likely) when you harass another with hellions. Again, the pyschology you spoke of.

Well constructed strat overall.

Thank you for the intriguing answers Blanke. Just let you know that Cloak upgrade for Ghost costs 150/150 and not 200/200 like Banshee's. I like you suggestion of building CC at main for even more secrecy to this build.

Jonoman92

United States9103 Posts

April 21 2010 22:44 GMT

This seems like a cool build and I'd definitely like to try it out.

I feel like you may be in some trouble against a fast baneling wall break though because all you will have is a few marines behind your wall. This is an issue in pretty much any TvZ build that involves tech though I guess.

mrlie3

Canada350 Posts

April 21 2010 22:49 GMT

On April 22 2010 07:44 Jonoman92 wrote:
This seems like a cool build and I'd definitely like to try it out.

I feel like you may be in some trouble against a fast baneling wall break though because all you will have is a few marines behind your wall. This is an issue in pretty much any TvZ build that involves tech though I guess.

Well you see, Hellions do wonderful job of scouting any of Zerg's suspicious activities (hence giving you a plenty time to prepare with bunkers behind your choke), and they do very well against Zerglings and Banelings with good kiting.

tenpromicro

United States119 Posts

April 21 2010 22:50 GMT

#10

Someone tried this on me yesterday and if I didn't make a timely push with blings and mutas I would have lost. He got his nuke off on my base in the midst of a battle and me microing back and forth with my base and mutas in his base.. IMO nuke is awesome in this situation because there is so much going on.. I didn't even realize the nuclear launch detected because of all the mayhem+ my low sound. I would post replay but it was at 6am and my play was pretty embarrassing despite the win. :o

Taefox

1533 Posts

April 22 2010 01:27 GMT

#11

What if Z went for fast baneling ?

Adama

Spain18 Posts

April 22 2010 01:39 GMT

#12

I carbon copied your build in 3 TvZ allready, it worked nicely. From fast Hellion pressure it flows rapidly into nuke harass. You also are in good shape to move into late game, with stim, shells and starport on the field, but all 3 games ended after first or second nuke.

Btw, fast baneling dies to hellions.

SichuanPanda

Canada1542 Posts

April 22 2010 01:43 GMT

#13

I've had mixed success with this. If the player doesn't expect you to be pumping Ghosts (i.e. turtles or simply scouts poorly) it can be oftentimes game changing (read: ending), however I've also had situations where the Ghosts fared well but weren't enough to finish an opponent and were a good transition to late-tech, I've even had games where the Ghosts get routed by fast Observers/Overseers/Scan etc. etc. Will have to have a lot more people trying this out to fully exploit the strategy properly I'm sure.

synapse

China13814 Posts

April 22 2010 02:10 GMT

#14

Very creative build - I never thought about how ghosts did against mutalisks. How does this build fare versus 2base roachling, though? An early roach warren for 1-2 roaches -> drone pump can easily defend hellion harass, wouldn't Z be able to roll over this strat with early-mid game roachling (push right after speed for roaches is done)?

goswser

United States3519 Posts

April 22 2010 02:10 GMT

#15

This is ok, a variation I have used effectively on dust bowl is a quick rush to starport tech, get the ghost academy asap once the port is started, ramp block with the fact, a rax, and a depot, get like 1-2 marauders/rines, a ghost, and a medivac, start the nuke after you start the ghost and medivac, they should finish about the same time, load the ghost and any marauders/rines you have, land them on that nice little ridge and nuke with no cloaking, it gets it out much earlier, and is especially good against muta builds, since without those 2 gas early muta doesn't work. I like to throw down a starport reactor as the medivac leaves, then getting 4 quick vikings as a followthrough, since 4 vikings can kill ovis in 2 volleys, and annihilate queens and drones.

edit : very nice post though

PaleBlueDot

United States263 Posts

April 22 2010 02:34 GMT

#16

Nuke sucks. End of story. While they have made it easier to get, and have made the ghost an appealing unit to just have around, you are basically putting your money into a 100 mineral, 100 gas baneling that takes longer to get, has a 60 second build time, will NEVER hit an army unless your opponent is either very unlucky, or stupid, and can be easily disrupted. Not only that, but it doesn't take out any important buildings (depending how important you consider supply buildings, which wouldn't work against zerg since they move.) Ghosts are good, but expensive. They don't need a sorry excuse for a nuke to make them good. If blizzard really wanted you to use a nuke, they would make the actual nuke itself an investment, and make it 1 shot any building in the game. As it stands now, you hear nuke detected, move all your workers, and check to make sure its not on your army, and you will lose nothing but supply cap at worst. Right now, as in SC1, there is no reason to have the nuke in the game except to make a fool out of your enemy.

fulmetljaket

482 Posts

April 22 2010 02:52 GMT

#17

did not read anything, but that picture is fucking epic as hell bro

mrlie3

Canada350 Posts

April 22 2010 03:49 GMT

#18

On April 22 2010 10:27 foxj wrote:
What if Z went for fast baneling ?

Hellions.

On April 22 2010 10:39 Adama wrote:
I carbon copied your build in 3 TvZ allready, it worked nicely. From fast Hellion pressure it flows rapidly into nuke harass. You also are in good shape to move into late game, with stim, shells and starport on the field, but all 3 games ended after first or second nuke.

Were your matches against Platinum players? If so, is it possible for you to share the replay? I could post them on this thread for samples.

On April 22 2010 11:10 synapse wrote:
Very creative build - I never thought about how ghosts did against mutalisks. How does this build fare versus 2base roachling, though? An early roach warren for 1-2 roaches -> drone pump can easily defend hellion harass, wouldn't Z be able to roll over this strat with early-mid game roachling (push right after speed for roaches is done)?

I've already mentioned that if you see Roach Warren at the initial scout, don't go this build.

Since you already started with regular OC build, there is no loss to switch to Marauder build at all. If Zerg switches to Roaches in mid-game, your Hellions would probably seen the switch and again, all you have to do is pump Marauders instead of Ghosts in your rax.

PredY

Czech Republic1731 Posts

April 22 2010 15:58 GMT

#19

well you say snipe is range 10 but it's same as ghost's regular attack isn't it? range 6
and i have tried to mix ghost into my army and it went quite well but if the range was better then i'd use it more i think.

omninmo

2349 Posts

April 22 2010 16:10 GMT

#20

well written. though not invincible this build should prove very fun to say the least! thanks for your effort with the demonstrations section- it looks awesome.

makes me wanna try all sorts of ghost drops into mineral lines. i didnt know snipe ones shots drones. one could save up energy, then drop 2 ghosts in each mineral line shift + clicking to annihilate two mineral lines at once. that would be sex-ee.

snace

Austria25 Posts

April 22 2010 16:16 GMT

#21

Hello.

Very good idea - I tried it yesterday (although against like copper people because i got resetted)

It is very funny. Some people leave outright because they are intimidated by the animation.

Another thing which is very good is to keep hellions near his nat as you drop the ghost - then cloak the ghost (which you dropped at some remote spot in his main) and target the nuke on his hatch or where its most appropriate and instantly attack with the hellions. so hell be microing his natural while he gets the nuke message.

Blanke

Canada180 Posts

April 22 2010 16:58 GMT

#22

I hope to post some replays later, but there have been rare instances (i.e. versus noobs) where this strat astonishingly worked vs. toss and terran. I wouldn't reccommend it though, unless a toss player FEs.

Getting the Moebius reactor after your first nuke finishes is a good idea, especially if the zerg is going lots of muta. Personally however, I find it more effective to position your nuke over his spire/baneling nest, wound them just enough with your 3 marauders, and then smile as he loses most of his tech. I do have a question for the OP though: should you really abandon the ghosts completely if zerg goes roaches? In some of my games, I was able to win with nukes while still pumping lots of maruaders. My unit composition would be: Ghosts, marauders, hellions, medivacs, and maybe a few vikings to kill overseers.

Snipe is also sweet. A ghost at 200 energy (Moebius Reactor helps make this possible) can kill 4 hydras almost instantly. In some instances, when I don't have enough hellions to block them off or kite properly, I try sniping banelings. One-shotting them of course, sniping banelings really helps with the life expectancy of your maruader ball.

It should be mentioned that I don't get many marines unless his muta force is overwhelming. Typically though, turrets can hold them off until you mass enough ghosts to simply obliterate him. If you feel snipe isn't enough, research either high-sec auto tracking or building armor. (Probably the latter, since you want as much DPS from your turrets as possible.) Building your CC once you push out with first nuke is typically a good idea, especially if the zerg FEed. You gotta keep up with his economy, especially if the nuke doesn't kill many drones.

I've been considering building multiple ghost academies at late game just to nuke all his bases at once. What could a zerg do if you killed his overseer? 3 nukes (2 at main, 1 at natural) plus your main force pushing in is pretty much GG.

SubtleArt

2710 Posts

April 22 2010 17:29 GMT

#23

Very very very well written and in-depth. Gonna try this strat out :D. Even if it doesn't work it should be fun. Thanks.

kawoq

Guatemala357 Posts

April 22 2010 18:37 GMT

#24

On April 23 2010 01:58 Blanke wrote:
I've been considering building multiple ghost academies at late game just to nuke all his bases at once. What could a zerg do if you killed his overseer? 3 nukes (2 at main, 1 at natural) plus your main force pushing in is pretty much GG.

I though you can only build one nuke at any time, am I wrong?

Also, I though you wasnt able to use the snipe ability on workers... guess I was wrong too.

Anyway, the strat sound like fun to try, will watch the replays first to have a better grap of the strat, nice work.

Blanke

Canada180 Posts

April 22 2010 19:37 GMT

#25

What I meant Kawoq is that you could potentially build 2 ghost academies later on if your rush didn't end it. Then you can have 3 nukes ready from three academies.

I believe probes are immune to snipe because they're robotic, but drones and SCVs are definitely biological.

oneplus999

United States23 Posts

April 22 2010 21:34 GMT

#26

On April 23 2010 03:37 kawoq wrote:

Also, I though you wasnt able to use the snipe ability on workers... guess I was wrong too.

I believe it works vs biological units only? So it wouldn't work vs probes. That might be what you are thinking of.

edit: oops must read entire thread... already answered

sirwebo

Germany27 Posts

April 22 2010 22:03 GMT

#27

thanks for that awesome guide !

Risen

United States7927 Posts

April 22 2010 22:11 GMT

#28

Didn't they change snipe to work against any unit? Can't check in the beta, and though I play terran I've never built a ghost except as an EMP bot :<

goswser

United States3519 Posts

April 22 2010 22:33 GMT

#29

Just don't try to emp a nexus and then nuke it - that only worked in sc1, now it takes like 8ish emps to take down the shields lol.

JamesLame

Sweden25 Posts

April 22 2010 23:04 GMT

#30

Interesting strat indeed, will give it a shot.

CondorHero

United States21 Posts

April 24 2010 11:56 GMT

#31

Amazingly well thought out. I would definitely try if I was still terran.
Nice build bro.

Odge

Sweden84 Posts

April 24 2010 19:11 GMT

#32

The best thing about this build is how you feel inside when that nuke destroys all his tech and most of his workers. Having some problems keeping my macro up after i start moving, but I guess that's just because I'm not used to the build.

Awesome build, and fun to play.

SiN]

United States540 Posts

April 25 2010 05:08 GMT

#33

On April 22 2010 11:34 PaleBlueDot wrote:
Nuke sucks. End of story. While they have made it easier to get, and have made the ghost an appealing unit to just have around, you are basically putting your money into a 100 mineral, 100 gas baneling that takes longer to get, has a 60 second build time, will NEVER hit an army unless your opponent is either very unlucky, or stupid, and can be easily disrupted. Not only that, but it doesn't take out any important buildings (depending how important you consider supply buildings, which wouldn't work against zerg since they move.) Ghosts are good, but expensive. They don't need a sorry excuse for a nuke to make them good. If blizzard really wanted you to use a nuke, they would make the actual nuke itself an investment, and make it 1 shot any building in the game. As it stands now, you hear nuke detected, move all your workers, and check to make sure its not on your army, and you will lose nothing but supply cap at worst. Right now, as in SC1, there is no reason to have the nuke in the game except to make a fool out of your enemy.

If you move all of your drones off minerals and gas for 20 seconds, it will cost far more than 100/100 for the nuke.

pikaaarrr :3

United States593 Posts

April 25 2010 05:10 GMT

#34

This seems really interesting. But, what if instead of spire, the zerg goes for a hydra/infestor build? That's the build I've had the most trouble with so far in ZvT. It seems that hydra/infestor would roll over the hellions/marines. Also, it would make the medivac/nuking section mostly oblique, since it'd be really difficult to land the units.

Nivra

37 Posts

April 25 2010 08:04 GMT

#35

Just a note for those who say it's not worth it. Even if your nuke kills NO UNITS, and NO BUILDINGS, you have cost them mining time.

16 workers @ 1 min/sec, and 6 workers @ 1 gas/sec over 20 seconds (the timing of the nuke) = 320 mins/120 gas.

If you're playing smart and scout for overseers, you can pretty much guarantee that you won't lose your ghost.

zimms

Austria561 Posts

April 25 2010 09:16 GMT

#36

Rigid's answer to your replay against him:

"Ok i wasnt gonna post here b/c frankly i was pretty shocked this replay was even posted. So heres the deal this was my first game of the day which is never good and during the whole game my dogs were fighting at one point if you watch the replay i go afk b/c i have to physically break the dogs up and seperate them into different rooms. Now i understand john is trying to show off a nuke strat vs zerg but honestly i dont think it would work. Granted it worked this game but thats partially b/c i let it happen. Anyways gg john you out played me this game but it wouldnt happen again!!! "

lol

Kiante

Australia7069 Posts

April 25 2010 10:13 GMT

#37

I am really impressed. Tbh i thought your 1 thor push strategy was really meh, as in, you'd be winning an already won game. But this is amazing. The idea of dropping the marauders while harassing with the hellions is genius. What i saw you left out was the offensive nuking. Sometimes if you're being attacked after you lost a battle, and you throw nuke in your choke, it makes your enemy retreat, or if they dont see it die. I feel like you discussed the offensive capabilities of the ghost but the not the defensive as much.

Still, this is inspirit. I will definetly be trying ghosts over thors in my upcoming tvz's

Raislin

United States144 Posts

April 25 2010 10:42 GMT

#38

On April 23 2010 07:11 itzbrandnew wrote:
Didn't they change snipe to work against any unit? Can't check in the beta, and though I play terran I've never built a ghost except as an EMP bot :<

I'm pretty sure it only works on Biological units.

@OP: I really like the suggestion of using more Ghosts and, more importantly, how to use them in PvZ (Looking at Snipe, doesn't it look like it's designed to kill everything Zerg?). What I don't like is the rigidity of the build order and strategy you laid down. For example:

1) Relying on the Hellions for distraction against the nuke: I'm pretty sure a single Spine Crawler would deter 2-4 Hellions with support from a Queen. Two well placed Crawlers would pretty much reduce damage significantly, possibly completely with some luck.

2) Going for the nuke every time. If the Nuke is stopped, you're going to be hurting a bit, as it means a wasted 100/100 on the nuke and the cost of the Ghost. Since you also brought a Medivac and two Marauders, you likely lost those, too. More likely: What if you get to their base and see that pulling this off just isn't likely to happen? For example, you see a Lair and Overseer prepared after your Ghost academy was spotted. You could bring two Ghosts to quickly and easily snipe the Overseer, but then your nuke won't kill the Hatch as intended.

3) You didn't even mention the Moebius upgrade, although I'm sure you assume it'll be obtained. Considering the usefulness of snipe, I'd rate it pretty high on the list of desired upgrades.

I'm sure there's more, but I'm pretty tired and have forgotten anything else I might have wanted to say. Great job, though! I'm sure there are many adjustments that could be made to this build, should people pick it up and fiddle with it.

Blanke

Canada180 Posts

April 26 2010 00:39 GMT

#39

I'm beginning to question the viability of actually nuking the zerg's main base. Unless your opponent is a complete noob and thinks radiation is good for his drones life expectancy, you may only end up destroying his extractors, possibly spire and/or spawning pool if you're really lucky. The main problem I have with doing this is the investment in cloaking.

You told us to research it ASAP once the academy goes up. I understand why for timing purposes, but afterwards you need to save energy for snipe if you plan on continuing ghost production. (Which by all means you should.) Cloak will only be used again for nukes. (Which again likely wont succeed if your opponent isn't noobish and gets overseers/spore colonies after the first one.) What if instead of cloak, you researched Moebius reactor right away when the first maruader was still building? Moebius takes 80 sec, a marauder 30 sec, so depending on your macro, it might just finish before your first ghost comes out after 40 sec.

But why fast Moebius research? Well, I'm thinking a hellion, marauder, ghost, and medivac army makes for great pushes vs. a tier 2 zerg. Check this out:

Hellions > Zerglings, Banelings, possibly hydras depending on positioning. (You'll want Infernal Pre-ignitor if zerg is massing ling/bling, so get a second fact at some point if that's the case.)

Maruader > Roaches and zerg buildings. Pretty obvious by now, but with both concussive grenades and stimpack, the tired roach push will routinely fail.

Ghost > Hydras, Mutas because of snipe like you said. This requires extensive micro and unfaltering knowledge of the enemy position however. 1 ghost can snipe 4 hydras, or 2.5 mutas at 200 energy. Ghosts will be your gas dump when getting maruaders and hellions.

And of course, medivacs to compliment the life expectancy of your ghosts and maruaders.

SiN]

United States540 Posts

April 26 2010 01:16 GMT

#40

I have used ghosts in my last few ZvT's. It works really well. If the Z gets mutas, they get sniped by ghosts.
Snipe also works well vs corrupters.

If Z gets sunkens to defend vs the all-in, you nuke.
Really, nuking in general is just a great idea. For 100 minerals/gas your opponent starts to panic, and when nuking in a battle he has only one option: target the ghost.
Targeting the ghost means that the Z is going to lose about a quarter of his army just to get in range, making the nuke effective even if it doesn't go off.

Nuking really allows you to pick your battle because it forces the Z to attack. If he doesn't he loses that base and is devastated.

I was having difficulty in TvZ when the Z gets ling/muta, but I haven't lost vs top 8 plats since I adopted this build.

EDIT: Upgrading cloak early and dropping on the main aren't very good ideas vs higher level players. Nuking works far better vs expos that are defended than on the main because it costs far less. You don't have to wait for cloak and medivac, and your timing push works a lot better because, at that time, Z will be on 2base and just started massing up units rather than drones.

Phos

Iceland106 Posts

April 26 2010 01:36 GMT

#41

Unfortunately those replays dont work anymore because they are "referencing invalid files". I think the problem is that those maps were changed and dont exist anymore in their old state.

Anyway, could anyone who used this successfully after patch 10 upload a replay or two? i'd be very interested to see this live.

H2O Xplicit

Korea (South)56 Posts

April 26 2010 01:48 GMT

#42

Hey mrlie3 love your guide!
But could you make a guide into countering certain Protoss forces such as an early immortal push? Thanks

ppgButtercup

United States159 Posts

April 26 2010 07:43 GMT

#43

I had someone do this to me earlier today. Thanks...

Anyways, I beat him but it was close. Speedlings basically won me the game. I switched into roaches the second I saw hellion harass.

When the drop happened, I pulled drones from my main, countered with a group of lings, and all-in pushed his front with my roaches and other lings. Basically busted his front down and killed his main about the time he had to pick up his offensive force so my lings wouldn't kill it. I redroned, kept streaming speedlings, and ran him over.

Granted, he probably didn't do as good of a job as you at execution.

TobZero

Germany493 Posts

April 26 2010 08:18 GMT

#44

have you used this strat vs. mass speedlings with some static defense in mineral lines to stop helion harras?
overall this is a good writeup but i just have the feeling that you just dont have enough units before you start useing ghost. would be really interested in some reps vs. hardcore speedling pump maybe even +1lings.

Zira

edit:
ah yeah what stormguy85 wrote! this is what i think will break that strat really easy.

goszar

Belarus119 Posts

April 26 2010 09:58 GMT

#45

Nice strat, very creative.
But I have noticed the following strange thing in your screenshots: every Zerg lost a lot of drones to Hellions. Why is that still an issue for Plat players? When I go Eco or Tech build, I always put 1 spine crawler near each mineral line and place my queens in a way that can prevent bypassing. Haven't lost a single drone to Hellions for a few weeks.

Mente

United States288 Posts

April 27 2010 22:15 GMT

#46

I don't think this build is very effective. Once they see hellions the zerg is switching to roaches. So much for ghosts?

Sieg

Canada42 Posts

May 02 2010 07:39 GMT

#47

I like this, usually I just pump out some extra Marines to deal with Zerg muta at that stage of the game, but Ghost/Nuke is a lot sexier...

mrlie3

Canada350 Posts

May 06 2010 14:39 GMT

#48

The guide has been updated! Patch 10 replay is added as well as discussion for counter-build. =)

I will continue to polish this build as it has worked really really well for me.

VdH

Romania78 Posts

May 06 2010 15:07 GMT

#49

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=122628

This is a great replay demonstrating the strategy. Top notch korean players going at it and the terran wins with his awesome use of ghosts and hellions.

mrlie3

Canada350 Posts

May 06 2010 15:29 GMT

#50

On May 07 2010 00:07 VdH wrote:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=122628

This is a great replay demonstrating the strategy. Top notch korean players going at it and the terran wins with his awesome use of ghosts and hellions.

I will check this replay and maybe post it on demonstration section tonight. Thanks for the link VdH! =)

nimbaba

1 Post

May 27 2010 17:04 GMT

#51

Hi everyone!

I recently started to watch Day9 videos and I eventually came across Jinro's ghost in tvz.
I really liked the strat for some reason and started playing online a lot just for fun.

I was really surprised how well I was doing in tvz even though I'm not a very strong player. I don't really know any solid build orders or anything, I just do stuff when I feel it a good time to do them but I think with 3 rax, 1 tech and 2 reactor and +1 upgrade with shield are very dangerous against a zerg that is not expecting a ghost push.

I think the snipe round ability is very strong and can really tuen the tide of a game if used correctly. With a good timing attack, 4-5 ghosts and a bunch of shielded marines can destroy an early zerg force.

Banelings are the most dangerous thing I encoutered with this strat as it requires a lot of skill to snipe them banelings .. but still doable.

Here are some replays I played against platinum/diamond players.

http://rapidshare.com/files/392188914/ghost.rar.html

I'm still learning so any tips/comments on my gameplay are welcome!
Enjoy

Santriel

Belgium33 Posts

May 27 2010 19:09 GMT

#52

Something people never seem to remember:

Once you land a nuke and you ghost has more than 70 energy left, you can make another nuke and successfully launch it without uncloaking your ghost.

Just put him on hold fire. Most enemies will figure he died in the explosion or simply went away. People NEVER expect you to just camp there and re-nuke their asses immediately after.

kusu

Sweden440 Posts

July 10 2010 23:10 GMT

#53

So now when phase two is up... Does this buid work anymore? I'd like to see an update !:D

And more replays !

MythicalMage

1360 Posts

July 11 2010 00:46 GMT

#54

On July 11 2010 08:10 kusu wrote:
So now when phase two is up... Does this buid work anymore? I'd like to see an update !:D

And more replays !

Ditto!

Acidlineup

123 Posts

July 11 2010 06:27 GMT

#55

I did a guide how to make this strat. even more effective by having a ghost, cloak, medvac and nuke by 5.30 realtime wich is the fastest u can get, but ppl started bashing that topic so it was closed.
basically the trick is to go for 9 gas, so u will have enough for early nuke and heavy tech, but also that can be countered easily by early aggression/.

iNdo-Man

United States191 Posts

July 12 2010 09:11 GMT

#56

On July 11 2010 15:27 Acidlineup wrote:
I did a guide how to make this strat. even more effective by having a ghost, cloak, medvac and nuke by 5.30 realtime wich is the fastest u can get, but ppl started bashing that topic so it was closed.
basically the trick is to go for 9 gas, so u will have enough for early nuke and heavy tech, but also that can be countered easily by early aggression/.

ya, that is a straight up nuke rush.. where as I have taken this build and really molded it into a viable opener that takes me through the early game into the mid game with lots of viable options and defense from most popular zerg play. I would just like to say that only after playing it a few times I am rreeeaaalllllyyyyy liking what you can do with this bo until something drastically changes i'm going to use it permanently in my TvZ.

Here's a similar post where I talked quite a bit about defending muta rush and some of the zerg's options after this opening http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=135630#6

-i'll stress that i've used it against a heavy ling to infestor build and both a fe and late expanding zerg

-I think with good control and quick hands you can power through some of the early timings a little quicker.. I like the gas at 13 and and normally I get to 16 before OC. I start the 2 marines immediately after rax finishes and finish the wall. my 2nd marine is 18 and I'm building gas as my OC finishes
Finishing the wall can be as easy as building your factory next to the rax so that you can swap them really quickly and ur hellions then come out on your ramp! this protects from baneling bust too.

-I get nuke first instead of cloak send it to their natural cliff
+ Show Spoiler +

early enough you dont need cloak, especially vs a roach or ling heavy zerg
also... I aimed the nuke on HIGH GROUND near an edge that is close to the drone line... Zerg cannot see the high ground unless he has spotting ovi and the nuke normally kills all unsuspecting drones at natural (this has worked specifically for me on maps like Kulas Ravine, LT, Destination)

-In a practice game, a queen could reach the ghost and was attacking it during the nuke, however, with medivac standing by and the ghost being on high ground.. there was no question of whether the ghost would survive. He did not die to the blast either. However, even though all the drones had evacuated, he lost 2 queens and 20 seconds of mining time. that is equivalent to ~ 600 minerals theoretically, preventing zergs ability to enter the mid-game with any sort of punctuality.

--Holding the natural
If you can drop on a map with a nice big cliff by their natural like LT or Kulas Ravine you can have ghost, 2 scv, and marine in ur drop..
build bunker, build turret and now u can defend and be an even bigger pain. force zerg to rebuild 2nd base at a 3rd that is harder for him to defend.

Starport landing on your first Reactor Core
+ Show Spoiler +

After 4 hellions are finished it's time to transition into the deep mid-game by making tanks for the obvious counter to hellions (roaches/hydra) lift my factory and and I can fly starport into reactor core.

What I like the most about this build is that it keeps the pressure on zerg so hard throughout the entire early-game and into the mid-game. There is no major sacrifice on econ in this bo even though one might think there could be.

I build a cc early enough, along with ebay for PF if the zerg continues all-in counters or goes super heavy 2 base roach. build New wall with ebay and upgrade cc into PF immediately after landing in nat. This is going to be somewhere between your first and second nuke. Also you should have atleast 1 -2 tanks from ur fact that you switched to tech lab right after hellions finished.

I bunker, walll with ebay, PF and then nuke again. and now I'm usually equal base with a zerg who keeps having to rebuild drones or atleast had to pull workers 2x (worse-case scenario if you didn't kill the hatch after 2 nukes)

ebay allows for turret if mutas come out quickly after nuke #1 as well as protection from burrowed roach builds

2 nukes and now what?

+ Show Spoiler +

Medivac if i'm doing heavy drops to kill zerg's 3rd or prevent their 4th
-or-
pump viking if i want to support tank/maurader heavy mid-game army and push across the map against a 2 base zerg who's trying to bust me with roaches.

Continue to counter zerg as you have had plenty of time to see what zerg is doing. You never really have to commit so much to a specific unit with this strat b/c effectively keeping zerg on the defense lets you evaluate what units they are building all the way into the midgame before you have to choose your army composition. I just keep it very generic until my natural is up and running.
what I mean by that is:
3 tanks, 5-10 marines(based on transition into bio), 2-4 mauraders(more if heavy roach), 1-3 ghosts, 1-2 medivacs, vikings if I want to harass overlords and keep up pressure
...as your natural starts to bring in the money, I am experimenting with the best options to get rid of this quick influx in cash. I think I'm going to start with having 1 scv build consecutive barracks following the natural expand until I get 2-3 barracks that I can support consistently.

I have taken the build into the late game where zeg had ultras but the tanks in tank mode rape them.. Use tanks to FF on ultras while bio FF on lings and its over.. especially by playing choke points correctly...a wide open battle field allows zerg to gain the advantage with numbers in the 2nd CHUNK and into the 3rd CHUNK (lol day[9] reference) of the game.

Shaithis

United States383 Posts

August 26 2010 16:50 GMT

#57

Bumping for more discussion on ghosts in TvZ.

Randomaccount#77123

United States5003 Posts

August 26 2010 17:08 GMT

#58

--- Nuked ---

bombcar

United States68 Posts

August 26 2010 17:12 GMT

#59

A nuke destroys every single static defense in the game, I believe.

hoor3x

United States100 Posts

September 12 2010 23:36 GMT

#60

you mention a shift-click snipe. how do you do it? ive tried in a private game for a while and cant figure it out.

DeCoup

Australia1933 Posts

September 13 2010 00:31 GMT

#61

On September 13 2010 08:36 hoor3x wrote:
you mention a shift-click snipe. how do you do it? ive tried in a private game for a while and cant figure it out.

Don't use shift, just hold r and spam leftclick on the targets.

pred10122

United States6 Posts

February 19 2011 00:34 GMT

#62

is this still a viable strat? I would really like to use it but i'm thinking some of the timings might be messed up on the new patch.

ChuckJagoda

United States27 Posts

February 19 2011 03:57 GMT

#63

Im going to play around with this sometime soon, I think I might reactor hellion expand rather than 1 base

Blazinghand

United States25550 Posts

February 19 2011 04:19 GMT

#64

On April 22 2010 01:26 mrlie3 wrote:What's more amazing is that Ghosts do not have any armor type, which makes even units like Roaches can only be soft counter to Ghosts. Effective use of Snipes and kiting can easily kill off Roaches as well.

+ Show Spoiler +

Roaches do not deal bonus damage to Armor or Light; they deal the same damage to all target, so the fact that Ghosts are just Biological/Psionic doesn't actually reduce Roach damage.

Also, although Ghosts have more range the Roaches, the Roaches move the same speed, without any upgrades or on creep. Add Roach Speed or Creep and kiting is unrealistic.

EDIT: I realize that the OP was posted in a previous patch. Things may have been different. Disregard this post.

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