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Aether
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada123 Posts
April 20 2010 04:55 GMT
#21
The problem is that the cycle isn't long enough to support 3 miners at that distance. The cycle will always be interrupted by the third probe wandering off.
To answer your questions: No, I'm not that Aether and it is pronounced ee-thur. :)
AssuredVacancy
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1167 Posts
April 20 2010 05:01 GMT
#22
On April 20 2010 13:55 Aether wrote:
The problem is that the cycle isn't long enough to support 3 miners at that distance. The cycle will always be interrupted by the third probe wandering off.


So what you're saying is, the AI intentionally moves the third worker away, causing a decrease in mining rate?

What if you had patch num x 3 workers mining where there would be 3 workers per patch? Would the third worker still move away?
We spend our youth attaining wealth, and our wealth attaining youth.
Aether
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada123 Posts
April 20 2010 05:06 GMT
#23
yes, exactly. Since all the mineral patches that support 3 workers are already fully saturated the wandering worker can only successfully mine if it lands on a 2 worker node during the brief window it is unoccupied, which will simply send one of the original 2 wandering again.
To answer your questions: No, I'm not that Aether and it is pronounced ee-thur. :)
HTX
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany265 Posts
April 20 2010 05:17 GMT
#24
+1 for Starcraftscience

nicely done!
The internet: a horrible collective liar
NeoLearner
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Belgium1847 Posts
April 20 2010 06:42 GMT
#25
Nice, +1 for the scientific method
Seem very counter intuitive but I so want to try this for myself.

Does someone see a way Blizzard could fix this? If they knew this, I would presume they would try and fix it. They are quite strict in starcraft 2 in making the intuitive thing the absolute best it seems...
Bankai - Correlation does not imply causation
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
April 20 2010 06:51 GMT
#26
Oh hey that's pretty cool to note... I'll have to think about like if I ever set myself up on a high yield.

Also, do you mean like one spot away diagonally? Or like one spot away in one direction?
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
Aether
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada123 Posts
April 20 2010 06:54 GMT
#27
if the minerals are on 2 sides of the HQ then it's 1 space diagonally, but if they're in a straight line it's just one space in the opposite direction. Basically if you build a Nexus or whatever, and then you try to place another Nexus over the corner, it should look like your original Nexus has a green moat.
To answer your questions: No, I'm not that Aether and it is pronounced ee-thur. :)
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
April 20 2010 06:59 GMT
#28
this actually gv us a consideration as a zerg player, number of workers population.

do you want more workers so that your armysize will be smaller or less worker with a huge army size? the cap still 200 so i dont think increasing number of workers will help you that much unless u want to be like movie vs Flash and exp like crazy and try to mine out b4 your foe
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
Aether
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada123 Posts
April 20 2010 07:02 GMT
#29
On April 20 2010 15:59 NB wrote:
this actually gv us a consideration as a zerg player, number of workers population.

do you want more workers so that your armysize will be smaller or less worker with a huge army size? the cap still 200 so i dont think increasing number of workers will help you that much unless u want to be like movie vs Flash and exp like crazy and try to mine out b4 your foe


That's why I said it is impractical to use it on normal mineral fields. High yields though only result in 3-4 extra workers, and if you're in a macro battle that leads to you mining out an entire high yield, your food is probably in the high one-hundreds anyway.
To answer your questions: No, I'm not that Aether and it is pronounced ee-thur. :)
ptell
Profile Joined October 2009
United States103 Posts
April 20 2010 07:04 GMT
#30
Hey aether, I am convinced by your argument but does making your HQ slightly further affect the gas mining efficiency? Have you tested this?
Aether
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada123 Posts
April 20 2010 07:12 GMT
#31
I have and there is no noticeable difference. It still peaks at 122 per guyser. If there's a difference at all it's like a fraction of 1 gas per minute. I even tested it with 4 guysers to see if a small difference would make itself more apparent through multiplication, but the numbers stayed consistent. 488 peak 122 per guyser.
To answer your questions: No, I'm not that Aether and it is pronounced ee-thur. :)
Thamoo
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada234 Posts
April 20 2010 07:17 GMT
#32
On April 20 2010 16:12 Aether wrote:
I have and there is no noticeable difference. It still peaks at 122 per guyser. If there's a difference at all it's like a fraction of 1 gas per minute. I even tested it with 4 guysers to see if a small difference would make itself more apparent through multiplication, but the numbers stayed consistent. 488 peak 122 per guyser.


Isn't it supposed to be 180 per guysers (60 per worker)? Thought I read somewhere that workers mines mineral and gaz at the same rate (60/minute).

Great work btw! Will definitivly incorporate that in my play when I get a gold expo up =D
wat?
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
April 20 2010 07:20 GMT
#33
I'd like to see a replay with proof. So far you've thrown in a lot of numbers, but I have trouble believing that it will finish a whole minute faster than the expo that's placed closer to the min line.

Replays please.
kostja
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany7 Posts
April 20 2010 07:26 GMT
#34
Mining on Metalopolis
Aether
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada123 Posts
April 20 2010 07:34 GMT
#35
The mining rate for both resources is equal, but I calculated the average to be around 40 or so. This could be the result of several things, such as the manner in which the replay income calculator updates, or the fact that mineral nodes are staggered.

The important thing is that the numbers are consistent relative to each other. I observed that on a normal field
8 = 325MPM
16= 650MPM
and guysers = 122 GPM
which all work out to a little over 40 resources per worker per minute.
To answer your questions: No, I'm not that Aether and it is pronounced ee-thur. :)
s031720
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden383 Posts
April 20 2010 07:34 GMT
#36
I love the work youve put in to this, and as people confirm your numbers the whining nay-sayers will disapear with the tail between their legs.

It sounds like youve found something noone ever thought about before; building your expo one step away increases your income with quite a bit as long as you can saturate enough. This sounds like something terran can easily exploit, building his expo as usual, but once it is saturated lift it off and move it one square for an extra 100minerals per minute.

Awesome!
Just another noob
sk`
Profile Joined November 2008
Japan442 Posts
April 20 2010 07:42 GMT
#37
So... if the node is in closest spacing, ideal worker count is roughly 2.5. +1 off and it is 3 and yields more than 2.5. Plausible... potentially plausible in SC1 as well...
www.pureesports.com
Aether
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada123 Posts
April 20 2010 07:46 GMT
#38
On April 20 2010 16:26 kostja wrote:
Mining on Metalopolis


thanks

I did most of my tests with protoss by the way. All workers MUST collect minerals at the same pace, so that should be irrelevant, but it's nice to see it done with another race.

I would've uploaded my replay of my tests, but I didn't think anyone would want to watch me mining out mineral fields on an empty map when they could just test it themselves. I was minimizing while the workers mined too, so there are parts where nothing happens in the replay for like a half an hour because I'm watching a show or something, heh.

As you can see from his replay though, it finishes a little under a minute faster, AND that is with the normal placement being over-saturated. There are 4 extra drones basically going to waste due to oversaturation.

I should note one thing though, the results of these tests don't account for Terrans using MULEs. I haven't done any kind of calculations for that, I'm thinking that it would still be better than the normal placement, but the gap wouldn't be as large. Possibly even counter-beneficial depending on how the MULEs are timed and how many of them you intend to use.
To answer your questions: No, I'm not that Aether and it is pronounced ee-thur. :)
kenhennen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
29 Posts
April 20 2010 07:48 GMT
#39
brilliant thinking. no matter if it's gonna be huge or not, great ideas
thanks for replay kostja
--- www.alsber.com ---
Aether
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada123 Posts
April 20 2010 07:50 GMT
#40
On April 20 2010 16:42 sk` wrote:
So... if the node is in closest spacing, ideal worker count is roughly 2.5. +1 off and it is 3 and yields more than 2.5. Plausible... potentially plausible in SC1 as well...


Yeah, I know it seems very counter-intuitive. The thing that really changes things is the fact that probes won't wait at the closer mineral fields. If they waited and only mined the node you assigned them to this wouldn't work, but because they ultimately wander off to look for another node increasing the distance to allow for full saturation actually helps.
To answer your questions: No, I'm not that Aether and it is pronounced ee-thur. :)
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